Head to Head: Practical Big Game Hunting Rifles
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Kachok
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LOL OMG beachball at 10 fps OWNS EVERYTHING LMAO. Yeah the 338-06 did good, the 35 Whelen beats it at 100 yards but the 338-06 wins at longer ranges.
Float Pilot
Member
Yes occasionally I hunt with one of my seven rifles in 6.5x55mm, as long as nothing big and brown is in the area, since it does not possess enough whammy for dangerous game. Unless you are very lucky or have a back-up shooter.
The TKO formula does have problems, as does obviously whatever program you discovered. It was designed around non-expanding or minimally expanding bullets on dangerous large game.
. Impact velocity at range comes into play. At muzzle velocity the Taylor formula still shows the 6.5x55 in the lead by a good margin over a 45 pistol. Although nailing a 200 pound deer (which would be a huge deer by Alaskan standards) at 10 feet with a 230 grain hardball would probably kill him pretty dead.
But at 100 yards the 45 pistol is only going 650-700 fps maybe (Taylor TKO of 8-10) while the 160 grain 6.5x55 is going at least 2,350 at 100 yards (TKO of 14)
By the way, I once fired 8 shots of 45 ACP Silvertip HPs into a wounded car struck moose's skull at a range of 6 inches in very rapid succession. None of them penetrated. However after loading some 158 grain metal piercing rounds into my back-up 2.5 inch model 19S&W 357 mag,,,, one clean shot penetrated the skull and put the poor moose out of it's misery.
So bullet construction is also super important.
And there are obvious faults with the Taylor formula when comparing apples to oranges. Since it was never made to take into account pistol rounds compared to rifle rounds.
Now would a Brenneke solid (not the hollow bowl junk made by US firms) 12 gauge slug at 10 feet have more whammy than a 338 Win Mag at 10 feet...??? Some guides and many Fish and Game outfits think so...
Thus slug-guns for protection while fishing or hiking and rifles for hunting.
While my 338 Win Mag hand-loads throw a 250 grain at 2,650 fps...(TKO of 31 at the muzzle) it is still going around 2,389 fps at 100 yards TKO of 28 and 2,144 fps at 200 yards (semi round nose bullet) with a TKO of 25.
Having chronographed shotgun slugs, I have always found the velocity claims by most manufactures to be rather optimistic. But if you believe Brenneke, their solid slug (608 caliber) would have a muzzle TKO in the mid 50s. And a paper Ft Pound reading of 2,460 ft pounds.
But at 100 yards, (if you could hit anything) it is only going around 900 fps. with a TKO of around 30 to 35 depending. And of course at 200 yards who knows where it will go..
There are faults with any formula since there are such a wide range of variables. Using an exterior ballistics calculator that claims a 45-70, known for killing Buffalo at extended ranges, is only good for lighter weight critters, does not exactly give you the scientific high ground.
Kachok
Member
The poblem with the TKO fomula is that it gives WAY too much emphasis on the diamiter of the projectile, as for the 6.5x55 vs the 45acp there is no comparison, the fact that the 12 guage slug had twice the TKO of the 338 win mag is absurd, even with hardend high penatration slugs it makes nowhere near the soft tissue damage that a 338 magnum does. I have seen ballistics gel tests with both and they are not even on the same playing feild. There are 100 other absurd comparisons I could site, TKO does not even really apply to body shots anyway it was created for headshots on large game and it does not even ring true for that. The only thing I see TKO actualy applying to is larger caliber rifle vs larger caliber rifle of similar speeds, cross comparisons with high speed rifles is just not remotly realistic. If anyone here thinks that a 44 mag is twice the power of a 270 win they are just plain stupid, and there is no nice way to say that.
