BADUNAME37
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You could go around with an AR with ten 30-round magazines and under certain circumstances you may still "feel" outgunned.
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Have you ever felt "undergunned" while carrying?
- Thread starter MikePGS
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Gun Slinger
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MikePGS: said:
Mikey-
I am all too familiar with the greater Metro Detroit Area (I live in N.W. Ohio) and even though I can carry in Detroit (under LEOSA2004) I still refuse to go there because the environment there is quite hostile and has been for quite some time. There was a time when I might have considered following I-75 through the city however, with the current massive construction and detours that require leaving the Interstate System, I defer the use of the inner city surface streets as an alternate route in preference to following 23N then crossing eastward, if need be, along I-96 or I-94 to get where I need to go. Although it is somewhat extreme and costs a little more in terms of fuel and time, my safety, health and happiness is worth every penny of it.
Haven't been through Detroit for well over a year now and it was bad when I was last through the city while in the line of duty (an extradition trip) almost two years prior to that. I can't imagine what it must be like now that the economy has slipped into the near depression that it has, but I don't see myself ever returning in light of what you have said above.
While it is impossible to guarantee that you will not find yourself backed into the proverbial "corner", adequate vigilance and an eye towards staying clear of the "trouble spots" in the first place (unless you are absolutely compelled to go there) goes a very, very long way towards, reducing the chance that you will get into such a predicament.
I agree with what DarkSoldier says with regard to engaging multiple attackers. While the odds of survival are much reduced, they are not zero either and if you are determined to do what you need to do to get out alive then it is entirely possible. The likelihood of serious injury is also present and greatly increased but, the alternative- "giving up", virtually guarantees your demise as well as that of those whom you may be trying to protect and as such is just not acceptable in my opinion. In such an unlikely "worst case scenario", they may ultimately "get me", but not until I have made every effort to make it cost them quite dearly in terms of the loss of life, pain and blood.
KINGMAX
Member
extra ammo please
I always carry extra ammo: GLOCK 21 w/ 4 mags = 3 w/ 13 rounds and 1 w/ 10 rounds, adds up to 49 ready to go. My S&W 686 loaded w/ 5 and 3 speed loaders w/ 6 each adds up to 23 ready to go, plus I always have an open box of 38 +P's in the truck.
I commute through DURHAM NC 
to get to work, enough said !!!!!!!
I always carry extra ammo: GLOCK 21 w/ 4 mags = 3 w/ 13 rounds and 1 w/ 10 rounds, adds up to 49 ready to go. My S&W 686 loaded w/ 5 and 3 speed loaders w/ 6 each adds up to 23 ready to go, plus I always have an open box of 38 +P's in the truck.
I commute through DURHAM NC to get to work, enough said !!!!!!!anythingshiny
Member
HAHAH..i travel thru dur-hate nc too on occ.. can be some bumpy neighborhoods there.
I carry either a G19 with 1 extra of the HKUSPc 45..with one extra, so I do not ever feel undergunned.
I carry either a G19 with 1 extra of the HKUSPc 45..with one extra, so I do not ever feel undergunned.
wyocarp
Member
If you feel undergunned, buy a different gun.
mljdeckard
Member
No. No matter what pistol I was carrying, other than to remember that my main plan is to get away and get to a rifle as soon as possible.
It doesn't matter how many rounds your pistol has. You need to assume it will malfunction and you will wind up switching mags anyway. If you are staring down six bad guys, by yourself, all of whom are really a big enough threat that you really need to shoot them, an MP-5 probably wouldn't save you. I have carried up to 52 rounds with my Glock, and I am currently down to 19 rounds with my 1911. I carry an extra magazine to clear a malfunction, not to have more rounds. Real life doesn't happen Mel Gibson style, when I HAVE to fire 15 rounds or more without reloading. If that isn't enough, I am way out of handgunville and walking to rifletown.
This comes back to situational awareness and mindset. Your plan should always have you tracking where you are and what you are doing, and what you will do if something bad happens. (It's usually to get out the back door.) Go to a public place. Carry a phone if you carry a gun. (Keep the phone when you CAN'T carry a gun.) Get some books on living a tactical lifestyle in general. (Clint Smith and Massad Ayoob come to mind.)
