Small pistol primers

[Zendude]

Has anyone experienced more misfires with certain small pistol primer brands? I have a revolver that misfires more frequently than some of my other ones, but not with any factory ammo. The gun probably has a softer hammer spring than others, but since it fires factory rounds with no problems, the spring is probably not out of spec. I use Winchester and CCI primers. Are some primer brands harder than others in anyone's experience ?

 

[rcmodel]

CCI is considered hardest.

Federal easiest to ignite.

Winchester is somewhere in the middle.

But, if your gun wont reliably fire CCI primers?
You have a gun problem, not a primer problem.

Misfires can also be caused by not seating the primers tight against the bottom of the primer pocket to pre-load the anvil into the primer compound.

SInce your gun works with factory loads but not with your reloads, I would look into that first.

rc

 

[lysanderxiii]

Handloaded primers?

You might be contaminating them somehow.

 

[gamestalker]

Did you try firing those rounds a second or third time? If they fired on subsequent attempts, it's more than likely a primer seating issue. As RC said, make sure the primers are completely seated to the bottom of the pocket.


Check the strain screw, make sure it is tighten down all the way.

Make sure the primers aren't getting contaminated during the reloading process, sweaty fingers, lube or other substances can deactivate them.

I've never personally ever had a reload of mine mis-fire. OTOH, the only mis-fires I've ever experienced have been with factory ammunition.

GS

 

[ColtPythonElite]

I have a number of revolvers that won't fire Tulas reliability in double action. I have had it happen in both LP and SP. They always fire the second time. Never had an issue with Tula and a 1911, though......I recently switched over to CCI. None of the aforementioned guns have trouble DA with them.

 

[greyling22]

in order of hardness: russian > cci > everybody else > federal. I have 1 gun that gives me some problems with russian (wolf/tula) but generally pops on the second strike.

 

[GLOOB]

+1 strain screw. I'd add that you could also check the hammer for lubrication/rust.
+1 Tula being hard in SPP. They don't work in my Ruger revolver.
+1 on your gun or priming process having an issue, if CCI/WIN don't work.

Start logging primer lot info with your reloads. And if you haven't already, do some research on the priming process. IMO, you want to feel the primer bottom out, and then squeeze just a bit harder.

 

[Stormin.40]

I also use CCI and Winchester SPP. All of my guns will set off both brands reliably, however, my neighbor has a Ruger Security Six that occasionally will not set off the CCI, it has never failed with Winchester. I suspect the issue is his gun but it is possible that my reloads are the issue. The Security Sixx has also never had issues with factory ammo, but I also have never had issues with my reloads with any other firearm either.

 

[LiveLife]

I have a number of revolvers that won't fire Tulas reliability in double action. I have had it happen in both LP and SP. They always fire the second time. Never had an issue with Tula and a 1911, though

Non-domestic primers like Fiocchi/Tula/Wolf primers made to metric specs have slightly larger cups and if your primer pocket is tight (once fired brass, S&B/RWS, dirty/corroded primer pocket with debri etc.), increased friction with primer pocket wall may not allow the primer cup to fully seat to set the anvil tip with the priming compound. If the primer ignites on second strike, the first strike seated the primer cup deeper and set the anvil tip and second strike ignited the priming compound.

There's been several threads discussing Tula primers having harder cups and my testing with a particular SP lot that's several years old now have harder cups than CCI SP/SR primers - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7807007#post7807007

Picture showing Tula SP primer cup with shallower indent than CCI SR primer cup using the same striker (CCI primer ignited but Tula primer did not).

You might be contaminating them somehow.

If the primers were kept in factory packaging, not likely. Priming compounds are well protected from moisture/vibration with the use of sealants and barriers which make them quite impervious even under harsh combat conditions of extreme heat/cold/moisture/shock/prolonged vibration (imagine days of off road ride in a military transport).

Here's a test where primers were soaked in many different solvents/oils/water and took 3 days of soaking to deactivate a primer - http://www.predatormastersforums.com/killprimers.shtml

Below is a comparison picture of primer cups disassembled to show sealants/barrier - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7794378#post7794378

 

[joem1945]

I try to use CCI only and have only had one FTF. Examined the primer and it lacked the anvil. That's one out of perhaps 25K primers.

