Intune
Member
The Weather Channel just reported a confetti storm on the horizon!
Malls debate how to protect shoppers from violence
- Thread starter NotPbFree
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gyp_c2
Member
uhhhh...
...they could close them down and turn them into Tacticool Indoor Practice Ranges...or, leave them open and let them stay Tacticool Indoor Practice Ranges...kinda' like a giant shoot-house...
...they could close them down and turn them into Tacticool Indoor Practice Ranges...or, leave them open and let them stay Tacticool Indoor Practice Ranges...kinda' like a giant shoot-house...
coylh
Member
There are a couple things that would be productive:
1. Criminals like this choose a location because they believe they will be successful. He went to the mall because he believed that he would be able to kill a large number of people. So, one way of decreasing these events is to build a track record of defeating his strategy, and publicize it widely. In other words, this is not random violence. The mall is an easy target, and criminals accurately predict they will be successful there. Until we offer counter evidence, this belief will persist.
2. The media should voluntarily decide not to commemorate the criminal. I found this criminal's name and picture in 7 seconds by searching the Internet. His suicide note states clearly that he knew he would become famous.
To summarize, our society makes crimes like this very attractive to psychopaths.
1. Criminals like this choose a location because they believe they will be successful. He went to the mall because he believed that he would be able to kill a large number of people. So, one way of decreasing these events is to build a track record of defeating his strategy, and publicize it widely. In other words, this is not random violence. The mall is an easy target, and criminals accurately predict they will be successful there. Until we offer counter evidence, this belief will persist.
2. The media should voluntarily decide not to commemorate the criminal. I found this criminal's name and picture in 7 seconds by searching the Internet. His suicide note states clearly that he knew he would become famous.
To summarize, our society makes crimes like this very attractive to psychopaths.
Ragnar Danneskjold
Member
A mall converted into a shoothouse would be AWESOME.
Was listening to talk radio on the way to work yesterday morning. Neal Boortz said basically-If a mall posts signs forbidding concealed carry & something like this happens to a Concealed Carry Permit holder that left their weapon in their car because of said sign. The mall should be liable for their injuries or death. If the mall is going to take away an individuals ability to defend themself then the mall should carry the burden of that persons safety.
Troutman
member
Haven’t read all the threads.
But what will happen (guessing), if these mall shootings continue.
Will be like what they did to the schools, courthouses, federal buildings. Detectors….It can be done. If they can do it at airports, as well as the above, depends on those questions (problems) which have to be worked out.
But what will happen (guessing), if these mall shootings continue.
Will be like what they did to the schools, courthouses, federal buildings. Detectors….It can be done. If they can do it at airports, as well as the above, depends on those questions (problems) which have to be worked out.
It would be very expensive and some Americans would object, but a lot would not. The chances of implementing it in a way that was not outrageously expensive and intrusive is slim. Think about your average mall. There are always dozens, if not hundreds of entrances. Are you going to put a metal detector on all of them? Or just channel everyone though one or two entrances? The malls would take a major hit, maybe a fatal one.
ZeSpectre
Member
Okay, reality check. Metal detectors are a feel good measure. First there are ways around them and second anyone starting a spree is going to take the detector gate guards first.
The only way metal detectors are going to work is if you build 'em into "mantrap" type entrances and I can just see the results of that.
The only way metal detectors are going to work is if you build 'em into "mantrap" type entrances and I can just see the results of that.
fearless leader
Member
You Get What You Pay For
Quote: Translation: The CERTAINTY of being murdered by a crazed gunman is preferable to the POSSIBILITY of being wounded by the person who stops him.
Can anyone explain why the same "logic" doesn't apply to having armed police on the scene?
I"ll try:
Most mall security are not very well trained, or paid. The concept of security doesn't rate high on the corporate level, because security does not "produce" anything, nor do they make any money for the corporation, and are largely in place for insurance reasons.
Security is looked at by corporations as a necessary annoyance, an expense that yields no dividends. They only become important when a crisis occurs. For this reason, they only allocate a minimal portion of their budget to security needs. This funnels down to the security contractors. They bid on these contracts and to keep their price in an acceptable limit, they hire personnel to meet minimum standards and receive only specialized training particular to where they will be posted, not much more. The average is told if something happens and your not sure what to do, contact your supervisor.
Most security officers I know are not "into" guns, know very little about them, and must only be able to score 70% of 48 shots at about 7 feet to 25 yards. They don't know which bullets penetrate and are likely to over penetrate or riccochet, defensive tactics, first responder, etc.
Armed security in my state are not trained in these areas in general. They are trained to draw, fire, and conditions with which they may do so. They are usally not trained in weapon retention, failure drills, cover and contact, and things normally learned by law enforcement, because it would cost too much.
While not the Security Officer's fault, they just do not receive the level of training necessary for these instances. Extra training is usually done at their OWN expense, and when you are barely making ends meet at say...$6 or $7 per hour, you can't afford much extra curricular activity.
A policeman receives much more training on how NOT to use their weapon, but their brain, and have other means available to them at the expense of the taxpayers. They learn how to engage multiple threats, break tunnel vision after shooting, use of cover and concealment, tactics for confronting an armed advisary, retention, what to do in the aftermath.
My best guess, in the event I would be in something like this, would be to get low, and try to conceal myself or get behind something solid. If I pull my gun before I really know what's going on, wannabe heros might fire on me.
If they make my mall a "Gun Free Zone" they won't see me in there anymore.
Quote: Translation: The CERTAINTY of being murdered by a crazed gunman is preferable to the POSSIBILITY of being wounded by the person who stops him.
Can anyone explain why the same "logic" doesn't apply to having armed police on the scene?
