BATFE Straw Sales: Outrageous

[JohnBT]

"How fine a distinction do we want?"

Words have commonly understood meanings and need to be used that way if there is any hope of achieving reasonably clear communication. The ATF didn't sell anything.

 

[cskny]

Quote:
I don't know the facts behind the claims that folks are making here, but allowing criminals to go through with illegal transactions then busting them happens every day at every level of law enforcement. Someone will have to explain to me how this is any different than any other situation where a cop watches a person break the law, then arrests him once the perp has done his evil deed. What exactly happened here that distinguishes it from those situations?
THANK YOU!

I get real tired of hearing over and over how ATF, FBI, local LE, Etc. are "above the law" when they take certain actions. The simple fact of the matter is 99% of these actions that are complained about are completely WITHIN the law as there are exemptions made for law enforcement so that they can do their jobs.

In order for arrests to be made and evidence gathered to have successful prosecutions LE has to conduct investigations. If a LEO is working on a drug investigation he/she will often be in possession of drugs, sell or buy drugs and sometimes encourage an informant to do the same. All these actions are "against the law" for non LE persons but are allowed so that LE can do their jobs. Sometimes they will actually not arrest drug dealers and just watch them so they can get to the BIGGER drug dealers. This is common practice and general knowledge. There is no way around this if you want laws to be enforced and live in a civilized society.

The same applies to illegal gun sales/trafficking, prostitution, selling stolen goods, and yes even speeding (god forbid a police officer speed but really how can you catch up to a speeder if you do not?).

So please if you don't like law enforcement that's fine just say that and petition the government to abolish itself so you can live in anarchy. If you don't like the way a particular investigation or operation is done that's fine too, but criticize it on it's flaws or problems. Don't constantly complain that the actions of LEOs are "above the law" just because they get to do things that you can't do. /rant over

+ 3 +

Give me a break, this happens all the time. Now, because it has something to do with "guns" it's supposed to make someone outraged?

So are you same "angry" folks upset when they bust drug dealers, prostitutes, organized crime figures, embezzlers, inside traders, and the like the same way? No, of course not.

 

[kingpin008]

i have written letters to the entire OK congressional delegation on this subject. No response from any of them.

Keep writing. And start writing to the local paper and news agencies, letting them know what's going on and that your elected officials are ignoring the issue. The media loves catching politicians doing nothing, and the headline "Local politicians silent on illegal gun sales scheme" will likely light fires under a number of individual's butts.

 

[sellmarkguy]

Don't forget that when you and I break the 'law', it's a crime.
But when the Govt. does it, it's just a sting operation!

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

Give me a break, this happens all the time. Now, because it has something to do with "guns" it's supposed to make someone outraged?

Yes absolutely. Those other things listed are illegal. Guns are not (yet), but if this excrement keeps going down you can bet they'll push to make them illegal too. These are the guys in charge of enforcing existing gun laws yet they are building a case against the RKBA and costing border agents their lives in one fell swoop.

According to the OFF (Oregon Firearms Federation) the ATF and Oregon State Police are pressuring dealers in this state to make large quantity sales to very suspicious buyers.

It's spreading. We need that BATFE reform act.

 

[sellmarkguy]

Must be nice. Here is an agency that can create its own work. How wonderful it must be to be able to put enough guns in the wrong hands to create a big enough work load to justify your existence.

+1...

 

[grendlefly]

I have been following this story on several blogs, (2 of them are the ones who broke the story) since late December shortly after CBP agent Brian Terry was murdered with a gun that was "Walked" across the border by the ATF. There are new developments on an almost daily basis.
http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/a-journalist-s-guide-to-project-gunwalker
the above link is a good place to get up to speed on this whole debacle named "Project Gunwalker" by David Codrea.

 

[CoRoMo]

I get the feeling that this story isn't going anywhere. I mean, we all began talking about this a good while ago. A week or so later, I began hearing news reports or blurbs here and there in the media about it. Now... it's done (apparently).