About 12 years ago, at about midnight, I was at a McD's in Salt Lake City with a friend of mine and his new wife. She knew I carried and she was curious. A carload of individuals....very much fitting the profile for high-risk came into the store. There were other.....high-risk people yelling at them from outside the store. Spanish isn't one of the four languages I speak, but their tone was universal. We were at the back sitting down in a corner, they were at the front counter. After a few minutes, four police cars showed up and started cuffing people outside.
So she asked me, "What would you have done?" "Absolutely nothing. Look at it. We are cornered in, we can't go anywhere. There are a dozen of them, there is one of me. If I pull out a gun and try to discern which one I should shoot, I pick the one with the gun I can see, how many more guns are there I CAN'T see? They didn't bother me, I didn't bother them. People who are PAID to take terrible risks came and did so. All I'm going to do is go somewhere else next time."
It doesn't matter how many rounds your pistol has. You need to assume it will malfunction and you will wind up switching mags anyway. If you are staring down six bad guys, by yourself, all of whom are really a big enough threat that you really need to shoot them, an MP-5 probably wouldn't save you. I have carried up to 52 rounds with my Glock, and I am currently down to 19 rounds with my 1911. I carry an extra magazine to clear a malfunction, not to have more rounds. Real life doesn't happen Mel Gibson style, when I HAVE to fire 15 rounds or more without reloading. If that isn't enough, I am way out of handgunville and walking to rifletown.
This comes back to situational awareness and mindset. Your plan should always have you tracking where you are and what you are doing, and what you will do if something bad happens. (It's usually to get out the back door.) Go to a public place. Carry a phone if you carry a gun. (Keep the phone when you CAN'T carry a gun.) Get some books on living a tactical lifestyle in general. (Clint Smith and Massad Ayoob come to mind.)
About 12 years ago, at about midnight, I was at a McD's in Salt Lake City with a friend of mine and his new wife. She knew I carried and she was curious. A carload of individuals....very much fitting the profile for high-risk came into the store. There were other.....high-risk people yelling at them from outside the store. Spanish isn't one of the four languages I speak, but their tone was universal. We were at the back sitting down in a corner, they were at the front counter. After a few minutes, four police cars showed up and started cuffing people outside.
So she asked me, "What would you have done?" "Absolutely nothing. Look at it. We are cornered in, we can't go anywhere. There are a dozen of them, there is one of me. If I pull out a gun and try to discern which one I should shoot, I pick the one with the gun I can see, how many more guns are there I CAN'T see? They didn't bother me, I didn't bother them. People who are PAID to take terrible risks came and did so. All I'm going to do is go somewhere else next time."
wyocarp
Member
Wow, a good reason to have more gun.
Thoughts: no gun is too light and small when you have to lug it around all day and no gun is too big and heavy when the SHTF. Only you can really decide the balance between those two realities. More gun and less comfort or more comfort and less gun? I generally chose the former myself.
I used to feel under gunned with my S&W 642 when off duty so I started carrying a G23. I've been carrying a gun everyday I'm out of the house for the last 13 years. I've finally gotten to the point where I like to enjoy my off time without having a larger handgun stuck in my pants. I'm now going back to the J frame off duty only in .357 this time. I prefer not to get involved in situations off duty. I would rather be an excellent witness to avoid being killed or getting my wife killed. The only time I would feel the need for more firepower is during another mall shooting, terrorist attack.
makarovnik
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Yes.
rfwobbly
Member
Just as if there were six of you and he started shooting, people would scatter pretty fast. So I rather think the converse would be true. Thieves do what they do because they want easy money, not because they are willing to make any sacrifices or endure any trouble. This is born out by a lot of the stories in the American Rifleman each month. Some citizen merely produces a gun and the bad guys start burning shoe leather.
The only time I've felt "undergunned," did not have anything to do with "bad guys:" it had to do with a Black bear.
Several years ago, when I lived in Calif., my wife and I had a vacation home up in the southern Sierra, in Tulare County, on the western slope at about 6,000 feet altitude. Our property was bounded on two sides by the Sequoia Nat'l. Forest.
