Help diagnosing misfires and blown primers in my 25-06

[fguffey]

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I am shooting a 2 year old Savage 111 25-06 and made a batch of ammo as follows:

The length of the chamber is adjustable when the chamber is measured from the shoulder to the bolt face. When sizing a case the length of the case is adjustable from the shoulder to the case head. There is a maximum, a die and shell holder should not be able to size a case shorter than minimum length/full length sized. Problem, there are reloaders that grind the bottom of the die and or top of the shell holder.

I do not have these problems, if the rifle was my rifle and I had a problem with light primer strikes, blown ? primers and cratered primers I would start forming a 280 Remington case to 25/06. There is no way I could miss with the 280 Remington case, the shoulder is forward of the 25/06 by .051", I would start with .020" meaning I would add .020" to the length of the 25/06 case between the shoulder and case head. And no, I would not load the formed case, I would chamber it to determine if the bolt would close.

Next time, I would suggest you save a new, over the counter store bought round for comparison, If new factory over the counter ammo works, the next time you reload make your reloads look like the factory new over the counter ammo.

You could start saving your fired brass, I would suggest you learn to measure the length of the case from the datum/shoulder to the case head. When comparing the fired case length to the sized case length from the shoulder to the case head you will be able to determine the effect sizing is having on your cases.

F. Guffey

 

[sage5907]

I have been reloading with RCBS equipment for so long that I forget about the problems that others mention when discussing reloading. The quickest way for you to resolve the case chamber length problem is for you to buy an RCBS shell holder and a set of RCBS dies with a full length resizer die. I understand that a Pacific Power C press will accept a standard shell holder. If you screw the sizing die down until it touches the shell holder at the top of the stroke it will size your cases to about .002 shorter than the SAAMI standard chamber length. The dies and the shell holder won't cost you much and it's a whole lot better than getting an eye put out or damaging your rifle. Also if you load bullets no hotter than 2 grains below the bullet manufacturer's maximum recommendations you won't get into this kind of trouble.

 

[aggiejet]

I have been reloading with RCBS equipment for so long that I forget about the problems that others mention when discussing reloading. The quickest way for you to resolve the case chamber length problem is for you to buy an RCBS shell holder and a set of RCBS dies with a full length resizer die. I understand that a Pacific Power C press will accept a standard shell holder. If you screw the sizing die down until it touches the shell holder at the top of the stroke it will size your cases to about .002 shorter than the SAAMI standard chamber length. The dies and the shell holder won't cost you much and it's a whole lot better than getting an eye put out or damaging your rifle. Also if you load bullets no hotter than 2 grains below the bullet manufacturer's maximum recommendations you won't get into this kind of trouble.

Great. Something else I am screwing up.

When I started down this road i thought it was going to be fun and rewarding. So far all I can say is that I am the luckiest guy in the world for not blowing my face off.

 

[30Cal]

My Lee die instructions say to screw the die in the press until it touches the ram. Then approx a 1/3 to 1/2 turn more. (I am doing this from memory, so do hold me to those exact instructions)

Is this extra turn what you mean by threading the die down too far?

Sort of. Depending on the dimensions of the sizing die you have and the shellholder you have, it could be too much. A case comparator would allow you to take some real measurements (which is fairly inexpensive and I would recommend it anytime you're FL resizing).

 

[fguffey]

The quickest way for you to resolve the case chamber length problem is for you to buy an RCBS shell holder and a set of RCBS dies with a full length resizer die.

If the deck height of the shell holder is .125" it does not matter which brand. Same for the die, there are ways to determine if the case is being returned to minimum length/full length sized.

F. Guffey

 

[sage5907]

You're right fguffy, the deck height on a RCBS shell holder is .125. All I was saying was that if he used an RCBS shell holder and an RCBS full length resizer die aggiejet doesn't have to worry about the sizing of the cases, just do it and the chamber length will be correct. I have never used other brands so I don't know if their products are compatible but I trust RCBS.

aggiejet, you had a good learning experience. Reloading is fun and very satisfying after you learn what not to do. It is one hobby that doesn't allow for mistakes. The reason most of the guys on thehighroad tell you to reduce your powder charge when developing a load and work up in increments is to see pressure signs if you are measuring the powder charge wrong or have a problem with your cases. The truth is, I have never had a problem with high pressures when I stayed 2 grains under the bullet manufacturer's max load.