I wrote the public servants about it back when, but I don't hear about this story anymore, other than on the gun boards of course. I have friends and family that have never heard about this story, and with the exception of my mouth, they never would. It just doesn't fit the template that the MSM needs for their edification.

Hope it regains traction though.

 

[BBQLS1]

Which state/city was the sign posted in?

 

[Bubbles]

I don't know the facts behind the claims that folks are making here, but allowing criminals to go through with illegal transactions then busting them happens every day at every level of law enforcement. Someone will have to explain to me how this is any different than any other situation where a cop watches a person break the law, then arrests him once the perp has done his evil deed. What exactly happened here that distinguishes it from those situations?
THANK YOU!

The problem is that the US authorities were watching the guns get purchased by straw buyers in the US and shipped into Mexico, ostensibly so that they could be tracked to the higher-ups in the cartels. There are two problems with this: 1) the US authorities involved never told the Mexican authorities that the guns were coming into their country and needed to be tracked, so there was no investigation on the Mexican side of the border, and 2) the guns apparently never went to higher-ups in the cartels, they went to the low-level thugs.

I get the feeling that this story isn't going anywhere. I mean, we all began talking about this a good while ago. A week or so later, I began hearing news reports or blurbs here and there in the media about it. Now... it's done (apparently).

This story is nowhere near done. The ATF has a deadline next week on 3/30 to provide the documentation demanded by Rep Issa about Gunrunner and Fast & Furious. Bear in mind a full Congressional investigation will take months, and even then it won't be the scandal that will take folks down, it will be the cover-up.

Rep Issa's demand letter to the ATF contains an excellent summary of the events to date and is well worth reading.

 

[Busyhands94]

gee, why does this not surprise me? the ATF are the real criminals here, not law abiding Americans.

 

[dogtown tom]

FullMetalJckt:...Another deviancy reguarding the ATF is recently the ATF has decided to post signs outside of buildings hosting gun shows saying 'the private sales of firearms within this facility is prohibited, please abide by these suggestions-ATF"....

Nice rant. But simply not true.
The below notice was posted by a gun show promoter in Austin, Texas NOT ATF...and it happend over a year ago. I'm no fan of ATF but making up or repeating a phoney story to fit your rant doesn't lend credence to the argument.

The gun show promoter in Austin agreed to the demands of the property manager and didn't bother telling dealers and others who had rented tables until a few days prior to the show. The promoter willingly agreed to this clause in his lease for the show. Only after he sent out notices of what the evil ATF and Austin PD had required did the poop hit the fan. TSRA investigated and discovered the show promoter didn't tell the whole truth.

TSRA article here:https://www.tsra.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=216:the-story-behind-the-gun-show-crises-in-austin&catid=55:tripp-talk&Itemid=113

 

[Davek1977]

I can't believe people are actually defending the ATF in the face of the facts at hand. While sting operations happen all the time, this one was an epic failure of epic proportions. There was NO accountability. Straw sales were made with the approval and encouragement of the ATF. Said weapons WERE NOT TRACKED or intercepted in the course of the investigation, but instead made their way to Mexico, where (according to the reports from the whistleblowers in the ATF) thousands of weapons made their way into cartel hands, and are starting to turn up at crime scenes, like that of the muder of agent Brian Terry. So....due to direct action by the ATF, cartel members now their hands on hundreds of AK's, .50 cals, and assorted other weaponry....that when seized, will conviently be traced back to the US(and thus providing more ammo for the Brady bunch, Obama, holder, and the like for their gun control agenda)), to the very shops the ATF encouraged to sell the guns, yet failed to keep track of in any sort of meaningful productive way. How this sort of thing 'happens all the time" is simply absurd. No reasonable law enforcement agency would approve of stings where large amounts of illegal goods make their way into criminal hands with absolutely no strategy for prosecuting said criminals or tracking or intercepting the weapons. That would be like a sting operation focusing on cocaine, where thousands of kilos were allowed to pass from an undercover informant to various drug dealers...and....well.....that's IT.....no meaningful followup was done. The ATF more or less handed over guns (or more accurately encouraged that they be handed over) to criminals People are DYING because the BATFE implemented a poor plan, and refused to put an end to it even when it was obvious the results they were hoping for simply weren't happening, and instead the guns were "lost" on the streets of mexico.

