BATFE Straw Sales: Outrageous

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FullMetalJckt

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The Views posted below are the views solely of the writer, and do not necessarily reflect the views of THR or its affiliates.

:fire: The Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco Firearms and Explosives (BATFE or ATF for short) thinks they are above the law. Recently, as covered by the NRA-ILA, the ATF setup straw sales to criminals in Mexico. The ATF sold, illegally, firearms to criminals and drug cartel to prove that the sales actually take place. Furthermore, the ATF wants to use this "proof" to inact legilative action against law-abiding gun owners in America.

Well, I'm T'ed off, and I want to do something about this.:fire: I realize that this is the ATF I'm talking about, and that government agencies are hard to 'touch'. However, We law-abiding citizens should not and can not afford to let the ATF get away with this.
:fire:
Another deviancy reguarding the ATF is recently the ATF has decided to post signs outside of buildings hosting gun shows saying 'the private sales of firearms within this facility is prohibited, please abide by these suggestions-ATF". Outrageous, the ATF wants law-abiding citizens to refrain from making LEGAL private guns sales (not legal in every state). The old saying comes to mind, "do as a say, not as I do" ~ Unknown.

In closing, the ATF has made ILLEGAL straw sales to criminals in Mexico. In doing this, the ATF is backing any murders committed with these illegally sold guns. As a citizen of the United States, an avid firearm rights activist, most importantly as a human being, I think legal action must be taken against the ATF's leaders: treat them as the terrorist backing, under-the-table, black market selling, disgraces for human beings they are.:fire:
 
The ATF sold...
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I thought dealers sold the guns. I have not heard anything about guns moving directly from the ATF hands into criminal hands.

Anyway, I write letters and mail them to Washington, and I do it fairly often. One thing that is ALWAYS in my letters is, 'REFORM THE ATF'. I demand that their funding be cut and their powers be limited. I suggest writing letters.
 
I thought dealers sold the guns. I have not heard anything about guns moving directly from the ATF hands into criminal hands.
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How fine a distinction do we want? My understanding is that some dealers were aware that people were trying to make straw purchases, reported it to the ATF, and the ATF instructed them to proceed with the sale.

So no, they didn't actually participate in the sale. But they encouraged the sale...
 
...dealers were aware that people were trying to make straw purchases, reported it to the ATF, and the ATF instructed them to proceed with the sale.
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That's how I understand it took place.

Back to letter writing... I assume that the majority of our elected servants don't have any knowledge of this recent issue. It is important to mention and detail it as best you can and refer to the news sources where they can check for themselves.
 
Derek is correct, The FFL dealers phoned in the background checks, and the ATF allowed firearm purchases by buyers that could not own a firearm legally. In doing this the ATF directly allowed and backs the illegal sale of firearms!!:fire:
 
Of course when they trace back to the U S the cry will be for more retrictions on the dealers and the law abiding...
 
180110gunsales.jpg
 
Must be nice. Here is an agency that can create its own work. How wonderful it must be to be able to put enough guns in the wrong hands to create a big enough work load to justify your existence.

For all intents and purposes, anything the Feral(Federal) Government does beyond the bounds of the Constitution is the same as if it were done by any foreign government, and should be treated as such and or defended against as such.


Woody

The harm comes mainly in Uncle Sam's disobedience to abide the Constitution that created him. The Constitution is Uncle Sam's god. The minuet Uncle Sam starts disobeying his god, he embraces his devil. Uncle Sam's devil has many names: Tyranny, despotism, dictatorship, oligarchy, Fascism, Marxism, national socialism(Nazism), Autocracy, ochlocracy, monarchy, and more I'm sure. B.E. Wood
 
Derek is correct, The FFL dealers phoned in the background checks, and the ATF allowed firearm purchases by buyers that could not own a firearm legally. In doing this the ATF directly allowed and backs the illegal sale of firearms!!
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I don't know the facts behind the claims that folks are making here, but allowing criminals to go through with illegal transactions then busting them happens every day at every level of law enforcement. Someone will have to explain to me how this is any different than any other situation where a cop watches a person break the law, then arrests him once the perp has done his evil deed. What exactly happened here that distinguishes it from those situations?
 
MisterMike,

The ATF is not directly watching and then arresting criminals. The criminals are being approved to buy a firearm illegally. The criminal is then allowed to walk away, with the pistol. The ATF then ATTEMPTS to find the criminal and prosecute him. The key word here is ATTEMPT.
 
As for those signs at gun shows, I would talk to whoever owns the gun show company and ask if they are aware of the signs, and that they are requesting people abide by rules which the ATF and police have no authority to demand. It may be that the gun show owners do not know about the signs, and may want to have them removed. It may be the case that the location of the gun show is publicly owned, and the city put the signs up. It may also be the case that the gun show company gave the cops permission to put the signs up, in which case I would question whether I would go to another one of their shows. The gun show proprietors that I am acquainted with are big supporters of the right to bear arms and would never allow something like this to be posted at one of their shows, if they could help it. I would also call the chief of police and complain about the signs.

I would also freely disregard the request on the sign, of course, and inform others that they are under no duty to obey the "request."
 
The ATF let the guns "walk" to see where they showed up. The idea supposedly being to get an idea on the channels and flow of illegal trafficking. Several of the guns the ATF let "walk" ended up being used in violent crime in Mexico. One was used to kill an American border patrol agent who was only allowed to be armed with a freaking bean bag gun. And the gun dealers reported the straw purchasers and did not want to let the sales to go through, and a lot of ATF agents thought the "gun walk" was a bad idea, but the bright bulbs behind the idea overrode the judgement of both ATF agents and gun dealers who were against the idea.