 

[RugerOldArmy]

The quickest way for you to resolve the case chamber length problem is for you to buy an RCBS shell holder and a set of RCBS dies with a full length resizer die. I understand that a Pacific Power C press will accept a standard shell holder. If you screw the sizing die down until it touches the shell holder at the top of the stroke it will size your cases to about .002 shorter than the SAAMI standard chamber length.

Or you could get a case gauge...and it will help you determine when you need to trim as well....

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/455564/le-wilson-case-length-headspace-gage-25-06-remington

 

[gamestalker]

Unless your firing pin has a chipped or other wise damaged tip, I would think the load is to hot, as the data would suggest.

Regarding the mis fires, that is very likely a case of primers not being seated deep enough. Did you try firing the mis fires a second time?

Solution, back the load down to published start, work back up looking for pressure signs, such as stiff bolt lift, circular extractor transfer marks on case head, excessive primer flow and cratered primers.

GS

 

[aggiejet]

30 Cal wrote:

<<Sort of. Depending on the dimensions of the sizing die you have and the shellholder you have, it could be too much. A case comparator would allow you to take some real measurements (which is fairly inexpensive and I would recommend it anytime you're FL resizing)>>

I have a Wilson Cartridge Case gauge. Is that what you mean by case comparator?

I dont know what kind of shell holder I have. Is there a way to identify them. It is only labeled with a 2 or 4. (I have two, the other one is for my .222)

Looking at Midway's website, I believe I have Lee shellholders, because they are stamped with the 2 and 4. I assume RCBS are marked differently.

 

[aggiejet]

The length of the chamber is adjustable when the chamber is measured from the shoulder to the bolt face. When sizing a case the length of the case is adjustable from the shoulder to the case head. There is a maximum, a die and shell holder should not be able to size a case shorter than minimum length/full length sized. Problem, there are reloaders that grind the bottom of the die and or top of the shell holder.

I do not have these problems, if the rifle was my rifle and I had a problem with light primer strikes, blown ? primers and cratered primers I would start forming a 280 Remington case to 25/06. There is no way I could miss with the 280 Remington case, the shoulder is forward of the 25/06 by .051", I would start with .020" meaning I would add .020" to the length of the 25/06 case between the shoulder and case head. And no, I would not load the formed case, I would chamber it to determine if the bolt would close.

Next time, I would suggest you save a new, over the counter store bought round for comparison, If new factory over the counter ammo works, the next time you reload make your reloads look like the factory new over the counter ammo.

You could start saving your fired brass, I would suggest you learn to measure the length of the case from the datum/shoulder to the case head. When comparing the fired case length to the sized case length from the shoulder to the case head you will be able to determine the effect sizing is having on your cases.

F. Guffey

That is exactly what I was attempting to do, and by all accounts I had exactly duplicated the Hornady Superperformance 117 gr SST (except of course i dont have the correct powder loads)

That powder in that factory cartridge is really funny looking. I saw a red flake of powder in the one i opened up, for example.

 

[aggiejet]

If the deck height of the shell holder is .125" it does not matter which brand. Same for the die, there are ways to determine if the case is being returned to minimum length/full length sized.

F. Guffey

I have no idea what you mean by deck height of the shell holder or how to measure it.

 

[243winxb]

Deck heigth is about .125"

[/URL][/IMG] Measure with the end of a RCBS Dial Caliper type unit.

 

[aggiejet]

Deck heigth is about .125"

[/URL][/IMG]

Thanks, I'll go measure mine.

I will also pull all the bullets and measure each case with my Wilson a case gauges.

 

[aggiejet]

Unless your firing pin has a chipped or other wise damaged tip, I would think the load is to hot, as the data would suggest.

Regarding the mis fires, that is very likely a case of primers not being seated deep enough. Did you try firing the mis fires a second time?

Solution, back the load down to published start, work back up looking for pressure signs, such as stiff bolt lift, circular extractor transfer marks on case head, excessive primer flow and cratered primers.

GS

Yes, that is what is a little perplexing. Rechambering does not produce a fired cartridge. Additionally, I have two misfires from factory Remington ammo.

 

[243winxb]

Misfires

From Post 13

I'm guessing your failures to fire are a result of gas and soot being blown back into the firing pin hole through the pierced and blown primers.