BTW I did already explain the 45-70 issue if you read my post on it. A 405gr 45 cal solid is very capable of reaching the vitals of a bison even on a 400 yard shot, reaching the vitals and killing it are very different then a quick ethical kill. That said the 45-70 carries an 1100lbs OGW at 100 yards, that is a more common range the old heavyweight will be used. Point nullified
BTW I did already explain the 45-70 issue if you read my post on it. A 405gr 45 cal solid is very capable of reaching the vitals of a bison even on a 400 yard shot, reaching the vitals and killing it are very different then a quick ethical kill. That said the 45-70 carries an 1100lbs OGW at 100 yards, that is a more common range the old heavyweight will be used. Point nullified
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Kachok
Member
Take 2 mythical bullets one a 200gr 25cal, the other a 200gr 50 cal. Design them both to create maxamum damage through a 16" would canal in ballistic gel. Fire them at the same speed/energy, the results would be so simmilar you would not be able to tell the difference between them except for the larger entry hole, which means absolutly nothing to the damage on the vital organs. THAT is my problem with TKO because it says the larger entry hole makes twice the damage and that is just not true at all.
Now compare a 100gr 25 cal and 400gr .50 cal of the same kennetic energy and you are talking about a real difference there, not because of the larger frontal area, but because of the higher momentum of the heavier bullet, more momentum make for more efficient use of kenetic energy.
With hard cast bullets sure larger calibers make bigger holes, but I don't know about your state but every one I have ever lived in requires you to use expanding bullets for big game hunting, so TKO could not apply there either.
Now compare a 100gr 25 cal and 400gr .50 cal of the same kennetic energy and you are talking about a real difference there, not because of the larger frontal area, but because of the higher momentum of the heavier bullet, more momentum make for more efficient use of kenetic energy.
With hard cast bullets sure larger calibers make bigger holes, but I don't know about your state but every one I have ever lived in requires you to use expanding bullets for big game hunting, so TKO could not apply there either.
coug
Member
on a more serious note, I personaly prefer Acklys take on killing power. its simple speed kills. I like to push my hunting rounds as fast as I can. I choose a very suitable round for the game im after. and push it till I get pressure sighns then back off 1/2 a grain. and pick a bullet that will hold together. its Very easy to do this. you want the highest BC and SD you can get for that caliber. pick a round that will push it fast and learn to get good with it.. I prefer a 300wm to a .308 or a 30-06 no matter how you look at it it will push the same bullet faster. I would only use a 30 cal. for elk or bigger that's just what I like. for deer and antalope im going to shoot a .264 or a .257 as fast and flat as I can push it. that doesn't mean other things don't work fine. its just my way of thinking. my 11 year old daughter shoots deer with a .223 she has three one shot clean kills. one complete miss. that was my fault. if a guy don't have the money for all these great toys go with a good tweener like a 7mm08 or a 7mm rem mag. you can probably guess my choice. I like a tame round for paper and a mean one for hunting. in my warped opinion it is very clear how to selct a round for its purpose.
Kachok
Member
6.5-7mm makes the ideal combination of speed and mass for deer sized game, both did very well on my previous Head to Head. 7mm turned out to be the proctical min for elk sized game and .30cal to .338cal seemed to be ideal. I just wish someone made a high BC poly tip 250gr 35cal BT because I really do think it would have taken the whole contest. Not because it had a high TKO factor, but it threw heavy bullets very very well, with minimal powder burnt, and acceptable recoil/trajectory. I made a mythical 250gr bullet with an est .550 BC according to it's SD and twist, and it beat the 300 win mag for the top spot on the killing energy scale, it would be #1 if Nosler or Burger or Horandy took the old .35 seriously.
Float Pilot
Member
Hmmmmm.
Yes a 200 grain 25 caliber bullet would have great sectional density...It would penetrate like an arrow and probably have a very good B.C. Sorta like a lead arrow...
While a 200 grain 50 caliber would be a round ball. With a horrible BC and sectional density.