Many, many times I walked for quite a distance up into the forest, just exploring, enjoying the beauty and quiet of the forest and mountains. I never left the house for my walk/hike, without being armed.
If I carried my .22 LR rifle, I also carried a heavy caliber handgun, i.e., .41 Mag., .45 Colt., .44 Mag., .45 ACP, etc. If I carried a .22 pistol or revolver, I carried my Marlin 336, .30-30.
One afternoon, I was shooting some ground squirrels that had been feasting on the roots of my two apple trees. Afterward, I decided to go up into the forest and as I had my Browning Challenger .22 LR pistol in a holster on my belt already, just hopped across the fence and proceeded up into the trees.
About a mile from home, I decided to angle off down into a draw where I knew of a tiny spring, for a drink of fresh water. As I got near the spring, I suddenly spied a movement behind an old fallen pine by the spring. Suddenly, without warning, a large Black bear stood up quickly, looked at me, made that "woof!" they do, and immediately dropped back on all fours and came around the log toward me.
I pulled out that little .22 pistol, wishing I had a rifle somewhere along the line of a .416 Rigby. Talk about feeling "undergunned," I surely did!
That bear looked at me and I looked at it. I very slowly started backing off, trying to make myself not turn and run as I knew that would be a mistake. As I inched away, the bear took a couple of steps toward me, then "woofed" again, and slowly turned and angled off away from the spring.
I went home, looking over my shoulder all the way.
I am very glad I did not have to use that .22 pistol. I never again went out into the boonies --ANYWHERE -- without either a good centerfire rifle, or a heavy caliber handgun. That was years ago: holds true for me today.
FWIW.
EDIT: I should have added that the bear and I were about 25/30 feet apart, when I drew my pistol.
L.W.
Several years ago, when I lived in Calif., my wife and I had a vacation home up in the southern Sierra, in Tulare County, on the western slope at about 6,000 feet altitude. Our property was bounded on two sides by the Sequoia Nat'l. Forest.
Many, many times I walked for quite a distance up into the forest, just exploring, enjoying the beauty and quiet of the forest and mountains. I never left the house for my walk/hike, without being armed.
If I carried my .22 LR rifle, I also carried a heavy caliber handgun, i.e., .41 Mag., .45 Colt., .44 Mag., .45 ACP, etc. If I carried a .22 pistol or revolver, I carried my Marlin 336, .30-30.
One afternoon, I was shooting some ground squirrels that had been feasting on the roots of my two apple trees. Afterward, I decided to go up into the forest and as I had my Browning Challenger .22 LR pistol in a holster on my belt already, just hopped across the fence and proceeded up into the trees.
About a mile from home, I decided to angle off down into a draw where I knew of a tiny spring, for a drink of fresh water. As I got near the spring, I suddenly spied a movement behind an old fallen pine by the spring. Suddenly, without warning, a large Black bear stood up quickly, looked at me, made that "woof!" they do, and immediately dropped back on all fours and came around the log toward me.
I pulled out that little .22 pistol, wishing I had a rifle somewhere along the line of a .416 Rigby. Talk about feeling "undergunned," I surely did!
That bear looked at me and I looked at it. I very slowly started backing off, trying to make myself not turn and run as I knew that would be a mistake. As I inched away, the bear took a couple of steps toward me, then "woofed" again, and slowly turned and angled off away from the spring.
I went home, looking over my shoulder all the way.
I am very glad I did not have to use that .22 pistol. I never again went out into the boonies --ANYWHERE -- without either a good centerfire rifle, or a heavy caliber handgun. That was years ago: holds true for me today.
FWIW.
EDIT: I should have added that the bear and I were about 25/30 feet apart, when I drew my pistol.
L.W.
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spyderdude
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Everyone I know that packs heat carries a big bore or some type of rather powerful handgun. A few guys I know carry .45s and one other guy carries a Glock 20 10mm Auto. I personally choose to carry 9mm because it is the cartridge I can shoot most accurately under rapid fire. I sometimes feel under gunned around them, but I keep reminding myself that no matter what caliber I go with, shot placement will be the factor in stopping a potential threat. Living in Alaska also poses the risk of running into huge animals such as Moose and Bears. I know there is no way I could easily stop a bear with 9mm, but I often stay within city limits anyway, and rarely see bears. I do see Moose quite often, but they keep to themselves.