Pieces of metal primer may also be in the firing pin channel. The bolt needs to be cleaned to know if its causing misfires. If you feel there is a problem with how the brass is FL sized, buy a neck sizing die. Like this one http://www.midwayusa.com/product/452585/rcbs-neck-sizer-die-25-06-remington Hope this helps.

 

[aggiejet]

I measured my deck height of my Lee shell holder. It is .122 That said, it would seem that using a Lee shell holder with Lee dies would be appropriate. Regardless, I measured all of my cases after I pulled the bullets. I believe I have "sized too much" as several suggested as my cases were about .005-.007 short (just an eyeball check), according to my Wilson case gauges.

Here is something I found interesting on the Wilson case gauge instruction sheet:

"Setting up full length resizing based off fired cases LE Wilson Preferred Method:

• check your cases in as-fired condition
  

If the head projects above the upper step, adjust your die as above to where the resized case drops even with the upper step or a little below. The idea is to push the shoulder back as little as possible to allow easy chambering. The rezised case needs only to drop .002 to .003 below the fired case."

So now I guess I don't really understand the difference between full size and only neck sizing dies.

 

[243winxb]

Use the Wilson gage as you describe above and you will be ok. You will not need a neck die. The neck die sizes only the case neck area that holds the bullet. The body of the case is not touched. About .005-.007 is not enough to cause misfires, as the firing pin protrusion will easly contact the primer. If you have misfires with factory ammo, it may be time to return rifle to Savage or see a gun smith.

 

[aggiejet]

I took the rifle to the store where I bought it, as they have an on-site gunsmith. I should know something in about two weeks.

Something I noticed tonight while I was pulling all of my bullets was that the Hornady 117 gr SST were seated very deep into the neck, moreso than the Sierra bullets I had loaded in the past. Common sense would tell me that deep bullet seating was exacerbating the high pressure of the high powder charges. I am looking into some gear like bullet comparators and OAL length gauges to help me get a better fit for this particular gun.

Thanks for the input

 

[quartermaster]

V

Very scary to me. I would suggest reading the front part of all your reloading manuals before you get to the data part. There is also a lot of great info on the net with step by step reloading instructions and warning signs.

Reloading is a great hobby and can provide a lot of satisfaction, but can be very dangerous if you just dive into it without knowing the total process and why things are done the way they are. Maybe you have a friend or neighbor that could mentor you a bit.

I am by no means trying to belittle you, but think you need to have a better understanding of the proceess. Kabooms can be bad for you and your rifle.

A lot of good info was listed above from getting your rifle checked out to warning signs of extremely hot loads. Heed that advise, proceed cautiously and safely, and most importantly, get a better understanding of the whole process. QM

 

[Clint M]

aggiejet it very well could have been the bullet seated deeper in the case. That's why all the loading manuals and people also say start over when changing any component such as brass case (you can get reduced capacity causing high pressure) different bullet even in same weight (bullets differ wildly in length, composition etc) powder (burn rates change) primers (primers also vary wildly strength of metal along with charge).

By using the wilson case gauge you now know how much your die is sizing the case. It's not bad, and for hunting .005" would be about right. I think your die choice (full length) and your die setup is good, no reason to change it introducing yet another possible problem. Neck dies in hunting rifles are not an option for me, the reason being you will have brass that will eventually be hard to chamber. The option is a body die to size the shoulder area back= more money, more time, accuracy ? (not an attack on neck sizer people)

It may have been a pain to ask this question when you first posted this thread, however I feel you have already learned a lot. Being able to measure, and control your sizing of case is a huge step in handloading, you should also apply this to other bottleneck cartridges. You determined the longer bullet, and how much more is in the case which reduces case capacity driving pressure up, apply this on any component change start over, and work up load again worse case scenario starting over is you get to shoot more. Overall good job !!

 

[Clint M]

Comparators

I use the stoney point which is now Hornady with digital calipers. You can set up a dummy round for each bullet your using written on case, assemble the comparator with correct insert loose at first (has one small set screw for bushing, and thumbscrew to mount the comparator to calipers) close caliper when assembled and tighten then zero calipers. This setup is repeatable, as well you have a dummy round to check all this takes less than 2 minutes, you use this to set up your seating die so you have a dummy round as a standard and comparator is the tool to set seating die.