The only thing that I have taken any game with which would come close is a 54 caliber Plains rifle using a 225 grain pure lead round ball and 110 grains (eqv by volume) of Pyrodex. That load gave me 1,975 fps across the chronograph. (TKO 34)
30 years ago, during my black powder craze, I took more than a few arctic caribou and black bear with that rifle using round ball. From 25 to 125 yards the sound of the impact is quite impressive, as is the sudden demise of a well hit caribou. Just as thousands of deer were taken back east by smaller caliber round balls at lower velocities during the 150 years of the American muzzle-loading rifle era.
Now your 25 caliber lead arrow bullet launched at the same velocity, or lets say 30 caliber since I used a 54 caliber ball, We could launch a 220 or 230 grain bullet at 1975 fps from something like a 30-040 Krag or down-loaded 30-06 very easily. And you are right, the Taylor computer gizmo shows it at only a little more than half (TKO 19) the 54 caliber round ball muzzle TKO. At least at the muzzle. Of course at 100 yards the tables are turned since the round ball slows down very fast while the 230 grain 30 caliber will just keep on truckin.
Now at 20 yards would a caribou shot broadside drop dead faster from a 225 grain 54 caliber round ball or a 220 grain 30 caliber bullet , both at 1975 t0 2,000 fps ???
At 100, 150 and 200 yards we know the longer 30 caliber certainly has an advantage.
Oddly enough the regular foot pounds type of calculation makes a 160 grain 6.5mm bullet at 2,500 fps seem much more powerful than a 220 grain 30 caliber bullet at 2,000 fps. But the TKO values show otherwise...
As for 35 caliber bullets:
I agree that there are not enough choices with a good high BC. I have tried the 225 grain Nosler Accubonds (BC of .421) in my 350 Rem Mag, and in my 358 Norma Mag. They are a little too long for the 350 Rem Mag's neck.
The longer and heavier Nosler Partition bullets actually have a fairly high BC. Even the 225 brain partition has a BC of .430 due to its longer body. While the 250 grain partition has a BC of .446
I am currently using the Swift A-frame 280 grain bullets in both the Norma and the Rem Mag. While it only has a BC of .388 due to the blunt tip, but....no game critter within 300 yards will ever know the difference.
I am shooting them at 2,400 fps from my 8 pound Sourdough Rifle.
At 300 yards, which I consider the maximum ethical hunting distance for most rifles, the 280 grain slug is still going over 1,800 fps and still generates around 2,000 ft pounds of energy, which is the minimum I want for impact.
I sight it for around 230 yards and it is only 8-9 inches low at 300. While being within a hand width all the way out to 250.
Yes a 200 grain 25 caliber bullet would have great sectional density...It would penetrate like an arrow and probably have a very good B.C. Sorta like a lead arrow...
While a 200 grain 50 caliber would be a round ball. With a horrible BC and sectional density.
The only thing that I have taken any game with which would come close is a 54 caliber Plains rifle using a 225 grain pure lead round ball and 110 grains (eqv by volume) of Pyrodex. That load gave me 1,975 fps across the chronograph. (TKO 34)
30 years ago, during my black powder craze, I took more than a few arctic caribou and black bear with that rifle using round ball. From 25 to 125 yards the sound of the impact is quite impressive, as is the sudden demise of a well hit caribou. Just as thousands of deer were taken back east by smaller caliber round balls at lower velocities during the 150 years of the American muzzle-loading rifle era.
Now your 25 caliber lead arrow bullet launched at the same velocity, or lets say 30 caliber since I used a 54 caliber ball, We could launch a 220 or 230 grain bullet at 1975 fps from something like a 30-040 Krag or down-loaded 30-06 very easily. And you are right, the Taylor computer gizmo shows it at only a little more than half (TKO 19) the 54 caliber round ball muzzle TKO. At least at the muzzle. Of course at 100 yards the tables are turned since the round ball slows down very fast while the 230 grain 30 caliber will just keep on truckin.
