Head to Head: Low recoil hunting rifle

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I did not include the 223 because none of the 22cals did well at all, their poor BC and super light bullets keep them from getting good OGW numbers. That said the 223 is my favorite 300 yard varmint round, but for big game hunting the 6mm and up are just so much more effective.
 
On the recoil calculator I use there is a seperate recoil figure that adjusts for high speed bullets, in my experence very high speed calibers have a higher felt recoil then their regular calculated number implies. My 7mm rem mag pushing 140gr bullets at 3300 fps had a higher felt recoil then my 12 guage 3" magnum foster slugs IMHO. Does any one else have a similar experence or am I just crazy? If so I will adjust the recoil figures to line up with these other set of figures. I hope to finnish all my calculations and have a crowned king of the sissy kickers sometime real soon but I need some imput on this recoil issue.
 
The "impulse wave" from the rifle is a much higher frequency and much faster pressure curve than the slugs. Makes FELT recoil sting you more. Basically imagine it like this, I PUSH your shoulder with 25 pounds of force verses I snap a punch with equal power into your shoulder. Which do you think you will PERCEIVE hit harder? I am pretty sure there is a calculation in those things for the impulse wave but my Physics is rusty to say the least.
 
Kachok, in answer to your question I have the .300 Wtby.. Although most people seem to disagree, I never thought the recoil was that objectionable. After forty rounds benchrest I will admit my shoulder was somewhat sore, but while I was shooting it didn't seem to bother me that much. When hunting and shooting offhand it was hardly noticeable. One way or the other it's a sweet caliber and it always did the job hunting elk, moose and brown bear.
 
Oh don't get me wrong as an experenced shooter I can handle several boxes of 3" magnum slugs freehand shooting, that is aprox 36lbs of recoil according to conventional ballistics calculators, equivilent to a 375 H&H. That said I enjoy a light recoil rifle so much more, my 270s and 6.5x55 are a pleasure to shoot in any position where as doing load development on a 7mm rem mag with warm loads prone or on a bench can be painful and it starts effecting my shooting after 20 rounds or so. There is a huge difference between bench/prone shooting and shooting in a standing/kneeling position. The movement of the upper body absorbs most of the recoil when it is allowed to move. Shooting prone allows no such movement. Back to my original question, do high speed rounds effect your shoulder differently then low speed heavier bullets? I think so and the creater of the recoil calculator that I use thinks so as well. The recoil impulse factor could very well make all the difference when crowning our king of the sissy kickers if it puts the 25-06 and 240 Wby into a whole different class of recoil then the 7mm-08 and the 6.5x55.
 
OK yall time to wrap up the sissy kicker shoot off. But 1st let me make a revision the load I used for the .257 Roberts was not a +P that all modern rifles are chamberd for. I did manage to find a verified +P load and while it is not quite as hot as the Horandy Superperfamance +P it should give you a good idea. The new speed is 115gr Burger Hunting VLD 2940fps the MPBR is 291 yards, the recoil is 12.2lbs and the OGW @300 is 268lbs.
All recoil numbers were adjusted for recoil impulse. This revision put some of the calibers well over the 14lbs limit but we will keep them going despite the revision. . A far ranking system should deduct 10 points for every 1lbs over 10 lbs of recoil and add 10 points for every 1lbs under 10 lbs, after all we are talking about sissy kickers.



-------------------22-250--243--257R-25-06--260-6.5x55-7-08-6mmRem-240 Wby
MPBR 331 yards--------100---93---88----92----87---85----86---96-----98
max range 700 yards----25---68---75----86----96--100----89---75-----82
OGW 370lbs-------------19---63---72----86----86--100----99---71-----77
Adjusted recoil lbs ------8.9-12.3--12.2--16.0--14.3-13.8--14.5--14.2--16.5
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Points----------------144--224--235---264---269--285----274--242----257
Recoil points-N/P------P11--N23--N22--N60---N43--N38----N45--N42---N65
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Final score------------155--201--213---204--226---247---229--200---192