Comparator headspace bushing. I use a fired case measure 5 fired cases if you can as sometimes brass spring back etc you will get small differences. Setup is the same as above after putting the comparator, and correct headspace bushing insert on caliper, zero caliper out then use your measurements from fired cases to set your full length sizing die up. I try for .003" for a hunting rifle, chamber the sized case to make sure it's easy chambering you may find that .002" is good for your rifle, but you will know with the ability to check each time you set up to size measure first few cases to check.

The above tools will allow you to achieve more repeatability, measuring points etc, using some type of method to measure case head to shoulder datum line I feel is important setting up dies, however the bullet seating depth should always be used from a reloading manual or bullet manufacture. You can adjust seating depth to increase overall length, but do not go below recommended seating depth. Write all this information down in a reloading notebook make it as detailed as possible. If you go with the Hornady comparator you can save money by purchasing the set, and print out the bushing insert list put it wherever your loading or prepping area is. I have seen a nut with different sizes drilled/reamed that works of same principle as the Hornady comparator, however I have not used it. You can always ask for opinions before you purchase said product.. I hope this helps

 

[GooseGestapo]

1. Loads too hot!
2. Excessive sizing.
3. Miss- fires due to sheared primer material in firing pin hole.

Strip,clean, inspect bolt!

bil of friend busted the bolt of a Rem788 using a starting load of H4831 with a 105gr Speer bullet, using Speer data 30yrs ago. Max load is now less than his load!

 

[notaglockfanboy]

So now I guess I don't really understand the difference between full size and only neck sizing dies.

The difference is that a FL die sizes the body, neck, and will bump the shoulder back, a neck sizing die will size the neck only and will not touch the body nor will it bump the shoulder back.

 

[aggiejet]

aggiejet it very well could have been the bullet seated deeper in the case. That's why all the loading manuals and people also say start over when changing any component such as brass case (you can get reduced capacity causing high pressure) different bullet even in same weight (bullets differ wildly in length, composition etc) powder (burn rates change) primers (primers also vary wildly strength of metal along with charge).

By using the wilson case gauge you now know how much your die is sizing the case. It's not bad, and for hunting .005" would be about right. I think your die choice (full length) and your die setup is good, no reason to change it introducing yet another possible problem. Neck dies in hunting rifles are not an option for me, the reason being you will have brass that will eventually be hard to chamber. The option is a body die to size the shoulder area back= more money, more time, accuracy ? (not an attack on neck sizer people)

It may have been a pain to ask this question when you first posted this thread, however I feel you have already learned a lot. Being able to measure, and control your sizing of case is a huge step in handloading, you should also apply this to other bottleneck cartridges. You determined the longer bullet, and how much more is in the case which reduces case capacity driving pressure up, apply this on any component change start over, and work up load again worse case scenario starting over is you get to shoot more. Overall good job !!

Clint,

I have noticed the variance in the different bullets of the same weight. Interesting. That said, I was seating the Hornady bullets exactly to the depth of the factory loads. The bullets have a cannulure (sp) so it was easy to visually to see how much to seat the bullet.

I have ordered the Hornady OAL gauge from Brownells, but the bullet comparator is on back order. My calipers are not digital. Is that a problem when using the bullet comparator? Regarding a headspace comparator: I don't know what that is. I will go research that as well.

Regarding how much I am sizing my brass: the cases I checked with the Wison gauges were after resizing. They are a little short. i.e., the head is below the "minimum" step (I am eyeballing .005) The only fired cases I Have checked is the ones in the opening post. As I recall, only a couple of those needed resizing. i.e., the case head stuck up above the "maximum" step on the case gauge.

Thanks for taking the time to form a well articulated response. And yes, this has been very educational.

 

[Poper]

Everything said here by others is spot on and not to be lightly dismissed.

One thing I did not see mentioned was your case length is critical, too. Your cases will stretch under firing and will need to be trimmed periodically. Lee makes very inexpensive trimmer setup that works very well. [BTW, I have had new, unfired brass that was too long straight out of the bag. Always check them. Take nothing for granted.]

There is no doubt your powder charge is excessively hot. As others have suggested, please, for your safety sake, (and possibly that of a bystander) read the front sections of your manuals before proceeding with more loading activities. You have been extremely lucky so far. Savage makes a strong gun, but it is not indestructible.

Great replies here. Handloading/reloading can be very rewarding, a hobby unto its own - almost to the point of obsession. So be careful.