Now at 20 yards would a caribou shot broadside drop dead faster from a 225 grain 54 caliber round ball or a 220 grain 30 caliber bullet , both at 1975 t0 2,000 fps ???
At 100, 150 and 200 yards we know the longer 30 caliber certainly has an advantage.
Oddly enough the regular foot pounds type of calculation makes a 160 grain 6.5mm bullet at 2,500 fps seem much more powerful than a 220 grain 30 caliber bullet at 2,000 fps. But the TKO values show otherwise...
As for 35 caliber bullets:
I agree that there are not enough choices with a good high BC. I have tried the 225 grain Nosler Accubonds (BC of .421) in my 350 Rem Mag, and in my 358 Norma Mag. They are a little too long for the 350 Rem Mag's neck.
The longer and heavier Nosler Partition bullets actually have a fairly high BC. Even the 225 brain partition has a BC of .430 due to its longer body. While the 250 grain partition has a BC of .446
I am currently using the Swift A-frame 280 grain bullets in both the Norma and the Rem Mag. While it only has a BC of .388 due to the blunt tip, but....no game critter within 300 yards will ever know the difference.
I am shooting them at 2,400 fps from my 8 pound Sourdough Rifle.
At 300 yards, which I consider the maximum ethical hunting distance for most rifles, the 280 grain slug is still going over 1,800 fps and still generates around 2,000 ft pounds of energy, which is the minimum I want for impact.
I sight it for around 230 yards and it is only 8-9 inches low at 300. While being within a hand width all the way out to 250.
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Kachok
Member
You keep twisting around the number and meaning of what I am saying, bullets are designed for a level of expansion/fragmentation, the 25 vs 50 cal exercise was to demonstrate termilnal ballistics only, and both properly designed to cause the most amout of trama possable through a 16" gel block or animal the results would be darn near identical.
Now one thing that I will give larger calibers an advantage in is in the tuning of those bullets. Lets face it you cannot get a more consistant performer then a heavy hard cast .40cal or larger bullet. It will do the same exact thing every time no matter if it hits at 3000 fps, or 900 fps, it will knock a hole in, a steady med/small hole all the way through and out the other side. No guess work to that, virtualy no chance at bullet malfunction, and it simply won't glance off of bones. That is what dangerous game hunter want, not the shock kill bullets they use on deer. They don't make more soft tissue damage, they are just more foolproof when thick hides and heavy bones are thrown in the mix. If there was any truth what so ever to the TKO formula on soft tissue damage the 25-06 would not be suitable for anything larger then a racoon, and we would all be hunting deer with 12ga slugs because they are four times as effective as your puney 270. In reality a 270 with proper bullets will drop a deer faster and more consistantly then any 12ga slug that I have ever used.
Now one thing that I will give larger calibers an advantage in is in the tuning of those bullets. Lets face it you cannot get a more consistant performer then a heavy hard cast .40cal or larger bullet. It will do the same exact thing every time no matter if it hits at 3000 fps, or 900 fps, it will knock a hole in, a steady med/small hole all the way through and out the other side. No guess work to that, virtualy no chance at bullet malfunction, and it simply won't glance off of bones. That is what dangerous game hunter want, not the shock kill bullets they use on deer. They don't make more soft tissue damage, they are just more foolproof when thick hides and heavy bones are thrown in the mix. If there was any truth what so ever to the TKO formula on soft tissue damage the 25-06 would not be suitable for anything larger then a racoon, and we would all be hunting deer with 12ga slugs because they are four times as effective as your puney 270. In reality a 270 with proper bullets will drop a deer faster and more consistantly then any 12ga slug that I have ever used.
coug
Member
floater: the fact still remains that we don't down load our modern cartridges to se I we can make a 30-40 out shoot a 300wm. that's just silly. I would personaly rather see Kachoks graph done with max loads so we can see the true gaps in standard vs magnum case/calibers.