I"ll try:
Most mall security are not very well trained, or paid. The concept of security doesn't rate high on the corporate level, because security does not "produce" anything, nor do they make any money for the corporation, and are largely in place for insurance reasons.
Security is looked at by corporations as a necessary annoyance, an expense that yields no dividends. They only become important when a crisis occurs. For this reason, they only allocate a minimal portion of their budget to security needs. This funnels down to the security contractors. They bid on these contracts and to keep their price in an acceptable limit, they hire personnel to meet minimum standards and receive only specialized training particular to where they will be posted, not much more. The average is told if something happens and your not sure what to do, contact your supervisor.
Most security officers I know are not "into" guns, know very little about them, and must only be able to score 70% of 48 shots at about 7 feet to 25 yards. They don't know which bullets penetrate and are likely to over penetrate or riccochet, defensive tactics, first responder, etc.
Armed security in my state are not trained in these areas in general. They are trained to draw, fire, and conditions with which they may do so. They are usally not trained in weapon retention, failure drills, cover and contact, and things normally learned by law enforcement, because it would cost too much.
While not the Security Officer's fault, they just do not receive the level of training necessary for these instances. Extra training is usually done at their OWN expense, and when you are barely making ends meet at say...$6 or $7 per hour, you can't afford much extra curricular activity.
A policeman receives much more training on how NOT to use their weapon, but their brain, and have other means available to them at the expense of the taxpayers. They learn how to engage multiple threats, break tunnel vision after shooting, use of cover and concealment, tactics for confronting an armed advisary, retention, what to do in the aftermath.
My best guess, in the event I would be in something like this, would be to get low, and try to conceal myself or get behind something solid. If I pull my gun before I really know what's going on, wannabe heros might fire on me.
If they make my mall a "Gun Free Zone" they won't see me in there anymore.
Close all the malls, stop all large gatherings of people that attract these shooters. Require all shopping to be done online. 
There, I've solved the problem of mall shootings, PM me for the address to send the consulting fee.
Jeff
There, I've solved the problem of mall shootings, PM me for the address to send the consulting fee. Jeff
fearless leader
Member
Quote: Imagine how it feels to work in a mall for a company that also restricts the right to carry.
I work for a company that says I can't have weapons or ammo on the job unless they issue them.
To my left, about 12 feet away, is my automobile. It contains:
1 Glock 20 w/ 4 mags
1 J-frame
1 Mossberg 590
1 Colt Python
1 Glock 23 w/ 3 mags
1 Beretta M-9 w/ 3 mags
1 Remington 700 Precision Rifle w/ 50 rounds
and that's all I can remember.
Oh yeah, a Dan Wesson D-14 w/ 2 speed loaders and a bag of extras.
I think it was either Thomas Jefferson or Ben Franklin that said, "A little rebellion is a good thing."
As long as I can't be jailed for carrying, they can put those "NO Weapons" signs and rules some place warm, tight, and very uncomfortable orfice.
I work for a company that says I can't have weapons or ammo on the job unless they issue them.
To my left, about 12 feet away, is my automobile. It contains:
1 Glock 20 w/ 4 mags
1 J-frame
1 Mossberg 590
1 Colt Python
1 Glock 23 w/ 3 mags
1 Beretta M-9 w/ 3 mags
1 Remington 700 Precision Rifle w/ 50 rounds
and that's all I can remember.
Oh yeah, a Dan Wesson D-14 w/ 2 speed loaders and a bag of extras.
I think it was either Thomas Jefferson or Ben Franklin that said, "A little rebellion is a good thing."
As long as I can't be jailed for carrying, they can put those "NO Weapons" signs and rules some place warm, tight, and very uncomfortable orfice.
Troutman
member
<<Think about your average mall. There are always dozens, if not hundreds of entrances.>>
I was thinking more of those “hundreds of entrances” more like….emergency exits. True.
An exit can be used as an entrance as well…I will leave it at that.
They would cause a problem…. The malls can not chain and lock them, like the schools use to do.
<<Or just channel everyone though one or two entrances?>>
Even if that was to happen. What about those, “hundreds of exits”… (Excuse me) entrances? You mentioned.
There are no easy answers for, “……how to protect shoppers from violence”….or even if there is one?
When you have violence [not only guns involved either], you’re going to have “some” causalities. That is, if that is ones objective…..causalities.
It’s hard to foresee this kind [mall one in question] of incident.
Unlike a terrorist…..targets to meet their objective….for political or social reasons. Going to be SOMEWHAT of a pattern.
Increase security “measures” to deter and [maybe] prevent it. Those measures….malls have to deal with it, even if they took down the 30-06 signs and every one was carrying. Not the [absolute] answer to it…..no more than….. More gun-control laws.
<<The malls would take a major hit, maybe a fatal one>>
That’s the thing. Their competing with on-line vendors. How can they”…. protect shoppers from violence”? Without [shoppers fears] violence happening? And compete. If I had the answer, I would not be sitting here, replying. Maybe those fears…will blow over?
Maybe having two rangers at each mall, would make them (shoppers) feel better (in their minds), anyway? They have/had two rangers at Grand Central Station…..At one time.
<< Close all the malls, stop all large gatherings of people that attract these shooters. Require all shopping to be done online.>>
Yea. Easier said…then done. The on-line vendors would love that.
People, today have to realize, not only that the world has changed. America has to. This is not the late 60’s, 70’, or 80’s, we’re living in anymore. One has to be aware, prepared and act, to take care of “themselves” [training, not only with a gun either] in today’s’ world.
I was thinking more of those “hundreds of entrances” more like….emergency exits. True.
An exit can be used as an entrance as well…I will leave it at that.
They would cause a problem…. The malls can not chain and lock them, like the schools use to do.
