He got into a gun fight with nothing

[ilbob]

18 year old with a Diploma/GED = Unarmed guard
21 year old with training = Armed Guard

I would bet typical armed guards are not any better educated than unarmed guards.

How much training do you think a typical armed guard actually needs?

Armed guards are not much more than armed citizens, and don't require much more training than that. The typical 20-40 hours states require of armed guards is probably adequate in most cases. The thing is not to forget they are not cops and have no obligation whatsoever to enforce laws (and probably should not try to enforce laws). They are there to protect the employer's property and the lives of people on the property. Thats it.

I don't think guards should carry any tools they don't know how to use. I would bet 99% of guards who carry handcuffs do not have much more than a vague clue on how to safely handcuff someone who is resisting. I took a class on it way back when, and trust me on this one, it is a whole lot harder than you think. A LOT. And if you are not careful, handcuffs can become a very dangerous weapon against you.

The guy that taught the handcuff class looked at all the cuffs we brought. Some of us had brands he approved of (mostly Peerless and S&W) and others he said were junk. One guy whose cuffs he said were junk challenegd him on it. He snapped the links holding the bracelets together in about 3 seconds. One guy had some cuffs made out of aluminum or some other soft metal that actually bent.

I think if you carry a stick or pepper spray it is a real good idea to get some actual training on using it. A stick is something pretty useful, and you can learn to be fairly effective in a half days training. I never carried pepper spray, sometimes I had a small canister of tear gas in a pocket.

 

[Green Lantern]

The mall management has been trying to battle crime.

with unarmed guards, it sounds like the mall is more concerned about fighting a bad image and liability problems...

BINGO. "Battle crime," my left foot.

If the guard were employed by my local mall....AND he'd managed to chase of the crooks without get hurt....

He'd likely be FIRED for violating company policy. Per the manager at the mall, their policy for their equally-unarmed guards is to "take details to give the police." That's about when I told her that we wouldn't be seeing each other again, and not to look for any of my loved ones in there again either.

Sounds like these blissninny managers have been watching too much "Highlander," taking their cue from the Watcher organization when it comes to customer safety: "Observe and record, but NEVER interfere!"

Anyone who thinks "mall security" is there to protect THEM, had better assume otherwise until they know for SURE.

My hat goes off to Mr. Copeland for trying to do the right thing, despite being hobbled by his idiot employers.

YES, nothing on a UPS truck is worth fighting for. But how about the DRIVER??? Sounds to me like Copeland didn't get involved until the driver put up a fight, thus putting his LIFE in danger. That's about where I'd have to step over my own "non-interference" line and get involved.

 

[Working Man]

18 year old with a Diploma/GED = Unarmed guard
21 year old with training = Armed Guard

I would bet typical armed guards are not any better educated than unarmed guards.

How much training do you think a typical armed guard actually needs?

I'm not referring to academics here. I just listed the minimum required for each.
As things are added on it affects the overhead of employing that individual.
To have an armed guard some training is required, as well as special/additional
insurance, and that position would typically pay more. Those all add to the cost
of Armed vs. Unarmed.

 

[ilbob]

I'm not referring to academics here. I just listed the minimum required for each. As things are added on it affects the overhead of employing that individual. To have an armed guard some training is required, as well as special/additional insurance, and that position would typically pay more. Those all add to the cost of Armed vs. Unarmed.

What makes you think armed guards are paid a whole lot more than unarmed guards?

What makes you think the guard companies are the ones paying for all this training you think armed guards are getting? A lot of guard companies hire mostly people who already have the required training.

And really, the liability insurance cost for armed versus unarmed guards for the guard company is not much difference. Armed guards just don't shoot people without good reason in any numbers.

 

[Green Lantern]

And really, the liability insurance cost for armed versus unarmed guards for the guard company is not much difference. Armed guards just don't shoot people without good reason in any numbers

And CCW holders don't shoot people without good reason EITHER, but "liability" is one of the main reason I hear for why employers and businesses prohibit CCW....

I would hardly be shocked to learn that the liability thing is naught but a scare tactic used by the antis (IE, "blood in the streets") to scare people into posting "rob me" signs....

 

[Revolver Ocelot]

I was a security gaurd at one point in time and when I was being trained I had to take the same handcuff and firearms training that the local leo did, the company that I worked for required that all gaurds be properly trained on any and all equipment they were expected to use, though I thought this was required by the state I could be mistaken.

 

[ilbob]

I was a security gaurd at one point in time and when I was being trained I had to take the same handcuff and firearms training that the local leo did, the company that I worked for required that all gaurds be properly trained on any and all equipment they were expected to use, though I thought this was required by the state I could be mistaken.

When I did my training, it was 30 hours, about 10 hours was firearms. I was told at the time that the Chicago PD academy at the time did 20 hours of firearms instruction (1979).

Of course they shot real bullets. We shot wax bullets powered by a primer at a rug hanging from a ceiling in a closet in downtown Chicago.

I worked with a retired CPD officer at the time. he said when he joined, the firearms training was 50 rounds of 38 special round nose single action. no pass/fail. Just shoot it up, and move on. He also said very few CPD officers bothered to do their annual re-qualification. I don't recall if they got paid for it and considered it a paid day off, or didn't get paid for it and figured they were not going to waste their own time on it.

He had a lot of good cop stories to tell. At that time, O'Hare airport was where they put many of the cops who were on limited duty. Some had casts and/or slings from broken bones, others were just not physically up to riding around in a car for a whole shift. He was at O'Hare for a couple years before retirement, which I gather was also common. After he told me that, the next time I was at O'Hare I looked closer at the cops, and sure enough he was right. Guys with knee braces seemed common. One guy I saw could barely walk.

 

[joab]

What makes you think armed guards are paid a whole lot more than unarmed guards?

What the individual guard makes and who pays for their training is not nearly as important as what the company can charge per day for an armed officer as opposed to an unarmed officer

 

[Freightman]

I drove a freight delivery truck for 30 years, we were told to leave the truck and call the police if anyone was stealing stuff. They told us we were not law enforcement and the truck was paid for. In fact we could be disciplined if we did intervene.

 

[ilbob]

What the individual guard makes and who pays for their training is not nearly as important as what the company can charge per day for an armed officer as opposed to an unarmed officer

I would bet there is not all that much difference. There wasn't when I worked security. People are still cheap. Even the ones that want armed guards.

 

[joab]

I have no idea what the actual cost is but my guess is at least 50% more for armed

 

[Mikebnice]

http://drhelen.blogspot.com/2006/11/no-gun-no-chance.html

 

[gunsmith]

I've done both unarmed and armed

Armed paid better, at least 2 to 5 $ an hour better, plus you can deduct training, range time, ammo etc at tax time.
If you're already a gunnie thats a very good thing.

Back to the topic, the security guard made a tragic mistake.

No cop would run into a situation like that because their training and policy wouldn't allow it.

One against 3 is terrible odds, even if they are not armed.

I would say that even in CA you wouldn't be prosecuted for shooting the 3 bad guys if they were un armed because it is reasonable to assume 3 guys beating on one could lead to serious bodily injury.