Hawaii - Man kills burglar in self defense. Charged with Murder 2.

[bigtuna]

(found this link posted on ar15.com)

News from the gun-friendly state of Hawaii.

http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070325/NEWS0601/703250364

Unfortunately, the way the police and media have handled this will probably not put using guns for self-defense in a favorable light.

 

[saltydog452]

Hawaii=Eastern Japan

 

[Erebus]

MAKAHA — One man was shot to death, one man was arrested and several others fled the scene in an early morning gunfight yesterday that appeared to be a botched robbery of a cockfighting operation, police said.

No sympathy from me. In Hawaii running cockfighting yields a charge of felony racketeering. I don't think this was a good shoot since it was during the commission of a felony.

 

[vis-à-vis]

So the shooter was running an illegal cockfighting operation and someone tried to rob him of his criminally earned profits?

Hmmm. I support self defense, but I would hesitate before supporting this man just yet.

 

[glockman19]

No sympathy for me either. He was engaging in an illegeal activity, cock fighting. It's like a drug dealer who kills someone trying to steal his stash.

 

[sansone]

cockfighting heh? maybe the whole group was dirty

 

[bigtuna]

I think the gambling issue may be separate from the self-defense issue.

If he was running an illegal cockfighting gambling operation, he should be charged for operating an illegal gambling establishment.

The way the article reads, it's not clear as to whether the man was shooting in self-defense _during_ the running of an illegal gambling operation. It just says that 3-4 men drove up to the house in the morning and began pounding on the front door.

Maybe he only runs the cockfights at night, or only on weekends. It may not have nothing to do with him being robbed and shooting in self-defense.

The fact that the shooter runs an illegal gambling operation, may be a reason for the police charge him with committing murder during the act of a felony, but I think it boils down to whether or not the man was running the illegal cockfights at the time he was shooting in self-defense.

As someone in the Hawaii hometown forum of AR15.com points out:

this is standard procedure by HPD for all shootings. shooter gets arrested for murder(or attempted murder if the guy lives). they do their investigation, if you are in the clear the DA does not pursue charges.

even police officers involved in on-duty shootings are arrested for murder/attempted murder. the only difference is police are released on their own recognizance...civilians need to be bailed out by an outsider.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

this is standard procedure by HPD for all shootings. shooter gets arrested for murder(or attempted murder if the guy lives). they do their investigation, if you are in the clear the DA does not pursue charges.

even police officers involved in on-duty shootings are arrested for murder/attempted murder. the only difference is police are released on their own recognizance...civilians need to be bailed out by an outsider.

That isn't an uncommon procedure in places a lot more gun-friendly than Hawaii either. If you have to shoot someone, even in self-defense, you should plan on being arrested. It may not happen, but you should plan on it.

 

[RealGun]

I wouldn't expect an automatic problem in SC. I keep reading stories where no charges were filed or culpability even mentioned. The police make the judgment on the spot. They have good reasons to make an arrest, or they don't. If something appears amiss or a shooting did not occur inside a home, a statutory problem with a retreat issue or "execution' question, then that's definitely going to be a problem.

Near as I can tell, communities are very supportive of successful home and self defense incidents. Juries in general would not be particularly hostile to a shooter.

I wouldn't doubt that there are exceptions, but there is certainly no automatic problem.

 

[atek3]

what's the matter with cockfighting?

 

[Professor K]

Yeah, cockfighting is OK I guess. It's a bit more noble than what chickens normally do their whole life on a regular farm...

This guy doesnt really seem like a nice guy with his arrest record, but the shot seems OK. Whether you run a cockfight, or drugdeal, or are a prostitute, whatever, if it's legitimate self defense, then you shouldnt be punished.

However, it looks like this guy had a big rap sheet already, so it's definitely going to court, probably will get thrown out at the end, though.

 

[k_dawg]

I know in many states, you do not have the right to self defense during the commision of a felony.

I.e. you can not be robbing a store at gun point, see a citizen pull out his gun and then shoot him and claim "self defense". I think this probably occurs most often during a drug deal gone back. Neither side can claim self defense.

In this case, the devil will be in the details.

 

[migoi]

My understanding..

is that at the time of the home invasion there wasn't any actual cockfighting going on, at least my reading of the fairly detail sparse reporting indicates that.

This 'arrest the guy left standing' protocol is pretty standard for HPD. A case not long ago involving a guy defending his abode with a knife illustrates that very well. Guy and his fiance were outside their apartment (front door opens to the parking area) when a person unknown (BG) to them approaches and starts agressive/unwanted verbal barrage and moves toward them. They retreated into their abode, called HPD. By the time HPD shows up the BG has disappeared into the surrounding area. Police leave.

Couple are again outside, BG shows back up starts same type of activities. Couple retreats into their abode, calls police. BG breaks a window either in the door or next to the door of the couple's abode. By the time HPD shows up BG has again disappeared into the surrounding area.

After police leave, couple goes outside to sweep up the broken glass. BG approaches for a third time, verbally agressive, moves rapidly toward the couple. They attempt a retreat, BG gets to them before they can get the door completely closed.

The woman falls or is knocked down, BG is on top of her. At this point the Good Guy has a reasonable belief the BG is about to do one or more of the "Big 5" (kill, cause serious bodily harm, rape, commit forcible sodomy, or kidnap) actions that justify use of deadly force in the state of Hawaii, to his fiance. He retrieves a knife from his kitchen and uses it to stop the BG in his actions. BG dies.

HPD is called for the third time...arrive and promptly arrest the Good Guy. Good Guy spends the night in jail and is released the next day with the DA stating it was a justifiable use of force and no charges will be filed.

Such is life in paradise.

migoi