<<Or just channel everyone though one or two entrances?>>
Even if that was to happen. What about those, “hundreds of exits”… (Excuse me) entrances? You mentioned.
There are no easy answers for, “……how to protect shoppers from violence”….or even if there is one?
When you have violence [not only guns involved either], you’re going to have “some” causalities. That is, if that is ones objective…..causalities.
It’s hard to foresee this kind [mall one in question] of incident.
Unlike a terrorist…..targets to meet their objective….for political or social reasons. Going to be SOMEWHAT of a pattern.
Increase security “measures” to deter and [maybe] prevent it. Those measures….malls have to deal with it, even if they took down the 30-06 signs and every one was carrying. Not the [absolute] answer to it…..no more than….. More gun-control laws.
<<The malls would take a major hit, maybe a fatal one>>
That’s the thing. Their competing with on-line vendors. How can they”…. protect shoppers from violence”? Without [shoppers fears] violence happening? And compete. If I had the answer, I would not be sitting here, replying. Maybe those fears…will blow over?
Maybe having two rangers at each mall, would make them (shoppers) feel better (in their minds), anyway? They have/had two rangers at Grand Central Station…..At one time.
<< Close all the malls, stop all large gatherings of people that attract these shooters. Require all shopping to be done online.>>
Yea. Easier said…then done. The on-line vendors would love that.
People, today have to realize, not only that the world has changed. America has to. This is not the late 60’s, 70’, or 80’s, we’re living in anymore. One has to be aware, prepared and act, to take care of “themselves” [training, not only with a gun either] in today’s’ world.
luzyfuerza
Member
I worked in Turkey for a few months in an earlier life. All the malls in Istanbul had metal detectors. For the first few days following a terrorist incident, the security guards would frisk people who made the things go off. After a week, though, things drifted back to normal; just about everybody walking through "beeped", and security "guards" wouldn't even bother to look up from their paperbacks.
bogie
Member
Hoss, I'm scared to ask... Just how many hands do you have?
It's just going to take ONE person who was in that mall, who had a CCW, who left it in the car, to sue the bejeezus out of them for psych trauma... And for that to get publicized. And expensive.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
It seems that too many people on both sides of the issue are still assuming that security is the responsibility of someone else...someone who is in charge or in a position of authority...whether real or imagined.
Your safety is your responsibility.
Troutman
member
<<Your safety is your responsibility.>>
True. But your always going to have those, who will say; (something like) I’m paying tax dollars to have some local, state or federal agency to protect me.
Let’s face it…the agencies, are not the Pied Piper of Hamelin. Their not going to toot their horn every time and everything is nice, nice. They can only do so much. This DOES NOT mean, these agencies should dismember and become circus clowns.
Look! The president of the U.S. [Bush] said; (quoting not exactly)…..citizens should take an active part to protect [help] America, as well as themselves. To make communities safer [crime, disasters], better prepared. Whether one likes the man or not……makes sense.
America did not win WW II, with just G.I.s’. “Rosie… the riveter”, helped out as well. Man had to do the dirty work.
I was talking to a professor from NYU. His specialty was with incidents [of a different kind] on how their handled. He wrote an article on it.
He took a poll, on post-Katrina. It was a little bit over 1,000 people. Out of those thousand….over 50%, WERE NOT, any more….”prepared”, than they were, before Katrina. If you’re going to go by the above poll, numbers. can’t see how these people can/could handle a spontaneous incident, or for that matter, a natural incident…..disaster. Which a natural disaster, you have some kind of forewarning to prepare for it. Prepare….meaning…..save ones’ life.
True. But your always going to have those, who will say; (something like) I’m paying tax dollars to have some local, state or federal agency to protect me.
Let’s face it…the agencies, are not the Pied Piper of Hamelin. Their not going to toot their horn every time and everything is nice, nice. They can only do so much. This DOES NOT mean, these agencies should dismember and become circus clowns.
Look! The president of the U.S. [Bush] said; (quoting not exactly)…..citizens should take an active part to protect [help] America, as well as themselves. To make communities safer [crime, disasters], better prepared. Whether one likes the man or not……makes sense.
America did not win WW II, with just G.I.s’. “Rosie… the riveter”, helped out as well. Man had to do the dirty work.
I was talking to a professor from NYU. His specialty was with incidents [of a different kind] on how their handled. He wrote an article on it.
He took a poll, on post-Katrina. It was a little bit over 1,000 people. Out of those thousand….over 50%, WERE NOT, any more….”prepared”, than they were, before Katrina. If you’re going to go by the above poll, numbers. can’t see how these people can/could handle a spontaneous incident, or for that matter, a natural incident…..disaster. Which a natural disaster, you have some kind of forewarning to prepare for it. Prepare….meaning…..save ones’ life.
Black Adder LXX
Member
I think metal detectors are a great idea. We could also take off our shoes in case there's explosives in them and not have liquids with us. The TSA could supervise it since they're so on the ball. And we could also dig moats around all the malls and stock them with hungry crocodiles. At each draw bridge there could be a series of security check points with bomb sniffing dogs...
Shopping malls in the USA employ private security staff to reduce the OWNERS’ liability and exposure to financial loss…PERIOD. Intervention in life and death criminal events is only vaguely part of the job description (and only by voluntary exception…when there is no other choice).
Their day-to-day duties are primarily to implement their corporate management’s Risk Management / Loss Mitigation policies. Believe it or not, their single most important function is fire protection systems monitoring with a commensurate reduction in already extremely high insurance premiums. The insurance companies require 24-hour Security Staff. The bottom line is the $ Bottom Line $.