Deanimator
Member
You're only "undergunned" if you're unarmed.
I'd rather not face an AKM with a Ruger MkII. I'd much rather do that than face one with a thrown rock like those poor devils in India.
A 158gr. LSWC-HP in the eye beats a magazine full of 7.62x39mm that misses EVERY time.
If you have an AKM and I shoot you in the head, what's yours becomes mine.
I'd rather not face an AKM with a Ruger MkII. I'd much rather do that than face one with a thrown rock like those poor devils in India.
A 158gr. LSWC-HP in the eye beats a magazine full of 7.62x39mm that misses EVERY time.
If you have an AKM and I shoot you in the head, what's yours becomes mine.
Nicky Santoro
Member
Going up against 6 armed and determined people might as well be put the barrel in your mouth... you have a better chance of surving.
In an SD situation, after you shoot the first one or two, most likely all you will see is backsides and elbows disappearing as fast as they can manage. This is not war, it's street crime. I've seen both. In my war they kept coming until you killed them all. In my experience with street crime, once you present the deterrent, they unass the area with alacrity. They want your wallet, not a lung full of hollow points. Luckily, I've never had to shoot on the street.
Your personal experience may vary.
In an SD situation, after you shoot the first one or two, most likely all you will see is backsides and elbows disappearing as fast as they can manage. This is not war, it's street crime. I've seen both. In my war they kept coming until you killed them all. In my experience with street crime, once you present the deterrent, they unass the area with alacrity. They want your wallet, not a lung full of hollow points. Luckily, I've never had to shoot on the street.
Your personal experience may vary.
Knives
Member
Alas, my CCW has expired (going to rectify that soon) but when I did carry, I carried a 1911 and never felt undergunned.
Use enough gun
I carry a Smith M&P40 with 155grn Ranger hollow points. I never feel under gunned. I would pick a .380 over a .22 and i would pick a .40 over a 9mm. For my pocket carry i carry a .357 with 140grn hollow points. No one ever wished they had carried a smaller round when they were in a gun fight.
I carry a Smith M&P40 with 155grn Ranger hollow points. I never feel under gunned. I would pick a .380 over a .22 and i would pick a .40 over a 9mm. For my pocket carry i carry a .357 with 140grn hollow points. No one ever wished they had carried a smaller round when they were in a gun fight.
420Stainless
Member
I would only feel undergunned if my attacker had:
Since none of those has happened to me, and I don't envision any of them happening to me, I happily go about my business most often with a single stack or sometimes a Detective Special and no re-loads. Most any self-defense situation I would likely encounter should be resolved with one good shot from most any caliber. I'd have to make the good shot, but that is still required whether I have six rounds or 50. Although - I guess the case could be made that if you spray enough lead around, all but the most determined attacker would turn tail and leave the scene whether hit or not.
If I were in law enforcement, or some other occupation which required deliberatly placing myself in dangerous situations then I would want enough guns and ammo to get through a three gun match.
- Full Automatic or harsher
- a rifle from long distance
- 6 suicidal friends that would carry the attack to the end no matter what
Since none of those has happened to me, and I don't envision any of them happening to me, I happily go about my business most often with a single stack or sometimes a Detective Special and no re-loads. Most any self-defense situation I would likely encounter should be resolved with one good shot from most any caliber. I'd have to make the good shot, but that is still required whether I have six rounds or 50. Although - I guess the case could be made that if you spray enough lead around, all but the most determined attacker would turn tail and leave the scene whether hit or not.
If I were in law enforcement, or some other occupation which required deliberatly placing myself in dangerous situations then I would want enough guns and ammo to get through a three gun match.
Blacksmoke
Member
Last time I felt "undergunned" was while cruising in the Pacific Ocean. We ran into a ship called "Yamato". I felt we were seriously undergunned. Somehow we managed to come out ahead, though.
That was supposed to be funny. I guess it laid an egg.
