Help diagnosing misfires and blown primers in my 25-06

[aggiejet]

I am shooting a 2 year old Savage 111 25-06 and made a batch of ammo as follows:

Brass: Once fired Hornady
Bullet: Hornady 117 gr SST #25522
Powder: 56 gr RL-22
Primer: CCI

Process: Single stage Pacific Power C (I think) with Lee dies. I prime using the ram in the press. I clean the primer pockets, trim all the cases, use a RCBS three beam scale and weigh each load of powder.

I fired seven rounds of the above recipe. Of those 7, I had 4 primers blown out of the pockets, two misfires, and one normal shot. After those shots I quit firing that ammo and went to store and bought a box of Hornady factory ammo. I fired six shots with no misfires and no blown primers and then a thunderstorm rolled in and I quit shooting.

The picture I attached of the four loose primers are the ones that blew out of the pocket. I don't have a close up lens for my camera for a super close up. A couple of the primers are cratering and one looks to almost have a hole in it. The other pic shows the two misfires, top row, side by side.

Although this looks like faulty reloading, I recently shot a box of Remington factory 120 gr ammo and had two misfires out of that box. However, after that box, I shot 40 rounds of Hornady factory with no misfires. I then reloaded a batch of 20 similar to the above recipe but used Hornady 2552 bullet and had no misfires or blown primers.

I have not kept good records on exact numbers up to this point (gonna start), but I think out of about 220 handloads, I have had about 5-8 misfires. Out of about 140 Factory rounds, I have had 2 misfires. (the Remington's mentioned above)

I think I can blame the blown primers on the "hot" load of RL-22 I was shooting. That said, the misfires are driving me crazy. An internet search seems to show a few complaints of misfires from this particular gun. So I guess it's possible I am seeing two problems. 1) too much pressure on the reloads 2) bad bolt or firing pin/spring in the rifle

Thanks for the help,
Mark

 

[aggiejet]

here are the pictures mentioned in the post

The misfires are the two rounds sitting side by side on the top row

 

[Reefinmike]

Note: I am not familiar with this caliber or your reloading practices.

Did you work up to this load or did you just dump the powder in and give it a go? My lee manual indicates a max of 52 grains with a 120gr bullet. you are 4gr over that. Pictures of your fired primers indicate that load is HOT!!!

As for your duds- looks like a solid primer strike. Not that I'd recommend shooting that load again, but I'll bet they would go off with a second hit. likely they were not fully seated into the primer pocket.

 

[morcey2]

It looks to me like you blew way past "hot" and slammed headlong into "dangerously overpressure". The primer is flowing into the firing pin hole, the case is flowing into the ejector hole, and the case head is expanding to the point that the primers don't fit anymore.

Whatever you do, don't shoot anymore of them.

I've reloaded several thousand rifle rounds and I've yet to have a misfire on any of my reloads. Make sure that the primers are seated correctly, a couple thousandths below flush. I don't know how to check firing pin protrusion on a savage, but make sure that is correct also.

ETA:
Hornady shows 56 gr as max in their load data, but if that's where you started you may have already damaged your gun. Their max doesn't mean it's safe in your gun. Do you know how much jump you have before the bullet touches the lands?

My suggestions:
1. Pick up a good hand primer so you can feel the primer bottom out.
2. Pull all your 25-06 handloads down, salvage the bullets and powder, and work up a load instead of assuming that the max load is safe in your rifle.

Matt

 

[notaglockfanboy]

Looks like you are shooting a REALLY HOT LOAD!!! It also looks like you should check your scales, if you weighed all the charges by hand you have some serious variations. Some of those primers are way too flat to be normal pressure and some of them look almost normal. Shoot them over a chrony and see the variation in velocity. First thing is back off the powder charge, Lee 2nd edition shows never exceed 52.0 grains in the 115 and 120 grain bullet. You are going to hurt yourself or someone else if you keep shooting hot loads like that. Not sure where you came up with that load data, but you are WAY over max.

 

[Reefinmike]

It looks to me like you blew way past "hot" and slammed headlong into "dangerously overpressure". The primer is flowing into the firing pin hole, the case is flowing into the ejector hole, and the case head is expanding to the point that the primers don't fit anymore.

Whatever you do, don't shoot anymore of them.

I've reloaded several thousand rifle rounds and I've yet to have a misfire on any of my reloads. Make sure that the primers are seated correctly, a couple thousandths below flush. I don't know how to check firing pin protrusion on a savage, but make sure that is correct also.

ETA:
Hornady shows 56 gr as max in their load data, but if that's where you started you may have already damaged your gun. Their max doesn't mean it's safe in your gun. Do you know how much jump you have before the bullet touches the lands?

My suggestions:
1. Pick up a good hand primer so you can feel the primer bottom out.
2. Pull all your 25-06 handloads down, salvage the bullets and powder, and work up a load instead of assuming that the max load is safe in your rifle.