Security duties include: identifying & correcting OSHA hazards; employee/customer accident prevention (tripping hazards, slips & falls, etc.); parking & traffic control; oversight of physical security locks and doors; FIRE prevention (including monitoring of sprinkler systems and risers); emergency evacuation of the property; defusing tenant/customer disputes; enforcing & reporting Tenant Lease Violations; resolving Lost & Found issues; providing directions & information to customers; serving as proxy management representatives outside 8-5 business hours; acting as corporate interface with local emergency services (Police, Fire, and EMS); coordinating a multitude of public events, displays, and marketing schemes on the mall property; supervising contract maintenance crews at all hours; escorting various local government inspectors (Fire Marshall, Health Inspectors, OSHA, etc.); locating lost children or other parties; monitoring security cameras; providing an effective radio communications network across their property; enforcing rules concerning presence of customer pets or service animals; providing sensing on a wide variety of minute-to-minute informational requirements for Managers, Marketing Directors, and Maintenance Staff; handling disabled vehicles or persons locked out of their cars; filing private property vehicle theft or accident reports; providing visual deterrence against crime; provide guidance to tenants in their filing of arrest warrants for shoplifters; occasionally pursue or detain perpetrators of misdemeanor or non-violent felony theft or larceny (shoplifters, dishonest employees, & burglars); break up fights; deal with belligerent drunks; confront delusional crazies; respond to: fires, births, medical emergencies, animal/child abuse calls, aircraft crashes on the property, ceiling/roof collapses, wind/storm/flood/freeze damage, dumpster fires, monitor and deter gang-bangers; monitor and deter shoplifting gangs; control access to the property, tenants, and patrons by the news media; jockey for Overtime/Holiday Pay; trolling for relationships in an environment which is overwhelmingly populated with young and attractive women (both employees and shoppers); enduring an inordinate amount of verbal abuse from idiots who would never use those words against a police officer (for fear of arrest) or a total stranger (for fear of a butt whipping); and properly calling the POLICE when something serious happens.
Security officers report any situation that is not conducive to the free and uninterrupted flow money via retail commerce. They act as the management’s eyes and ears for these situations and provide the ability and judgment to call for emergency assistance from local authorities or specialized service providers.
Daily, between 20,000 and 100,000 people flow through a typical super-regional shopping mall. They are small towns and the security staff deals with everything that can happen as these numbers of folks interact, work, eat, and shop.
No where in their job description does it say that a private security officer takes 50 yard head shots against armed, violent, and moving targets (who happen to be executing customers).
Providing an armed response to intervene against psychopaths or violent felons is not part of the mandate. Mall Security officers are not duty-bound by oath of office to inject themselves into life threatening situations for $9-$13 per hour. It’s a 40-hour a week job, not the USMC or a police department.
Although there are some malls which employ armed security, the vast majority (owned in chain-like blocs by property management or investment consortiums) choose to employ un-armed, but uniformed security officers in order to provide a high-profile presence (visible to the public). Whether employing in-house security or sub-contracted security company details, Management’s thought process is to provide an overtly visible “presence” which reassures patrons, tenants, and investors. They do not advertise the fact that this presence usually possesses no more law enforcement authority than the Citizens’ Arrest Powers that you or I may exercise. State laws vary widely, but generally do not provide Police powers to Security Officers. The security staff patrolling most malls are normally fairly earnest & dedicated (most people take pride in doing their work well), but are actually just part of a nation-wide Potemkin Village presentation by mall owners. They want you to see some semi-police looking staff (uniforms, duty-rigs, radios, cuffs, and maybe batons or OC spray) and assume that your wives and daughters are well secured.
Not so, but also not the fault of the Security Officers. They are limited by their employers as to capability, training, and (most importantly) coverage. Owners retain a security staff because they must. Security generates no revenue, but protects the mall from financial loss (to a degree)…kind of like a life jacket in a boat. The law firms and insurers retained by corporate headquarters throw up at the idea of fielding an armed quasi-police force. The training, certification, and liability limits are astronomical. At worst, they prefer to hire bonded armed security firms on a limited basis. Honestly, most LEOs are not truly proficiently trained in employing firearms and they have access to budgets and training resources which far exceed those of a security staff. The primary actions which most security officers are expected to take in a deadly force situation is 1) self-preservation 2) observe & report (suspect description, license plate, etc.) and 3) herd the cats (oops…customers) out of harms way if possible. Nothing more. For this they rate job success. If they were to kill anyone (deliberately or accidentally), they will most likely find themselves terminated and involved in a multi-party civil lawsuit where they and the mall are co-defendants, but the mall lawyers aren’t directly defending them…just the mall’s interests.
Security personnel often fall into one of the following BROAD categories (and, like every circumstance in life, there are exceptions):
1. Young men (less often women) who are working their way through college or are preparing for a police career. This often includes some very sharp recently separated military veterans.
2. Middle-aged career workers between jobs who desperately need the medical benefits for their families.
3. Former LEOs, Corrections Officers, etc. - Folks who elected voluntarily or involuntarily not to make full-time certified law enforcement a career.
4. Retirees – augmenting a retirement income and who need the medical benefits
5. Career Security Personnel – usually become the moderately well paid supervisors, chiefs, directors, or heads of security departments. At the top of the corporation ladder, the money is good and a security manager will have a resume good for promotions or change of employer.
6. Police Wannabes, Bullies, and Head Cases…there are always one or two. Mall Ninja or Cretin in all his glory…they do exist. They’ve usually failed the application process for a police academy at some point. These folks are actually a minority and are tolerated about as well in Security as at any other place of employment…not for very long.
7. Current LEOs – it’s a second job with reliable hours, easy indoor work conditions, and beats helping bar bouncers. Very little life and death drama actually takes place at most malls.