The KING of the sissy kickers is the 6.5x55 :eek:

What this all comes down to is effecency. The old Mauser round has the best aerodynamic effecency by a fair margin and has exellent combustion effecency, It takes only 43gr of IMR 4350 powder to extract that level of performance from the old gal, less then the 243, less then 260 Rem, and less then the 6mm Rem loads listed here. The 140gr bullet seemes to be the best compromise of speed and mass, the 1800fps min for bullet opening and 1000ft/lbs for ethical killing energy line up just right making this a very well ballenced cartrage. Makes you think them darn Sweeds might have known what they were doing 120 years ago :) It's performance was so impressive that even with plain jane flat base 140gr soft points it still holds a score or 213!
 
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Very interesting. I would have thought that the 260 would have been much closer to the 6.5x55 than your numbers suggest. It sort of makes me wonder about how a 6.5x57 would do.
 
The 260 would have been much closer if I had used 140gr bullets for the test, but there were a couple of issues with that. There seemes to be some debate on what rifling twist a 260 should have, I have seen 1:8 that will stabalize 140s and 1:10 that will NOT! The 260 was designed for improved performance with 120-130gr spritzer bullets, the performance with 140s tend to lean the way of the 6.5x55 due to it's slightly larger case. Besides there was not a 260 rem load that would push that kind of speed with that small of a powder charge so even if I did score the 260 with the 140s the 6.5x55 would still have it's crown.
 
Kachok, you can wrap
Code: 
your   table    data
in    'code'    tags
to     preserve formatting

This will force the forum to display those sections in a fixed-width font.
 
Just to be fair to the 260 rem fans out there I am posting the numbers for a 260 rem with a barrel that will stabalize VLD 140s.
140gr @2725 fps MPBR 277yards recoil 13.7lbs OGW@300yards 354lbs Max range 675 yards. With 43.5gr of N560 powder.

84 points+96points+96points-37 for recoil adjustment= 239 points a solid second place.

Now mind you the 260 and 6.5x55 are both capable of 2800fps+speeds with 140gr bullets, which can push the performance envalope further I don't know I only load one of them. But either way those loads are beyond our 14lbs limit here, a properly loaded 260rem 1:8 twist should run neck and neck with the 6.5x55 assuming both are using 140s.
 
The larger case capacity and longer throats used in the 6.5x55mm rifles seem to reduce the actual felt recoil impulse. Maybe the initial acceleration is slower. It was designed in the early 1890s. I have always liked the 6.5x55 Swede over the 260 since it allows longer COL without shoving the bullet back into the powder and the neck is long enough to give proper bullet support.

The same seems to go for the 7x57mm Mauser and it's little sister the 257 Roberts. The 7x57mm Mauser was extremely popular in my area of Alaska back in the 50s, 60s and early 70s. They were inexpensive and they were perfect for people of slighter stature to shoot. Plus the 7x57mm did a bang-up job on moose, black bear, caribou, and occasionally brown bear. (Griz to non-old time Alaskans.)

My first center-fire rifle was a $30, M-98 DWM made, cavalry carbine (Brazilian contract) in 7x57mm. I have harvested every game critter in Alaska with that rifle except Bison. Over the last 45 years it has been modified and improved a few times.
 
One more revision to make. The 140gr 6.5mm VLD Hunting has a BC of .612!:what: The .595BC number I had was a misprint on Midway's website. So add another 3-5 points to the 6.5x55s/260s already impressive lead.
 
Thanks for the hard work and excellent and very helpful information, Kachok.

I'm also glad to see my Swede is in first place, and if I read your chart correctly, my 7mm-08 comes in second.

On a side note, my 7-08 has the much-maligned 1:11.5 twist, but it seems to shoot just fine.

I would still like to know how the Swedes did it so well.

Thanks, again

Sissy Kickers rule!
 