According to a US DOJ OIG report, the Mexican authorities were not turning over crime guns to ATF for tracing because the Mexican authorities believed ATF traces did not uncover useful information. (My suspicion is that so few of the guns actually came from the US that the Mexican authorities saw no point in tracing guns obviously stolen from military or police or smuggled from countries other than the US.) But, hey, some in ATF need to justify more power: remember, disgruntled ATF agents told CBS News that the raid in Waco was a publicity stunt gone wrong.
 
And it makes me sick, Someone in the ATF head needs to be prosecuted for the murder of that border patrol agent.:barf:
 
As I see it, we have two choices here.

1. Express our disgust and beat our chests on the internet.

2. Get active and get the word out about these incidents, and demand something be done about them.

Right now, we seem to be hung up on #1. Since it accomplishes nothing, let's put a hold on that and start kicking around ideas on how to put #2 into action.
 
Agreed. I second kingpin008's motion.

First, I propose that we write our governors, congressmen, and senators concerning the situation. Second we should all write the NRA-ILA concerning the matter.

Next, we should email and notify everyone we can including family, friends, neighbors, bosses, secretaries, and barbers...EVERYONE.

Third, If sufficient evidence can be found, then we need to take action judicially: hire a lawyer of the victim's effected by the ATF's atrocious actions and bring the ATF before a court of law.:fire:
 
2. Get active and get the word out about these incidents, and demand something be done about them.
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i have written letters to the entire OK congressional delegation on this subject. No response from any of them.
 
I don't know the facts behind the claims that folks are making here, but allowing criminals to go through with illegal transactions then busting them happens every day at every level of law enforcement. Someone will have to explain to me how this is any different than any other situation where a cop watches a person break the law, then arrests him once the perp has done his evil deed. What exactly happened here that distinguishes it from those situations?
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THANK YOU!

I get real tired of hearing over and over how ATF, FBI, local LE, Etc. are "above the law" when they take certain actions. The simple fact of the matter is 99% of these actions that are complained about are completely WITHIN the law as there are exemptions made for law enforcement so that they can do their jobs.

In order for arrests to be made and evidence gathered to have successful prosecutions LE has to conduct investigations. If a LEO is working on a drug investigation he/she will often be in possession of drugs, sell or buy drugs and sometimes encourage an informant to do the same. All these actions are "against the law" for non LE persons but are allowed so that LE can do their jobs. Sometimes they will actually not arrest drug dealers and just watch them so they can get to the BIGGER drug dealers. This is common practice and general knowledge. There is no way around this if you want laws to be enforced and live in a civilized society.

The same applies to illegal gun sales/trafficking, prostitution, selling stolen goods, and yes even speeding (god forbid a police officer speed but really how can you catch up to a speeder if you do not?).

So please if you don't like law enforcement that's fine just say that and petition the government to abolish itself so you can live in anarchy. If you don't like the way a particular investigation or operation is done that's fine too, but criticize it on it's flaws or problems. Don't constantly complain that the actions of LEOs are "above the law" just because they get to do things that you can't do. /rant over
 
So please if you don't like law enforcement that's fine just say that and petition the government to abolish itself so you can live in anarchy. If you don't like the way a particular investigation or operation is done that's fine too, but criticize it on it's flaws or problems. Don't constantly complain that the actions of LEOs are "above the law" just because they get to do things that you can't do. /rant over
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I believe the criticism is that the ATF was arguing that US weapons were being used for crimes in Mexico, but the numbers didn't support that. So, allowing hundreds of AK clones to be sold to folks who were obviously reselling them in Mexico would help the numbers.

Turns out a couple of federal LE agents were killed with the weapons in question though, so we got to hear about it. One shouldn't turn off existing protections in order to increase harm, with the goal of getting more protections put in place. That's just wrong.
 
Dbl0Kevin,
Tell that to the families of the border patrol and ATF agents that were killed using am ATF approved straw sale. Not the same as a police officer selling drugs or sex to make an arrest. So do not put them into the same category.

Furthermore, this forum has moved on to deciding on actions to carry out against this atrocity.
 
This is the "Gun Runner/Walker" scandal that we've been talking about for over a month and has even been presented on CBS news and has the attention of Congress critters. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/02/23/eveningnews/main20035609.shtml?tag=cbsnewsSectionContent.1

Since only a small percentage of guns actually are traced to US sources it is telling that BATFE carried out this "tracer" program that supplied far more guns to Mexican criminals and contributed to the death of a US Border Patrol officer. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/04/02/myth-percent-small-fraction-guns-mexico-come/#
 
Derek,

That would certainly be a valid criticism and, if true, one that I would wholeheartedly agree with. We have plenty of crime already without manufacturing or aiding and abetting to create more of it.

FullMetalJct,

I don't know about you but I am certainly not privy to the complete plans and strategy behind this operation. People die from drug overdoses every day, some of those drugs could have come from dealers that were allowed to continue operating because active investigations were underway. Not so different than this case here.

I am not saying this was a smart or worthwhile operation by the ATF. From the information that we have it seems misguided. But as I said I'm sure we don't have ALL the information. The fact that a border patrol agent is dead is tragic, however, so far this year there have been 48 LEOs murdered in the line of duty and all of them are equally as tragic. When we put a badge and/or uniform on we know we are stepping into the hot zone. The world is far from perfect and whatever actions we take can always turn out badly. I'd love for every LE operation to go down without a hitch and be perfectly executed and thought out. Sadly we are all human and sometimes we plain just screw up or things don't turn out as we wished.
 
None of this is new news. And the ATF didn't sell anything. And I'm glad someome agrees with me that unlawful purchases are frequently permitted in sting operations of all sorts and have been for generations.

But there's nothing like a big dose of righteous indignation to stir the pot.

John



Three cheers for the RAMS and the SPIDERS.
 
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