A typical large shopping center runs a security staff of 3-7 officers (depending upon peak business hours) for a property that may include hundreds of stores, cavernous wings and halls, and 10-30 acres of parking lot. 1-3 of those officers are always outside (in patrol vehicles) and may be unable to quickly travel to the scene of a crisis. 1-2 of the officers are already busy handling some issue or call at any given time. When the radio blares that “someone is shooting!” the only response may be a security officer who is ¼ mile away, on foot, armed with a baton. Nuts and criminals don’t normally commit their deeds in the visible presence of deterrence. What do you think you would you do in his shoes? More importantly, what can he or she actually do? Not much…except observe and report.
The CURRENT best way for malls to secure their environs is by employing varying levels of Certified Police presence. Actually, many malls already do this. Once again, the deciding factor is money (payroll). A mall can employ 2-3 full time security staff for the price of employing one off-duty police officer. Management’s point of view is that 3 uniformed security officers are much more visible than 1 police officer. Additionally, the police officer is hired to effectively work an additional police patrol shift (outside his normal PD duties). He handles Police matters. He doesn’t do windows (or a lot of those other very important tasks that the security officer undertakes for his employer).
Payroll and benefits being one of the major costs of any business, Mall Security is allocated a small and set percentage of the annual budget for a center. The Mall Security Director or Chief manages his payroll budget (just like any supervisor) and allocates payroll for police augmentation only where he or she can afford to (weekends, Sale Days, holiday shopping season, etc.). If affordable, an extra 1-2 cops can augment the security staff and patrol your local mall as part of an off-duty beat. However, when Bad things happen, that police officer may still be ¼ mile away…
Malls that employ this procedure typically save their payroll for the Thanksgiving thru New Years shopping season, when they may flood the mall with a thick blue line. Malls using this method are actually pretty safe during these shopping days, because having 10-15 additional police officers (plus augmented security staffing) just looking for miscreants and weirdoes (in the crowd or parking lot) is usually pretty effective. They are looking to bump up their arrest records, get to enjoy the kind of immediate backup they normally only get when shots are fired, enjoy generally pleasant and well-paid work, and it’s considered a choice gig. You tend to get a lot of senior and experienced police supervisors and patrol officers who reserve these jobs months in advance and do it year after year…trained staff with full police powers.
The BEST way to provide the level of security which most Americans think (incorrectly) that they already have and are entitled to…is the Israeli model: Controlled security checkpoints at entrances (with searches of persons and belongings) backed up by well trained and armed security teams and police. This must be furthered by armed police patrolling the grounds and interior. Add in complete coverage by surveillance video cameras and profiling training for all personnel.
This is a frightfully expensive proposition and one which retailers and governments will never entertain until something really, really bad happens. The retail world figures that 5, 7, or 20 dead (the result of a once in a blue moon loony) is not “really, really bad”. Their actuaries, accountants, insurers, and lawyers tell them this is so. It’s the occasional (but rare) cost of doing business amortized over the 30-50 year life span of the money engines which are the malls.
The ONLY way to guarantee your personal security at a mall (within the limits of luck and fate) is to provide for it yourself.
----------------------
P.S. – Before anyone asks…
Once upon a time I worked in Mall Management for a large center…
Once upon a time we had a similar shooting…
I learned:
1. 200-GRN LRN .38 Special is a lot more lethal than most here could imagine…
2. First Reports are Always B*&%#$*T…we thought we had upwards of twenty people wounded or killed and multiple shooters at multiple locations (gang fight?). Most turned out to be overweight women sprinting like gazelles for the first time in 20 years…heart attacks.
3. A person on a killing spree will part a crowd like Moses parting the Red Sea. Especially if the situation involves a psychotic…he’ll be the only one who appears calm.
4. Crowds fleeing gunfire sprint exactly like antelope breaking from the charge of a lion pride. Watch Animal Planet or Discovery Channel…
5. No police present at the moment of shooting…got there in about 3 minutes though…still too late for the victims.
6. A distraught CCW holder dressed in casual business attire looks just like a psychotic mass killer…especially when he jumps bug-eyed through an office doorway waving a bead blasted SS finish S&W 9mm while shouting “MY WIFE IS SOMEWHERE IN THE MALL!!!”. Yeah buddy, I believed you…and was wishing you’d just take it out on her and not everyone else (I immediately assumed a domestic vengeance attack and that he was the shooter). Before I could shoot HIM (CCW - Colt Government), a co-worker shouted right back at him that the PD would be there any second and he was liable to get shot running through the mall with a gun. Funny…my female co-worker immediately assumed he was there to rescue his spouse…I immediately assumed he was there to kill her.
7. Someone’s unarmed elderly grandfather stopped the shooter by walking right up to him, placing a hand on his gun arm, and calmly asking him to please not hurt anyone else. Some sort of human empathy clicked on in our psycho’s head (he was a clinically diagnosed schizophrenic with homicidal tendencies) and he calmly dropped his snub revolver and reloads into a trash can…lit a cigarette and walked off undisturbed. He was apprehended (unarmed) minutes later by the police. Grandpa rejoined his grandkids and vanished anonymously. The bravest man on planet earth that day...he never sought nor received credit.
8. Fractions of seconds seemed like several seconds; several seconds seemed like a minute.
9. Dozens of brave and dedicated Police, Firemen, and EMS personnel showed up within minutes…and so did a bunch of vipers masquerading as “Journalists”.
