Help free victims of the BATF

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Ian

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Guys,

We know that there have been many people railroaded by the ATF for having guns or kits that they determined to be "readily convertible" to something illegal. People like Bob Stewart of Maadi-Griffin and John Glover for example. Well, I'm working on a project that could overturn literally thousands of such unjust convictions, and I need help from you folks.

You've probably head of their various ludicrious justifications, like Shoelaces being machineguns, or 8 hours of machine shop time being "readily convertible". The question is, does the BATFE have any documented procedure for determining what makes something "readily convertible" into a gun or machinegun? Every other federal agency that does testing has clearly defined procedures, which are obviously necessary to make objective conclusions. Ask the FDA for drug-testing procedures, for example, and they'll give them to you.

What we suspect, however, is that the BATFE has no such manual - they use whatever procedures strike an agent's fancy at the moment, and make their conclusions subjectively. If this is the case, then their conclusions about the convertibility of guns in thousands of cases will become tainted evidence, allowing thousands of retrials and ultimately freeing thousands of people fraudulently convicted.

How do we prove it? We need Congressmen to request a copy of the ATF procedures manual from the Congressional Research Service. The CRS of course does not have such a thing on file, and so they will request one from the ATF. When the ATF can't produce it, we have grounds to challenge ATF trial testimony. While this may sound complicated, we're already halfway there! One Congressman has already requested the manual directly from the ATF, and they are desperately trying to get him to formally remove his request...and they might succeed, if we can't bring any more pressure on them. Even just a few Congressmen joining in the request would make it neigh impossible for the ATF to squirm out of the hot seat.

Best of all, this doesn't require Congressmen to do anything so public as introduce legislation, make speeches, or even vote on anything. All they need to do is request the ATF procedures manual - a purely internal matter that won't bring them heat from the media or anti-gun constituents.

Please help out by contacting your Senators and Representatives (contact info: Senators, Reps) and asking them to request the BATF firearm examination procedures manual from the CRS. This is a chance to make a real difference, by helping real people who have been illegally imprisoned. Please ask your Congressmen to do this...and please let me know what the ATF or CRS tells them.

Thank you!
 
Call me dumb, but I'm not too much of a writer. Do you have a pre-writen request letter? You can PM it to me and I will gladly retype it into my words and send it off to my reps. I hate just sending off cookie cutter letters without rewriting them, so I alway's retype it. I live in ND so guns are VERY much a part of everyday life.

Thanks
 
That's a very clever strategy and it has a good chance of helping out some people who deserve our support. I deem people like Bob Stewart to be political prisoners or prisoners of conscience.

I would write a letter to my congressman, but in my case, it would achieve nothing. He's within the bottom five most guilty anti-gun congressmen. My congressman probably likes the idea of Jamaica-style "gun courts".
 
well, i fired off messages to my rep and my senators. here's the letter. i hope this is close to the right idea.

Most government agencies have clear, objective policies for making determinations about something's legal status. For instance, the FDA has very specific procedures for testing everything from cold medicine to the protein content of a sports bar. Currently, it is my understanding that the BATFE has no such objective means for establishing the legality of firearms and firearm accessories. If they do have such a manual, it has not been published. Therefore, I'd like to ask you to request a copy from the Congressional Research Service so that gunowners such as myself could be certain not to run into any legal problems. If such a manual does not exist, it logically follows that determinations of legality were made by individual agents according to their mood. This country does not make a habit of imprisoning people because of one individual's mood so it is likely that many falsely imprisoned, honest citizens would have their chance at an appeal were it to come to light that the BATFE has no policy, public or private to regulate their agents' determinations of legality. I'd like to be clear that I am not referring to the sections of public law which relate to firearms but to internal policies which interpret the ambiguities of the law. Thank you for taking the time to read this and I wish you well.
 
Hey, thanks to you guys who took the time to contact people.

DeseoUnTaco - You do have at least three reps in Congress, y'know...two in the Senate and at least one in the House.

Crosshair - It needn't be anything fancy or lengthy. something like this will work perfectly well:

Hello,

I am trying to obtain a copy of the BATFE's Firearms Testing Procedures
manual. Would you please contact the Congressional Research Service and
request a copy for me? If you are able to get a copy, please email to <email
adress> (if in digital format) or snail-mail to <physical address>. If you
are not able to get a copy, could you please let me know? I would appreciate
any update on your progress.