Maverick223
Member
I feel that the TKO system is near ideal for dangerous game hunting/defense with solids (or well constructed expanding rounds), but it is not as applicable to other types of hunting. OTOH, the OGW is very accurate for faster cartridges, but discounts some of the punkin' chunkers (like the .45-70Govt. and 12Ga. slug) ability to keep going despite a speed deficit. Also the larger the diameter of the projectile the greater the tissue cavitation (but this also greatly depends upon the bullet construction). Neither system is perfect (nor is purely using energy as a guide), but a blend of the two (depending upon the characteristics of the cartridge and quarry) gives a fairly accurate representation of what a given cartridge is capable of. Honestly experience and common sense is the best guide.
BTW, a Brenneke black magic slug is a force to be reckoned with at close ranges and makes a near-perfect close range defense arm when stocked in a suitable 12Ga scattergun.
WRT the .35Whelen (and similar), the biggest advantage I see over the .338 cals. is the ability to use lightly constructed (and cheap!) .357cal. pistol bullets driven at moderate velocity for small game and plinking cartridges (which is the reason that I have determined to rechamber my Browning 1895 for the cartridge); however, like you, I would like to see a few modern boat-tails come out for it.
BTW, a Brenneke black magic slug is a force to be reckoned with at close ranges and makes a near-perfect close range defense arm when stocked in a suitable 12Ga scattergun.
WRT the .35Whelen (and similar), the biggest advantage I see over the .338 cals. is the ability to use lightly constructed (and cheap!) .357cal. pistol bullets driven at moderate velocity for small game and plinking cartridges (which is the reason that I have determined to rechamber my Browning 1895 for the cartridge); however, like you, I would like to see a few modern boat-tails come out for it.
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Coal Dragger
member
There is no perfect power rating system. Looking at kinetic energy is kind of meaningless for big bullets that are moving slow, and the TKO system is laughable for anything other than solids.
In a perfect world we would rate by using the recommended impact velocity for an expanding projectile, and then fire it into a standardized test medium to measure penetration and wound cavity. For better realism hard objects like bone could be placed in the test material to account for skeletal structure. Ratings could be measured based on performance in volume of wound cavity, penetration, and ability to defeat impacts with skeletal structures.
All other ratings are strictly numbers, and until the rubber meets the road, so to speak, those numbers don't mean much until they are applied.
In a perfect world we would rate by using the recommended impact velocity for an expanding projectile, and then fire it into a standardized test medium to measure penetration and wound cavity. For better realism hard objects like bone could be placed in the test material to account for skeletal structure. Ratings could be measured based on performance in volume of wound cavity, penetration, and ability to defeat impacts with skeletal structures.
All other ratings are strictly numbers, and until the rubber meets the road, so to speak, those numbers don't mean much until they are applied.
Kachok
Member
I will give the TKO guys one thing, they never PM me asking for a good reduced recoil 223/22 Hornet handload for deer. THOSE guys urk me off. A larger caliber heavy non-expanding bullet it the most effecient killer in the rifle world, 44 mags are know to reliably kill well below the 1000 ft lbs energy level, at speeds where no bullet expands. A 240gr .44cal that fails to expand impacting at a misrable 700fps will still penatrate about 28" and still make decent sized wound canal. Not something I would do but I know plenty of people that have and they continue to do so. 45-70s have this effect to an even greater extent because of their 400+gr bullets. Bullets use up energy deforming that is why solids can be so efficient assuming that penatration is required.
Anyway the the OGW formula is MUCH more realistic when we are talking about LEGAL expanding hunting bullets, shots through the vitals, and elk sized game. That is why I used it here. Chuck Hawks has a realistic formula as well, but it is scored in abstract numbers, and it takes 5 times longer to calculate.
Anyway the the OGW formula is MUCH more realistic when we are talking about LEGAL expanding hunting bullets, shots through the vitals, and elk sized game. That is why I used it here. Chuck Hawks has a realistic formula as well, but it is scored in abstract numbers, and it takes 5 times longer to calculate.