10. Everyone thinks that because they can honestly shoot pretty accurately at the range, that they’ll just duplicate the feat when confronted by death. It’s actually not very likely to turn out that way. The very first and biggest hurdle will be to confront your fight or flight reflexes. Not many folks are truly aggressive enough to fight through their biological hard wiring and proceed ALONE, with a handgun, into an unknown situation, against unknown odds, with no definite target or understanding of what the hell is actually happening (other than the known fact of lead being slung by someone you don’t know). Instead, they protect themselves, their loved ones, and nearby strangers by moving everyone quickly and directly away from the threat.
YMMV.
I Hate Malls.
Their day-to-day duties are primarily to implement their corporate management’s Risk Management / Loss Mitigation policies. Believe it or not, their single most important function is fire protection systems monitoring with a commensurate reduction in already extremely high insurance premiums. The insurance companies require 24-hour Security Staff. The bottom line is the $ Bottom Line $.
Security duties include: identifying & correcting OSHA hazards; employee/customer accident prevention (tripping hazards, slips & falls, etc.); parking & traffic control; oversight of physical security locks and doors; FIRE prevention (including monitoring of sprinkler systems and risers); emergency evacuation of the property; defusing tenant/customer disputes; enforcing & reporting Tenant Lease Violations; resolving Lost & Found issues; providing directions & information to customers; serving as proxy management representatives outside 8-5 business hours; acting as corporate interface with local emergency services (Police, Fire, and EMS); coordinating a multitude of public events, displays, and marketing schemes on the mall property; supervising contract maintenance crews at all hours; escorting various local government inspectors (Fire Marshall, Health Inspectors, OSHA, etc.); locating lost children or other parties; monitoring security cameras; providing an effective radio communications network across their property; enforcing rules concerning presence of customer pets or service animals; providing sensing on a wide variety of minute-to-minute informational requirements for Managers, Marketing Directors, and Maintenance Staff; handling disabled vehicles or persons locked out of their cars; filing private property vehicle theft or accident reports; providing visual deterrence against crime; provide guidance to tenants in their filing of arrest warrants for shoplifters; occasionally pursue or detain perpetrators of misdemeanor or non-violent felony theft or larceny (shoplifters, dishonest employees, & burglars); break up fights; deal with belligerent drunks; confront delusional crazies; respond to: fires, births, medical emergencies, animal/child abuse calls, aircraft crashes on the property, ceiling/roof collapses, wind/storm/flood/freeze damage, dumpster fires, monitor and deter gang-bangers; monitor and deter shoplifting gangs; control access to the property, tenants, and patrons by the news media; jockey for Overtime/Holiday Pay; trolling for relationships in an environment which is overwhelmingly populated with young and attractive women (both employees and shoppers); enduring an inordinate amount of verbal abuse from idiots who would never use those words against a police officer (for fear of arrest) or a total stranger (for fear of a butt whipping); and properly calling the POLICE when something serious happens.
Security officers report any situation that is not conducive to the free and uninterrupted flow money via retail commerce. They act as the management’s eyes and ears for these situations and provide the ability and judgment to call for emergency assistance from local authorities or specialized service providers.
Daily, between 20,000 and 100,000 people flow through a typical super-regional shopping mall. They are small towns and the security staff deals with everything that can happen as these numbers of folks interact, work, eat, and shop.
No where in their job description does it say that a private security officer takes 50 yard head shots against armed, violent, and moving targets (who happen to be executing customers).
Providing an armed response to intervene against psychopaths or violent felons is not part of the mandate. Mall Security officers are not duty-bound by oath of office to inject themselves into life threatening situations for $9-$13 per hour. It’s a 40-hour a week job, not the USMC or a police department.
Although there are some malls which employ armed security, the vast majority (owned in chain-like blocs by property management or investment consortiums) choose to employ un-armed, but uniformed security officers in order to provide a high-profile presence (visible to the public). Whether employing in-house security or sub-contracted security company details, Management’s thought process is to provide an overtly visible “presence” which reassures patrons, tenants, and investors. They do not advertise the fact that this presence usually possesses no more law enforcement authority than the Citizens’ Arrest Powers that you or I may exercise. State laws vary widely, but generally do not provide Police powers to Security Officers. The security staff patrolling most malls are normally fairly earnest & dedicated (most people take pride in doing their work well), but are actually just part of a nation-wide Potemkin Village presentation by mall owners. They want you to see some semi-police looking staff (uniforms, duty-rigs, radios, cuffs, and maybe batons or OC spray) and assume that your wives and daughters are well secured.
Not so, but also not the fault of the Security Officers. They are limited by their employers as to capability, training, and (most importantly) coverage. Owners retain a security staff because they must. Security generates no revenue, but protects the mall from financial loss (to a degree)…kind of like a life jacket in a boat. The law firms and insurers retained by corporate headquarters throw up at the idea of fielding an armed quasi-police force. The training, certification, and liability limits are astronomical. At worst, they prefer to hire bonded armed security firms on a limited basis. Honestly, most LEOs are not truly proficiently trained in employing firearms and they have access to budgets and training resources which far exceed those of a security staff. The primary actions which most security officers are expected to take in a deadly force situation is 1) self-preservation 2) observe & report (suspect description, license plate, etc.) and 3) herd the cats (oops…customers) out of harms way if possible. Nothing more. For this they rate job success. If they were to kill anyone (deliberately or accidentally), they will most likely find themselves terminated and involved in a multi-party civil lawsuit where they and the mall are co-defendants, but the mall lawyers aren’t directly defending them…just the mall’s interests.
Security personnel often fall into one of the following BROAD categories (and, like every circumstance in life, there are exceptions):
1. Young men (less often women) who are working their way through college or are preparing for a police career. This often includes some very sharp recently separated military veterans.
2. Middle-aged career workers between jobs who desperately need the medical benefits for their families.
3. Former LEOs, Corrections Officers, etc. - Folks who elected voluntarily or involuntarily not to make full-time certified law enforcement a career.