Matt

ooh wow! I didnt even notice that. look at the difference in the headstamp from the once fired loads on the left to the ones on the right. Attempt to load that load another time or two and I doubt there would even be a legible headstamp... that is if your gun is still in one piece

 

[aggiejet]

The Hornady Handbook shows 56 gr of RL-22 as the high end. I didn't start there. I worked up there from a previous batch of twenty I made working up from the low end of the chart to the high end, but with a different bullet. (Hornady has same recipe for three different bullets) My gun shot better at the high end of the charges. That is how I came up with shooting at the high end, but I didn't have any blown primers.

I will give the hand primer a go, but that doesn't explain the factory ammo misfires. Additionally, every time I have a misfire, I rechamber the round and try it again, but they still don't fire. Although I have very little experience, if the problem was the unseated primer, I would think they would fire the second time.

 

[30Cal]

I'm thinking you made an excessive headspace condition by sizing too much (or your rifle just has excessive headspace). That would explain both your issues.

 

[aggiejet]

I'm thinking you made an excessive headspace condition by sizing too much (or your rifle just has excessive headspace). That would explain both your issues.

How do you "size too much"?

Is is possible to have too much headspace in a new gun?

 

[rcmodel]

Primer: CCI

Exactly what CCI primer number is printed on the box?
Regardless of that, you are within 1/10th. grain of the MAX load shown in Hornady #6.

But you are already 2.5 over the 53.5 Max shown by Lyman with a 117 Sierra.

And already 4.0 over the Max shown by Speer for a 120.

So, you started out too hot, and probably have already damaged the rifle.
And certainly already damaged the firing pin tip from gas erosion from the pierced primers.

In short.
You need to back off and start over with starting loads this time.

After first replacing the firing pin.
If not the bolt head, and having a gunsmith re-set the headspace.

In the meantime.
STOP trying to shoot the rifle.

It is a sick puppy right now until checked by a qualified gun vet.

rc

 

[243winxb]

Alliant has 52.0 gr as Maximum for 115 and 120 gr bullets. Misfires are from a slow firing pin velocity, if the primer is seated correctly. Clean the firing pin channel. My Savage does not care how the brass is sized. The primer will fire with no shoulder on the case.

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[aggiejet]

<<Do you know how much jump you have before the bullet touches the lands?>>

Matt,

No, I don't know how much jump I have.

How do you find that out?

 

[TimSr]

I'll pile on. Always start at starting load. If you change any component from a prior load, go back to start.

What CCI primer? Pistol primer?

When your test load starts blowing out and piercing primers, its time to stop shooting that load! I'm guessing your failures to fire are a result of gas and soot being blown back into the firing pin hole through the pierced and blown primers.

 

[ku4hx]

According to the Alliant data I have you're about 4 full grains over maximum. My Alliant booklet show 52 grains as max with a 115 grain bullet.

You need to drop back to the starting point of 90% max (about 47 grains) and work up.

 

[sage5907]

I load and shoot a 25-06 all year long. My Speer manual shows a 52 grain max of Re 22 for a 120 grain bullet so as the others have said you are at least 4 grains above max. I have only blown 2 primers in 46 years of reloading. You used up 4 of your 9 cat lives on that one trip to the range. You're lucky you had 2 misfires. You could have pieces of metal from the blown primers in the firing pin area that kept the firing pin from hitting hard enough to fire the rifle.

 

[joem1945]

I've found that loads somewhere between 92% and 98% of the maximum recommended load will give the best accuracy. NO Reason To Hot Load and it's dangerous.

 

[ironworkerwill]

Loading past operating pressure will ruin the brass and create a dangerous situation.

This is mostly caused by seating the bullet out too far(jamming or in the lands) or using the incorrect charge/powder. As a beginner only use powder and load suggested for a caliber/ weight by a notable source. Use the correct starting recipe.


See the small round protrusions on the case head? That is the #1 big red flashing light! You have caused the brass to flow into the ejector, past the plane of the bolt face( a bad thing).

I don't know where you got your data but Alliant Powder says to Start 10% below max!. The charges listed on the Alliant site are max charges.

Throw that ruined brass in the scrap bin and pull all of your loaded ammunition then start over from the bottom. DO NOT SHOOT THE REST



Your failure to fire(s) were probably caused by proud primers. They need to be seated flush or slightly deeper than the case head. If they are proud the firing pin has to push the primer in against the anvil resulting in a failure to fire. In other words seat them deeper.


Just seat your bullets at the C.O.L that the loading recipe calls for. You should be fine as long as you are using the exact bullet for that load. You shot factory loaded ammo with no ill effect so you probably don't have a problem with the rifle.

* I failed to read you had misfires on a box of factory Remingtons. Your firing pin protrusion may be set incorrectly. Optimal protrusion should be .035'' if you have trouble measuring FP let me know.

 

[30Cal]

How do you "size too much"?

Is is possible to have too much headspace in a new gun?

By threading the die down too far.

Popped primers and misfires should be a pretty red flag for excessive headspace. Does it matter at that point if the gun is new?