Float Pilot
Member
We have no such silly restrictions here in the last bastion of freedom.
But then again running into dangerous game is always a concern unless the snow has been on the ground for awhile. Brown Bear Bed Time..
You would assume that a big hard cast lead bullet would count as an expanding bullet... As would a soft lead round ball. Although they do not usually expand, but they may deform if striking bone.
But then again I think the 405 grain bullets are a touch on the light side for the 45-70. I prefer larger bores and heavy for caliber. I do not worry if anything expands or not.
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Kachok
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Well hard cast are not designed to expand per say, but any lead based bullet will experence some deformation aginst hard bone no matter how much zinc is in the mix. Although I oppose the TKO formula with every fiber of my being I think I have made it abondently clear that I also perfer heavy bullets, that is all I used in my final scoring was the heavier of the bullets available because in every single case they gave better downrange OGW even if the lighter bullet had slightly better ft/lbs heavier bullets have more momentum and that is what you really need to break heavy bones. Hit a deer in a heavy bone with a 22-250 and watch your bullet deflect or blow to pieces, my 6.5x55 with 140gr bullets turned a shoulder socket into a granade the other day completly destroying both shoulders, and leaving a nasty exit wound but the deer went streight down, and was dead before she touched the dirt. Light fradgile bullets will not do that consistantly.
biggameballs
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This is all great but hunting isn't done on paper. Just load up what ever gun you have adn can shoot well and get out there and hunt.
Nosler makes the Accubond in 225 gr. for the .358 calibers. Would this change anything?
Maverick223
Member
It promises to be a good bullet, but is a bit on the light side for good SD and BC.
Kachok
Member
I saw the accubond bullet. I did think about using it for the comparison, but 225gr is a tad light for the hefty 35 cal, the OGW formula (and myself) perfer heavy for caliber bullets. They just carry more momentum to longer ranges, and that is where your killing power is at, not TKO factor, not KE, not hydrostatic shock. BTW I am not the only experenced person who does not agree with the TKO here is a great quote from Chuck Hawks a well respected wrighter on all things gun and game.
"The horrific error in putting your faith in either kinetic energy or a Taylor Knock-Out value should be obvious. If you believe in TKO, a 12 gauge Foster slug is 13 times more deadly than a .223 Remington, almost four and one half times as lethal as a 30-30, and over 350% more deadly than a .308."
"The horrific error in putting your faith in either kinetic energy or a Taylor Knock-Out value should be obvious. If you believe in TKO, a 12 gauge Foster slug is 13 times more deadly than a .223 Remington, almost four and one half times as lethal as a 30-30, and over 350% more deadly than a .308."
coug
Member
I think we should all have to use 50 BMGs or 20mm then all others should be outlawed. it would make for great rabbit hunting.
it would make for great rabbit hunting.Kachok
Member
There is reasonable overkill and massive overkill. 50BMG is MASSIVE OVERKILL for anything that walks, but if you buy into TKO a bowling ball granny rolled at 10 FPS is HUGELY ABSURD MASSIVE OVERKILL LOL
Kachok
Member
Yeah I am planning on a leaver action and an assult rifle head to head I also want to do a scientific debunking of this stupid TKO formula everyone keeps throwing at me, I honestly though that died out 20 years ago with the advent of modern expanding bullets, I guess it waited until now to rear it's ugly head again.
I also want to do a scientific debunking of this stupid TKO formula everyone keeps throwing at me, I honestly though that died out 20 years ago with the advent of modern expanding bullets, I guess it waited until now to rear it's ugly head again.Freedom_fighter_in_IL
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It was sleeping after it was TKO'ed Kachok!! Sorry, was no way in the world I was passing THAT one up! 
Sorry, was no way in the world I was passing THAT one up! - Status
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