That was supposed to be funny. I guess it laid an egg.
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jc650
Member
I carry an MP 340 for the most part. Sometimes I also carry a speed strip sometimes I dont. In my surroundings I feel comfortable with 5 ready to go with 5 more in my pocket.
I try to stay away from potential problem areas, but in this day trouble seems to be popping up in less likely places all the time.
I really felt more of a need to carry when I had kids and knew that getting away from trouble would be much more difficult with little kids.
I try to stay away from potential problem areas, but in this day trouble seems to be popping up in less likely places all the time.
I really felt more of a need to carry when I had kids and knew that getting away from trouble would be much more difficult with little kids.
My carry choice is a Glock 26.
So, my antagonist would either have to be carring a rifle or shotgun (which will most likely be seen in time for me to get to cover or maybe even far far away), or have lots of buddies with him to make me feel outgunned.
I might also feel outgunned if I only had a revolver. No offense to revolver lovers but MY skill with one is not something I am confident enough with to use as my primary carry gun.
So, my antagonist would either have to be carring a rifle or shotgun (which will most likely be seen in time for me to get to cover or maybe even far far away), or have lots of buddies with him to make me feel outgunned.
I might also feel outgunned if I only had a revolver. No offense to revolver lovers but MY skill with one is not something I am confident enough with to use as my primary carry gun.
george29
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Mike, you are a thinking person, congratulations. Truly. Armchair commando's will give you advice but not from their own experience, belittle your thinking or already know what is worth doing and what is not. They have seen it (once, maybe) or heard of it by their cousin's uncle's best-friend.
We hope for the best, we prepare for the worst. We are bound by rules that make little sense and we are constricted by a society that does not like law or law enforcement.
I won't give you advice but I will tell you my thoughts.
I'm too old to run, and even if I could I won't, never have. I have been on both ends of a gun, I have worn a blue uniform and now don't. I have seen sh*t happen until I was sure I had seen it all, and then something else would make me go "Wow!" There is no such thing as a given scenerio, each time is different. I don't think going against six guys is automatic death, not only have I in the past, many cops have as well. It's not the blue suit or the badge, it's your demeanor. If they believe you are capable of inflicting harm on them, they will leave you alone, they aren't stupid and no one I know volunteers to get shot. 6 guys with AK's are a different story. I am always armed with 3 handguns when I go out, a 642 in one pocket, a NAA in another, and a model 10 hanging from my shoulder. It's not a good combination and I am in the process of changing it. The model 10 will probably be replaced by a Rami 2075, it's smaller and carries more bullets and I trust the 9mm more than I do .38 special.
I went to McDonalds at midnight to pick up a burger, usually I don't go out after dark. I did this time and instead of the Model 10 I took my 5.5" SBH. Let no one tell you that being outnumbered is an automatic death, but using your mind wisely is your best defense and the best shooting is the one you avoid.
We hope for the best, we prepare for the worst. We are bound by rules that make little sense and we are constricted by a society that does not like law or law enforcement.
I won't give you advice but I will tell you my thoughts.
I'm too old to run, and even if I could I won't, never have. I have been on both ends of a gun, I have worn a blue uniform and now don't. I have seen sh*t happen until I was sure I had seen it all, and then something else would make me go "Wow!" There is no such thing as a given scenerio, each time is different. I don't think going against six guys is automatic death, not only have I in the past, many cops have as well. It's not the blue suit or the badge, it's your demeanor. If they believe you are capable of inflicting harm on them, they will leave you alone, they aren't stupid and no one I know volunteers to get shot. 6 guys with AK's are a different story. I am always armed with 3 handguns when I go out, a 642 in one pocket, a NAA in another, and a model 10 hanging from my shoulder. It's not a good combination and I am in the process of changing it. The model 10 will probably be replaced by a Rami 2075, it's smaller and carries more bullets and I trust the 9mm more than I do .38 special.
I went to McDonalds at midnight to pick up a burger, usually I don't go out after dark. I did this time and instead of the Model 10 I took my 5.5" SBH. Let no one tell you that being outnumbered is an automatic death, but using your mind wisely is your best defense and the best shooting is the one you avoid.
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