I will be including full power loadings of the 6.5x55, 260 rem, 25-06, and 7mm-08 in my next thread addressing the harder kicking "Practical Big Game Hunting Rifles". This will cover rifles from 15lbs of recoil to 25lbs of recoil in 8lbs setups. The 7-08 was not on a level playing feild in this exercise because the recoil limit reduced it's bullet weights and speeds below their optamum level. When you can make a 7mm-08 push 150gr+ high BC bullets to respectable speeds it will really come into it's own and might just show up the 6.5mms.
BTW if anyone thinks my structure or scoring system is unfairly in any way, or if there is some other major factor that I should include in the next Head To Head, please tell me what's on your mind. I am trying to make this as objective and scientific as possable.
 
We're all thinking it, but I'm gonna say it. Please, in the line of other requests made in this thread, make the opposite thread: head to head - heavy recoil hunting rifles

I'm not saying you gotta duke it out with the 4-something weee-bee mag, but at least the 375hh? :evil:
 
I am trying to do this in order of game appropriate rifles, the sissy kickers are suitable for any deer-goat, the Practical Big Game rifles are suitable for Elk-Moose, and the Heavy Hitters will be for the biggest and baddest on the planet. It is kind of hard to compare the 270 to the 375 H&H magnum IMHO
 
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Almost done with my intial post for the next thread, I am still trying to find a fair formula to score them, the method I used here will probably not be suitable for that varity of calibers. They range everywhere from 15-30lbs of recoil. 260 rem all the way to 35 Whelen :)
 
Yes the shoulder buster class is next, don't worry I will give you a breakdown of shoulder breakers in vivid painful detail LOL Hot load 460 Wby mag :what:
 
Freedom_fighter_in_IL said:
Like I have said before, the 7mm.08 is what the .308 WANTED to be but just didn't quite get there.
Click to expand...
As have I...if the .308Win. was designed to replicate the venerable .30-06Spd, they got something wrong. OTOH the 7mm-08Rem. is like a miniature '06, a marvelous cartridge that is about as good as they come for deer and such.

Good job on the list, Kachok. My favorites (for this class of cartridge) are all in the top 3. That said, I have come to prefer the .260Rem. a bit more than the 6.5x55mmSwede because it is short action and components. I don't consider the 6mm bores to be an ideal deer caliber, and anything smaller is dismal at best. Quarter bores do pretty well, but afford no significant performance advantage (over the 6 or 6.5mms) and have a poor bullet selection. The .30-30Win. is a fantastic cartridge, and are available in some of the handiest rifles of any kind, but many folks want more range (arguably most don't need nor use it, but that is another story).

:)
 
Don't get me wrong, there is NOTHING wrong with a 25-06. It holds a respectable level of killing energy to long ranges and shoots very flat, the reson it did not rank very high is because it lost a bunch of points in the recoil department, if the recoil of the 25-06 does not bother you at all forget that deduction and it's score is darn close to the top compedators. That is the way this ranking system works, If you were only shooting 80lbs FL deer within 50 yards, and you had a glass shoulder the 6.8SPC would be the clear winner :) The ranks are "all around" scores not The Word of God or anything LOL
 
Now worries Kachok ;)

Truth be known I've killed way more deer with the 30-30 in a Marlin lever gun. It was the only game sized cartridge I had until after college, and I liked lever guns so much that it , and a 22lr were about all I had in my hands through my 20's. :eek:

I'm not really recoil shy. I'm really interested to see how my 7mm Remmy Maggy fairs in your next test.

Thank again for all your work on these charts.........Tentwing
 
The next test is already posted, unfortunatly it does not seem to be getting the attention this one has. 7mm Rem mag is beating out the other super flat shooting guns, including my 270 WSM :( Well that is a comparison for Elk sized game, the WSM shoots just as flat for deer purposes. The top score thus far belongs to the plain old 308!! It just has such great internal and external ballistics properties. The good old 30-06 is only 1 point behind it and the 280 Rem is 1 point behind that. Oh course that is not a final score yet, the Big 7 or 06 could still catch it.
 
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