 

[giggitygiggity]

Stay away from Tula. They are junk. I believe it is due to them being slightly larger in circumference and do not fully seat all the time. As such, it sometimes takes a couple of strikes for them to go off and even then, sometimes they don't go off. To give you an idea, I had about one issues every 25 rounds or so. With CCI primers, I might have one bad primer every thousand rounds.

 

[Laphroaig]

My FIL had a Colt Detective Special that would do the same thing. He could shoot factory ammo all day, but my handloads probably had a 20% FTF. CCI primers that I've used in other 38 and 357 revolvers with no problem.

He bought the gun from an ex cop who I figure lightened the spring for a lighter DA trigger.

Laphroaig

 

[Walkalong]

The number one cause of primers not firing, assuming fresh standard power springs in your mechanically correct guns, is not being seated fully. Tula/Wolf primers etc are supposedly harder to seat fully, but I have had no problem with them using a hand primer.

it fires factory rounds with no problems

Make sure you are seating the primers fully. Don't be to easy seating primers. It is very difficult to seat them so hard that they won't work, but very easy not to seat them fully.

 

[Captcurt]

Always something to learn.

I had not had a misfire after going to carbide dies in my handgun loads until I got a T/C Contender in 7mm TCU. The gun has a light hammer spring and the TCU has to be headspaced perfectly. CCI primers would seldom go bang. I went to Winchester with good results and then found some Federals. To make sure that the primers are seated fully I use a Lee hand priming tool. No more problems.

 

[GLOOB]

If the primer ignites on second strike, the first strike seated the primer cup deeper and set the anvil tip and second strike ignited the priming compound.

I have had second strike firings on commercial ammo, after cutting a couple of coils off a mainspring. But in general, I agree. If it's a bad/hard primer, it will usually not go off, no matter how many times you strike it. And if it fires on a second strike, it's usually a short-seated primer. Come to think of it, the second strike only worked when I ejected and rechambered those commercial rounds. I have NEVER had a round fire on a true second (or third, fourth, or 20th) strike, ever.

 

[Zendude]

About half of the time, the round will fire on a second strike. I am using a Lee 1000 progressive press, and it's not easy to feel exactly how well the primers are seated. Sometimes I don't seat them far enough and it binds in my revolver cylinder. But I don't want too seat the primers too deep because that could cause a light strike from the firing pin (I think ?).

 

[LiveLife]

I use Winchester and CCI primers ... half of the time, the round will fire on a second strike ... using a Lee 1000 progressive press, and it's not easy to feel exactly how well the primers are seated.

To me, Pro 1000 was made to be used with CCI/Winchester primers as they work better than non-domestic metric primers (Fiocchi/Tula/Wolf) with slightly larger primer cups (IME, Brazillian Magtech SP works best with Pro 1000).

If the primers will fire on second strike, you need to seat them fully, at least flush. Although Pro 1000 does not have primer depth adjustment, your arm is the depth gauge. Push up hard on the ram lever until primer is seated flush and give an extra "Ummph" to see if you can seat the primer slightly below flush. If you can't, use flush as your QC. If you can seat the primer slightly below flush, then use the same amount of force on subsequent primers (I aim for .004" below flush). See picture below of primers seated .004" below flush and .008" "crush depth"

My final QC for primer seating is loading finished rounds primer side up in bullet tray and running my finger tip over the primers. They should be at least flush and preferrably slightly below flush (.004"). If I feel any higher than flush primer, I will seat the primer deeper in the hand priming tool (or you can use station #2 to seat the primer deeper).

For smooth, trouble free primer attachment operation for your Pro 1000, check out the Pro 1000 support thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7877744#post7877744

Comparison picture showing different brand primers seated to desired .004" below flush. It's really hard to over seat primers as primers seated to crush depth of .008" below flush (note flattened tops of primer cups) will fire without issues and that really takes a lot of effort (our hands/arms will soon tire before we can consistently seat primers to .008" ).