 

[sellmarkguy]

I can't believe people are actually defending the ATF in the face of the facts at hand.

+1 x 20!

 

[cskny]

I can't believe people are actually defending the ATF in the face of the facts at hand.

That's because many people here have conspiracy theories about what's going on in the ATF and at all government levels. They hate the ATF, and their 'opinion' on all things ATF (or Law Enforcement in general) reflect that irrational opinion.

It would be one thing to say:

-You know what, this was a bad sting operation that was poorly thought out. The results don't seem to justify the costs and consequences.

Instead, we get these irrational arguments about "breaking the law" to do sting operations, and how terrible it is when it involves guns. Even though, that's what law enforcement has done in most illegal activities FOR YEARS! Do these same people go down and scream at the police for using 'sting' illegal solicitation to bust the prostitutes? How about illegally buying drugs to bust the local drug dealer near your neighborhood? No. But the same people spread these implications of Law Enforcement being crazy and out of control if it involves guns.

Many of us don't share that opinion.

Some are not 'defending' this particular operation (which be real, we don't have all the information on), we are pointing out that the "generalities" being drawn are not appropriate and reflect poster's opinions on ATF, not reality.

That's why we apparently get more propagated "fake" stories in the thread when the letters ATF pop up.

 

[yeti]

How about illegally buying drugs to bust the local drug dealer near your neighborhood?

It might seem like a good plan if the ATF was buying the guns, kinda like it would seem like a really, poorly thought out sting operation if the local LEOs were selling drugs in the school yard in order to ferret out the local pushers.

 

[cskny]

It might seem like a good plan if the ATF was buying the guns, kinda like it would seem like a really, poorly thought out sting operation if the local LEOs were selling drugs in the school yard in order to ferret out the local pushers.

Silliness aside (those poor innocent school children), the sting scenario and which 'side' LE plays would presumably depend on what they are trying to achieve, who they are trying to find, and what they want to catch them doing. Then, the scenario needs a cost/benefit analysis.

If the benefits did not outweigh the costs in this sting, yes, they need to be accountable.

But arguing that a gun "sting" is generally ATF craziness, against the law, and maybe somehow another ATF infringement of the 2nd amendment? Well ... people are entitled to their own opinions I guess, but some of us want to be clear that those people don't speak for the entire pro-gun community.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Excuse me, but the most stinging criticism of "gunwalker" came from 16 ATF agents who thought it was a bad idea, not just from us gun nut critics of ATF. And the ATF agents complained of retribution against ATF agents by the ATF "leadership" for criticising this really bad idea.

Dealers told the ATF that suspicious characters were buying unusual amounts of ARs and AKs. ATF honchos said continue selling them, and we'll let them walk to see where they end up. The dealers complained, ATF agents complained, and were told to ****. And this "gun walker" went on for much longer than any drug sting would be reasonably allowed to go on. Hundreds of guns. Now a US Border Patrol agent is dead. This situation is outrageous to everyone who has lifted the rock and looked under it.

 

[cskny]

the most stinging criticism of "gunwalker" came from 16 ATF agents who thought it was a bad idea

So I guess not all of ATF is as criminal and incompetent as some like to post. Good to know.