 

[Clint M]

So many people give you the correct info that load is screaming hot, and you are one luck person. Reduce your load back to start, work back up with any bullet change !! The case heads look like they have been put thru the wringer, anytime you see bright marks, letters flattened, odd looking round case heads consider yourself lucky. You can't go so much by the primer, however when combined with your case heads notice the primer has yielded to the point that it has extruded itself into the firing pin hole ? I would say your pushing +75,000 psi !!!

Also the bolt head, firing pin area of your bolt is almost for sure damaged as the hot gasses erode the metal at the temp and pressure with such a small area it's like a blowtorch on steroids maybe edm ? This can be repaired however...clean the bolt head good if it's etched have it repaired before firing any as this itself creates a dangerous condition. I have sized cases way to much before never seen this except for over pressure loads, I have also seated bullets jammed into the lands never a pressure sign as I work up from starting loads..this problem is caused by excessive pressure= to much powder.

You really are lucky..go buy a lottery ticket, don't repeat the mistake..learning is something we all do. If you don't have one purchase a reloading manual from lee, speer, hornady, sierra etc study it well on working up a load, choosing starting loads new components etc.

 

[aggiejet]

All,

I am using current manuals from Hornady and Sierra, as those are the bullets I am reloading. I also have a lyman manual, but don't use it, as I don't have Lyman bullets. I didn't guess at a powder charge. Hornady shows RL-22 can be loaded up to 56.1 grains. I had worked up to that amount with a box of 20 that I loaded starting from low end and working up. As I mentioned, the higher the load, the better the gun shot. That said, I have never been able to shoot anything that I would call a good group (silver dollar size at 100 yds) , even with factory ammo. However, it is obvious that the current loads have too much powder in them, and I need to check the reliability of my scale.

I will have my gun checked for headspace and bolt damage and firing pin protrusion. Is this sort of work run of mill gunsmithing thing, or should I send the gun to Savage?

I will get a hand primer and see if that fixes the misfires.

Thanks

 

[aggiejet]

By threading the die down too far.

Popped primers and misfires should be a pretty red flag for excessive headspace. Does it matter at that point if the gun is new?

My Lee die instructions say to screw the die in the press until it touches the ram. Then approx a 1/3 to 1/2 turn more. (I am doing this from memory, so do hold me to those exact instructions)

Is this extra turn what you mean by threading the die down too far?

 

[RugerOldArmy]

Checking the headspace is easy with a go-gauge and a no-go gauge. You should be able to close the bolt on the go gauge, but not the no-go gauge. These gauges are cartridge specific, and relatively cheap, about $30 each...but a gunsmith may have them, if you only need them once.

Adjusting headspace on a Savage 111 is particularly easy, since they are made with a barrel nut. Go to SavageShooters.com and you can get an article on it, in gory detail...but basically, with the barrel nut, you can put a piece of scotch tape on a go-gauge base, and screw/wrench the barrel into adjustment. You need a barrel nut wrench and a vise setup. (This is still MUCH less involved than a Remington, which requires machining.)

Those loads did look hot though. On guns that run high pressure cartridges, smiths often bush the firing pin hole to minimize the gap between the hole and the pin. This is done to avoid pierced primers, keeping primer metal from flowing into the gap.

Those popped primers may very well have let hot gas flow by the pin and erode the pin and the hole, making this problem worse. This is why RCModel noted your should have a gunsmith look at it to determine if the gap is too large, or if your firing pin was eroded.

On military/tactical rifles like Accuracy International(s), the gap between the hole and the pin is a bit larger, for reliability, and people consciously keep loads at levels where the primers don't begin to crater. That same load may be fine in a benchrest gun, with a strong action and a bushed firing pin. The 111 is a hunting gun, not a benchrest gun, and isn't normally a very high-tolerance fit.

I'd recommend that you let a gunsmith take a look. On a Savage, you can replace the bolt head if the firing pin hole eroded, and/or the pin, pretty easily, quickly, and cheaply. It is also a simple matter (but tricky the first time) to adjust the extension of the firing pin.

Given this is new to you, a safety issue, and that a gunsmith likely has an appropriate set of go & no-go gauges, I recommend that as a safe cheap option for now. When you get more familiar, and perhaps want to change a barrel, you can look further.

Here is what a go-gauge (and a no-go is just longer) looks like.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/763039/forster-headspace-go-gage-30-06-springfield-25-06-remington-270-winchester-8mm-06-springfield-338-06-a-square-35-whelen

One last bit of advice....chasing velocity to the extreme isn't worth it. If you really need more than you're getting safely, you should choose a different cartridge.

 

[rayatphonix]

I might also try a different powder, especially as you noted you've never gotten the accuracy you want. IMR 4350 works well for my 25-06.

 

[243winxb]

Pressure Signs

#3 The primer pocket may expand a little at each firing, getting loose in 5 reloads or less, is high pressure.

 

[627PCFan]

Just curious.....how was the accuracy lol