 

[rcmodel]

But I don't want too seat the primers too deep

You simply can't seat then too deep.
The primer cup is the depth stop when it bottoms out in the primer pocket.

Unless you are smashing them flat, they can't be 'too deep'.

rc

 

[Jim Watson]

In reloads, Federal primers have softer cups and a more sensitive formulation of lead styphnate. They are definitely easier to set off than other brands. I have four competition revolvers with reduced mainsprings that depend on Federals. Just to play it safe, I load all revolver ammo with Federal primers, even though the ones with stock mainsprings don't require them.
One gunsmith rates a "level IV action job" for Federal primers hand seated .004" below flush. A lot of trouble, but if you want a 5 lb double action...

I think current production Winchesters, unplated and in the blue box, are the next easiest to pop. Previous plated Winchesters were tougher.

CCIs the hardest of US primers, Wolf brand harder still and more likely to be seated too high.

I have never used Remington pistol primers or imports other than Wolf to classify.

Anecdote: In the 1970s there were several of us here who campaigned tuned Pythons in PPC. One of the guys worked at a gun store and sometimes shot Speer/CCI factory loads instead of reloads with Federal primers. He had no misfires with the factory, although CCI primers were too hard for the Tedford action jobs with "raftered" mainsprings. So he asked the area Speer/CCI rep why his factory loads were better than his reload primers. The guy admitted that Speer did not make brass, they bought it and it came in primed. From Federal. This long before all the mergers that brought them together.

 

[Walkalong]

But I don't want too seat the primers too deep

It is very difficult to seat them so hard that they won't work, but very easy to not to seat them fully. Seat them harder and I bet your troubles go away. Use the old thumb across the case bottom to check that they are flush or below. below is much better.

 

[TimSr]

The gun probably has a softer hammer spring than others, but since it fires factory rounds with no problems, the spring is probably not out of spec.

Probably a primer seating issue, but your lighter spring could definately tighten the margin for error, with rounds that might otherwise fire witha standard spring. Same could be said for some primers allowing for more error and still function.

 

[Zendude]

You simply can't seat then too deep.
The primer cup is the depth stop when it bottoms out in the primer pocket.

Unless you are smashing them flat, they can't be 'too deep'.

rc

That's good to know. I'm not sure how I got the idea in my head that the primers could be seated too deep. Now that's one less thing that I need to be concerned about.
If I seat a primer too shallow, is it safe to try to seat it deeper if the cartridge has powder and ball already done? Usually I would use a hammer type bullet puller and just start over.

 

[LiveLife]

Primer takes a sharp impact force on the cup to ignite the priming compound against the anvil tip inside the cup. Slow reseating pressure on the cup with a flat rod tip won't ignite the primer BUT if you have any concerns reseating the primer on a finished round with powder/bullet, pull the bullet.

From post #17.

If I seat a primer too shallow, is it safe to try to seat it deeper if the cartridge has powder and ball already done? Usually I would use a hammer type bullet puller and just start over.

If I feel any higher than flush primer, I will seat the primer deeper in the hand priming tool (or you can use station #2 to seat the primer deeper).

 

[fatal wound]

CCI----never an issue.

 

[Walkalong]

The primer has to be seated to the bottom of the primer pocket to work correctly. This is covered in every reloading manual.

Think about it like this, say you want to hammer a piece of metal thinner. Try doing it it two ways, one by holding it up in the air, and one where it is laying on an anvil. Which one will work better?

You have to crush the primer compound between the cup and the anvil (No, not the big one in your shop, the little three legged anvil in the primer cup.)

If the primer is fully seated you do not waste any energy by the primer moving deeper in the primer pocket. All the energy goes to crushing the primer compound quickly. It has to be a sharp blow, not a cushioned one. If the primer is moving in the pocket, it is cushioning the blow. This is also one reason some folks like to clean all primer pockets.

Seat it to the bottom of the primer pocket, and seat it very firmly. Error on the side of seating them hard.