Thank you in advance,

<name>
 
Just wanted to give you guys another hearty thank-you. Please keep it up - I'm told that your letters, faxes, and emails are being noticed, and making a difference! Our first Congressman has decided to press his request, and we may be able to get the GAO (Government Accounting Office) involved as well.

If you haven't had the chance to help out by sending this request to your representatives, please do so. Every bit helps!
 
Ian, nice message, politically agnostic, just a "I'm trying to find out how my government works" request.

Requesting an example of this tactic being applied in other cases (FBI etc.?)
for research.
 
I am sort of new to this particular discussion but I have a question.

Are you trying to find loopholes around the regulations and trying to force the BATF to provide the documentation to find them? Maybe that is a mis-read of intent.
 
Are you trying to find loopholes around the regulations and trying to force the BATF to provide the documentation to find them? Maybe that is a mis-read of intent.

It's not about loopholes; it's about a federal agency who hides the standards by which it "determines" whether someone is committing a crime or not.

Wasn't it Kafka who wrote about a person who was charged with a crime but was never told what the charge was? This is similar. "We've determined you have a machinegun. No, we won't tell you how we've determined that; just trust us, you're a criminal."
 
I am just curious but shouldn't the Freedom of Information Act give us all access to this? Shouldn't we be able to write to the BATFE and request a copy of this document? Why is it so important that Congress does it?
 
A request from a Congressman has far more weight than a request from one of us lowly peons, MTMilitiaman. As for the FoIA, it's a theoretical possibility, but in practice those requests can take years to resolve. We want this to go as fast as possible.

pmcbooks,

Thank you, but I don't have a documented example on hand. I know there are plenty out there, but I don't keep track of them.
 
There are exceptions to the FoIA that allows gov't agencies to hold back some documents. I believe that some types of investigatory guidelines fall in such an exception.
 
The BATF has a blank check on legislating in the form of policy setting

What other government agency has the ability to ban the import of, production of , and selling of an item without a Constitutional ammendment(which we know is REQUIRED BY CONGRESS to "ban" an item from the people,re:p prohibition), or so much as a finding of the necessity/CONSTITUTIONALITY of such a ,"policy"? :scrutiny: :cuss:

PS. So we get some beauracrat doing the JOB of ALL 3 branches of the FederaL government, with absolutely no accountablility to the People to whom it is applied...Sounds Un-American if you ask me but, maybe I am just too stupid to get it. Or too many of the People have been,"dumbed-down", to the point where they CAN'T GET IT :barf: ...
 
Ian:
As my teen-age son would say; "Mad props."
I have absolutely no idea what that means, but it is a compliment.
I have emailed my congress-critter, a degenerate Democrat named Delahunt. I also emailed the High and Holy KerryKennedy. They are two senators from Massachusetts, widely believed to be two separate people. They are not two people, they are clones, with similar initials. One wears a neck brace, one has a stiff neck. Weird.
 
Help!

I got a reply of sorts, but could use a little guidance regarding my response...

Mr. porterdog:

I received your inquiry into obtaining a copy of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosive's Firearms Testing Procedures Manual. The ATF's Firearms Branch was unable to locate any publication by that name or anything similar. Is it possible that this is a state document?

Erin Hughes
Office of Congressman Sander Levin

What's my next move?
 
porterdog said:
I got a reply of sorts, but could use a little guidance regarding my response...
Mr. porterdog:

I received your inquiry into obtaining a copy of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosive's Firearms Testing Procedures Manual. The ATF's Firearms Branch was unable to locate any publication by that name or anything similar. Is it possible that this is a state document?

Erin Hughes
Office of Congressman Sander Levin
What's my next move?

I would like to know how to reply to that too. I actually filled out some Privacy Act Waiver form and sent it in to my Senator so that he could "make inquiries on [my] behalf". I included my phone number and everything and I won't be surprised if some secretary calls me and says the same thing and wants clarification on what I'm actually looking for. What am I actually looking for?
 
porterdog,

Do you know if your rep spoke to ATF headquaters, or a state branch office? Not a huge deal, but it would be useful to know (we would expect the national office to respond with something other than "we can't find that").

Either way, please give me another day or so. I'm waiting to hear from one of the legal guys on what the next step should be from your end. I don't think they anticipated anything so frank. :)

Thanks!
 
I emailed my congresscritter too

No reply yet. They are decidedly anti-gun so there may never be any inquiry.
 
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