4. Retirees – augmenting a retirement income and who need the medical benefits
5. Career Security Personnel – usually become the moderately well paid supervisors, chiefs, directors, or heads of security departments. At the top of the corporation ladder, the money is good and a security manager will have a resume good for promotions or change of employer.
6. Police Wannabes, Bullies, and Head Cases…there are always one or two. Mall Ninja or Cretin in all his glory…they do exist. They’ve usually failed the application process for a police academy at some point. These folks are actually a minority and are tolerated about as well in Security as at any other place of employment…not for very long.
7. Current LEOs – it’s a second job with reliable hours, easy indoor work conditions, and beats helping bar bouncers. Very little life and death drama actually takes place at most malls.
A typical large shopping center runs a security staff of 3-7 officers (depending upon peak business hours) for a property that may include hundreds of stores, cavernous wings and halls, and 10-30 acres of parking lot. 1-3 of those officers are always outside (in patrol vehicles) and may be unable to quickly travel to the scene of a crisis. 1-2 of the officers are already busy handling some issue or call at any given time. When the radio blares that “someone is shooting!” the only response may be a security officer who is ¼ mile away, on foot, armed with a baton. Nuts and criminals don’t normally commit their deeds in the visible presence of deterrence. What do you think you would you do in his shoes? More importantly, what can he or she actually do? Not much…except observe and report.
The CURRENT best way for malls to secure their environs is by employing varying levels of Certified Police presence. Actually, many malls already do this. Once again, the deciding factor is money (payroll). A mall can employ 2-3 full time security staff for the price of employing one off-duty police officer. Management’s point of view is that 3 uniformed security officers are much more visible than 1 police officer. Additionally, the police officer is hired to effectively work an additional police patrol shift (outside his normal PD duties). He handles Police matters. He doesn’t do windows (or a lot of those other very important tasks that the security officer undertakes for his employer).
Payroll and benefits being one of the major costs of any business, Mall Security is allocated a small and set percentage of the annual budget for a center. The Mall Security Director or Chief manages his payroll budget (just like any supervisor) and allocates payroll for police augmentation only where he or she can afford to (weekends, Sale Days, holiday shopping season, etc.). If affordable, an extra 1-2 cops can augment the security staff and patrol your local mall as part of an off-duty beat. However, when Bad things happen, that police officer may still be ¼ mile away…
Malls that employ this procedure typically save their payroll for the Thanksgiving thru New Years shopping season, when they may flood the mall with a thick blue line. Malls using this method are actually pretty safe during these shopping days, because having 10-15 additional police officers (plus augmented security staffing) just looking for miscreants and weirdoes (in the crowd or parking lot) is usually pretty effective. They are looking to bump up their arrest records, get to enjoy the kind of immediate backup they normally only get when shots are fired, enjoy generally pleasant and well-paid work, and it’s considered a choice gig. You tend to get a lot of senior and experienced police supervisors and patrol officers who reserve these jobs months in advance and do it year after year…trained staff with full police powers.
The BEST way to provide the level of security which most Americans think (incorrectly) that they already have and are entitled to…is the Israeli model: Controlled security checkpoints at entrances (with searches of persons and belongings) backed up by well trained and armed security teams and police. This must be furthered by armed police patrolling the grounds and interior. Add in complete coverage by surveillance video cameras and profiling training for all personnel.
This is a frightfully expensive proposition and one which retailers and governments will never entertain until something really, really bad happens. The retail world figures that 5, 7, or 20 dead (the result of a once in a blue moon loony) is not “really, really bad”. Their actuaries, accountants, insurers, and lawyers tell them this is so. It’s the occasional (but rare) cost of doing business amortized over the 30-50 year life span of the money engines which are the malls.
The ONLY way to guarantee your personal security at a mall (within the limits of luck and fate) is to provide for it yourself.
----------------------
P.S. – Before anyone asks…
Once upon a time I worked in Mall Management for a large center…
Once upon a time we had a similar shooting…
I learned:
1. 200-GRN LRN .38 Special is a lot more lethal than most here could imagine…
2. First Reports are Always B*&%#$*T…we thought we had upwards of twenty people wounded or killed and multiple shooters at multiple locations (gang fight?). Most turned out to be overweight women sprinting like gazelles for the first time in 20 years…heart attacks.
3. A person on a killing spree will part a crowd like Moses parting the Red Sea. Especially if the situation involves a psychotic…he’ll be the only one who appears calm.
4. Crowds fleeing gunfire sprint exactly like antelope breaking from the charge of a lion pride. Watch Animal Planet or Discovery Channel…
5. No police present at the moment of shooting…got there in about 3 minutes though…still too late for the victims.
6. A distraught CCW holder dressed in casual business attire looks just like a psychotic mass killer…especially when he jumps bug-eyed through an office doorway waving a bead blasted SS finish S&W 9mm while shouting “MY WIFE IS SOMEWHERE IN THE MALL!!!”. Yeah buddy, I believed you…and was wishing you’d just take it out on her and not everyone else (I immediately assumed a domestic vengeance attack and that he was the shooter). Before I could shoot HIM (CCW - Colt Government), a co-worker shouted right back at him that the PD would be there any second and he was liable to get shot running through the mall with a gun. Funny…my female co-worker immediately assumed he was there to rescue his spouse…I immediately assumed he was there to kill her.
7. Someone’s unarmed elderly grandfather stopped the shooter by walking right up to him, placing a hand on his gun arm, and calmly asking him to please not hurt anyone else. Some sort of human empathy clicked on in our psycho’s head (he was a clinically diagnosed schizophrenic with homicidal tendencies) and he calmly dropped his snub revolver and reloads into a trash can…lit a cigarette and walked off undisturbed. He was apprehended (unarmed) minutes later by the police. Grandpa rejoined his grandkids and vanished anonymously. The bravest man on planet earth that day...he never sought nor received credit.