 

[Davek1977]

Again, defense of this operation defies all logic if it has indeed happened as the 16 whistle blowers have stated it has. You can attempt to paint us as "crazy gun nuts" because we don't agree with how it was handled, but to blindly defend the operation or the ATF in the face of known facts could speak volumes about the person doing the defending as well. My opinions on this operation are based solely on what I know about it, not some greater government paranoia you want to paint us all as suffering from......again, if the operation worked as a typical sting operation, where CONTROLLED deliveries/sales were allowed in order to gather evidence....that would be one thing, But as i stated earlier, this seems more akin to officers simply allowing drug sales to go on, with no accountability or real plans of prosecution aside from "well, we'll see what happens, I guess". It was logistically a disaster of an idea, and anyone who gave or continues to give it a stamp of approval is refusing to acknowledge the facts of the matter

 

[The Gunman]

And I'm glad someome agrees with me that unlawful purchases are frequently permitted in sting operations of all sorts and have been for generations.-JohnBT

John, I am not meaning to single you out, you just put the issue to a short point.

Yes, law enforcement has long used controlled illegal activity to entrap criminals. I think the real problem with this particular operation is a bit different than a cop selling bags of dope to arrest an addict.

In this situation BATFE specifically told dealers to go ahead with a sale that would violate the law. Yes, this was done with the guise of following the illegal purchase and making an arrest. I think the damning issue is that they chose to do this with people who they knew in all likelihood would cross the Mexican border. At that point, the BATFE no longer has any jurisdiction to operate inside another country and can no longer control the situation.

Now, the dealers did the right thing, they recognized that something was amiss and questioned the sale and contacted the BATFE. At that point, the BATFE could have likely arrested many of the perspective buyers for attempting to acquire a firearm illegally.

Now, as for comparing a dope sale to a firearm sale, the likely outcome is far different. In the dope sale if they loose a small amount of dope the likelihood of someone getting killed is low. That is not the case with the firearm transaction. If someone were to make off with the dope and smoke it I doubt anyone would be dead in a matter of seconds. That simply is not the case with a firearm, the results are far more likely to be swift and drastic if the criminal chooses to use them. Let's face it, if you loose site of the dope and then come around a corner and see it, you aren't likely to get killed, but loose site of a gun and come around the corner and you may be staring down the barrel at your possible death.

I think the real thorn of all this is that while this was going on, political elements wanted to use the issue of US guns showing up in Mexico to create more restrictions on our freedoms. This just gives the impression, whether true or not, that the government created the problem to allow itself more power.

 

[Dbl0Kevin]

Now, as for comparing a dope sale to a firearm sale, the likely outcome is far different. In the dope sale if they loose a small amount of dope the likelihood of someone getting killed is low. That is not the case with the firearm transaction. If someone were to make off with the dope and smoke it I doubt anyone would be dead in a matter of seconds. That simply is not the case with a firearm, the results are far more likely to be swift and drastic if the criminal chooses to use them. Let's face it, if you loose site of the dope and then come around a corner and see it, you aren't likely to get killed, but loose site of a gun and come around the corner and you may be staring down the barrel at your possible death.

You do realize you just argued the case that guns are more dangerous to society than drugs right? You really sure that is the argument you wanna put out there on this one?

 

[JohnBT]

John, I am not meaning to single you out, you just put the issue to a short point.

Yes, law enforcement has long used controlled illegal activity to entrap criminals.

_________________________

Glad you agree.

I wonder who was supposed to do the follow-up on the guns once they were in Mexico. I'm sure the ATF bigwigs will hang the failure on somebody well down the pecking order.

 

[sellmarkguy]

... this operation defies all logic if it has indeed happened as the 16 whistle blowers have stated it has. You can attempt to paint us as "crazy gun nuts" because we don't agree with how it was handled, but to blindly defend the operation or the ATF in the face of known facts could speak volumes about the person doing the defending as well.

Very well put...

 

[jerkface11]

None of this is new news. And the ATF didn't sell anything. And I'm glad someome agrees with me that unlawful purchases are frequently permitted in sting operations of all sorts and have been for generations.

It wasn't a sting operation. They didn't bust the gun running ring in fact they helped them. This is like your local PD selling drugs to dealers then complaining about the drug problem.