8. Fractions of seconds seemed like several seconds; several seconds seemed like a minute.
9. Dozens of brave and dedicated Police, Firemen, and EMS personnel showed up within minutes…and so did a bunch of vipers masquerading as “Journalists”.
10. Everyone thinks that because they can honestly shoot pretty accurately at the range, that they’ll just duplicate the feat when confronted by death. It’s actually not very likely to turn out that way. The very first and biggest hurdle will be to confront your fight or flight reflexes. Not many folks are truly aggressive enough to fight through their biological hard wiring and proceed ALONE, with a handgun, into an unknown situation, against unknown odds, with no definite target or understanding of what the hell is actually happening (other than the known fact of lead being slung by someone you don’t know). Instead, they protect themselves, their loved ones, and nearby strangers by moving everyone quickly and directly away from the threat.
YMMV.
I Hate Malls.
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A "mall" is simply a shopping center with a big roof over it, and a calulated shooter has no better pickings or potential inside a "mall" than they have on any crowded street, shopping center, or any walk-in type business full of people.
The only issue here is legal liability for mall owners - on the practical there really is not any issue except whether to have metal detectors and "screening" going in - or not. And that is where all this is really going to end up.
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http://searchronpaul.com
http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
The only issue here is legal liability for mall owners - on the practical there really is not any issue except whether to have metal detectors and "screening" going in - or not. And that is where all this is really going to end up.
-------------------------------------
http://searchronpaul.com
http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
Zach S
Member
Not just a deterrant, but they also make the sheep feel safe, and makes whoever is picking up the tab feel better about themselves for taking a "pro-active approach" to safety.
We have unarmed security at work. Most dont know their way around. The one here tonight is close 60 years old and weighs about 300 lbs.
Autolycus
Member
At the mall I used to work at back in CHicago, Ford City Mall, they used off duty LEOs in addition to their own security. It still did not deter the gang violence or shootings that happened there.
In the end it seems that the government prefers us to be sheep and to accept the idea that the goverment will protect us. I long for the days when I am free to carry a firearm and am legally able to defend my life.
In the end it seems that the government prefers us to be sheep and to accept the idea that the goverment will protect us. I long for the days when I am free to carry a firearm and am legally able to defend my life.
40SW
Member
My thoughts and prayers go out to the victims and their loved ones, but no candlelight vigil has ever saved a life. Its seems to be a recurring pattern.
1. High profile shooting occurs.
2. Media misidentifies the type of firearms used and demonizes all firearms as "assault" weapons.
3. Knee jerk reaction from the sheeple.
4. Sheeple goes to the slaughter once again with no discussion of CCW provisions in malls, schools, etc.
Once again, NO CANDLE VIGIL has ever stopped a psychopath.
If they really care about common sense solutions, talk about REAL DETTERENTS that work.
1. High profile shooting occurs.
2. Media misidentifies the type of firearms used and demonizes all firearms as "assault" weapons.
3. Knee jerk reaction from the sheeple.
4. Sheeple goes to the slaughter once again with no discussion of CCW provisions in malls, schools, etc.
Once again, NO CANDLE VIGIL has ever stopped a psychopath.
If they really care about common sense solutions, talk about REAL DETTERENTS that work.
30 cal slob
Member
Chindo18Z said:
After an initial period of puzzled hesitation, which can last from 30 seconds to forever, yes, I'd agree with you.
Many people don't know how to react to gunshots. I don't know if your generalization really holds for everyone.
A few years ago, I was on Sixth Avenue in NYC grabbing dinner with my boss. Very crowded, with post-rush-hour throngs making their way to wherever. Suddenly a few shots rang out. It took me something like 3-5 seconds to figure out that shots were fired and I THEN ducked into an alcove (and totally forgot about my boss). Everyone else? Just sitting there like deer in headlights. Strangely, curiosity got a hold of me and I walked TOWARD the perceived source of the gunfire and saw a man sprawled out on the sidewalk, with his brains leaking from his head.
(I later learned this was the Ukrainian jeweler who got whacked by the Russian mob).
Intune
Member
I don't know if anyone has posted this yet but a guy that lives there posted this info in another site. "Oh and for the record, Westroads pulled down the signs that prohibited concealed weapons before reopening this weekend leaving only screw holes behind."
Phil DeGraves
Member
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2006
- Messages
- 1,531
"Most security officers I know are not "into" guns, know very little about them, and must only be able to score 70% of 48 shots at about 7 feet to 25 yards. They don't know which bullets penetrate and are likely to over penetrate or riccochet..."
Sounds like most police officers.
"A policeman receives much more training on how NOT to use their weapon, but their brain, and have other means available to them at the expense of the taxpayers. They learn how to engage multiple threats, break tunnel vision after shooting, use of cover and concealment, tactics for confronting an armed advisary, retention, what to do in the aftermath."
That's a rather optimistic assessment of police training. Maybe some states and maybe some officers but the general run of th emill officer IS NOT going to get the training you mention, especially in firearms.
Sounds like most police officers.
"A policeman receives much more training on how NOT to use their weapon, but their brain, and have other means available to them at the expense of the taxpayers. They learn how to engage multiple threats, break tunnel vision after shooting, use of cover and concealment, tactics for confronting an armed advisary, retention, what to do in the aftermath."
That's a rather optimistic assessment of police training. Maybe some states and maybe some officers but the general run of th emill officer IS NOT going to get the training you mention, especially in firearms.
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