BATFE Straw Sales: Outrageous

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cskny said:
So I guess not all of ATF is as criminal and incompetent as some like to post. Good to know.

Well, Deputy Director of ATF, Edgar Domenech, filed a whistleblower complaint against his own agency. Generally, it isn't a great sign of competence when the second most powerful manager in an agency files a whistleblower complaint stating "the Bureau of ATF has a propensity for reprisal and he “knew” such actions would result in career suicide."

That is not to say there aren't good people in the ATF. At least 25 agents publically signed this letter alleging numerous crimes by the ATF over two years ago. And ATF agents who have spoken out have faced very serious risks of reprisal in the past, so you can't downplay the bravery they are showing in helping to right this wrong.

But from the allegations in that letter (by ATF employees and agents), it looks like criminal and/or incompetent would be a fair appraisal.
 
It's unfortunate that the few decent ATF agents are run over by the agency as a whole - which seeks only to achieve its political aims, no matter how many thugs, criminals, and generally bad people are armed. They don't care if anyone dies, either, including their own; so long as they achieve their own political aims.

The only thing I know is that if I were working for the BATFE right now, I'd be desperately searching for a new job. The BATFE is the textbook definition of a "jack-booted thugs."
 
Who thinks that the only things going "fast and furious" at the ATF this week are the shredders...???

The Obama Administration is Under Mounting Pressure for its Botched Gun Trafficking Investigation
Congress and the Department of Justice appear to be headed for a showdown this week over documents detailing Operation Fast and Furious, the botched gunrunning sting set up by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives that funneled more than 1,700 smuggled weapons from Arizona to Mexico.

The Justice Department has until Wednesday to deliver to congressional investigators a stack of records and emails naming the individuals responsible for the gun trafficking operation that may have killed dozens, if not hundreds of Mexicans, and is becoming a growing embarrassment for the Obama administration.
 
"That is not to say there aren't good people in the ATF. At least 25 agents publically signed..."

I believe it was signed by 25 "senior agents and retired agents." I haven't seen a number on how many active agents signed it.
 
"It wasn't a sting operation."

You know something nobody else knows? The rest of the world is waiting for the release of the facts and you say it wasn't a sting operation. Why?
 
Wow, this is huge.

It seems we'll be getting a new AG soon, and perhaps a new BATFE head, if not the disbandment of the entire agency.

I can't believe they let so many guns fall into the wrong hands. Baffling. They likely have done more damage in this one instance than the average straw purchases will do for the next 100 years. Wow, just wow.

Assistant Attorney General Ronald Weich said in a Feb. 4 letter the operation's purpose was "to dismantle the entire trafficking organization, not merely to arrest straw purchasers."

More like keep them well armed.


"The allegation -- that ATF 'sanctioned' or otherwise knowingly allowed the sale of assault weapons to a straw purchaser who then transported them into Mexico -- is false," he wrote. "

Really what would he call it then?
 
JohnBT,

You really should do some reading on this whole scandal, as most of the story has not been posted here.

A Journalist's Guide to Gunwalker is a good place to start, as Mike Vanderboegh (http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/) and David Codrea broke this story, not CBS.

Now with regards to this operation as a sting... Look at the numbers and it just doesn't make sense. By the ATF's admission at least 1,700 guns were walked south of the border. <300 of those were recovered, most at murder scenes or the sites of shootouts with Mexican law enforcement and military. Most notably, two were recovered at the scene of the murder of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry.

Again, by the ATF's own admission, this operation has resulted in the arrest of a few dozen straw purchasers and smugglers, most of which were under surveillance while they were buying and walking the guns. No "big fish" was ever arrested, and as this whole operation is now shut down because of this controversy, no further arrests are likely.

So the ATF allowed nearly 2000 guns minimum to go into the hands of the drug cartels. The sales could have been stopped at the US gun dealers, but were not. The suspects could have been arrested before the guns crossed the border, but were not. By ATF agents admission, no attempt was made to track the guns after they crossed the border. The ATF could have accomplished the same arrests while not allowing any guns to cross the border, but they chose to let the guns walk.

So why did they let the guns walk, knowing that the only chance of recovering them would be at a crime scene?

And GO RAMS!
 
So why did they let the guns walk, knowing that the only chance of recovering them would be at a crime scene?

Ummmm...so that they could buttress Obama's bogus claim that "90% of the guns used in Mexican crime" came from the U.S. ... while ensuring that their ATF budget would be protected if not expanded?

Just a wild guess, here...
 
I believe that the whole purpose for letting the guns walk across the border was to gather overwhelming statistics that most of the gun used in crimes in Mexico originated in the U.S., thus strengthening their posture for enhanced gun control.
If the dealers were allowed to deny the sales, as per federal law, these guns would not have gone to Mexico. This would deprive the ATF of the statistical data needed to justify their existence on the scale that they now hold.
 
^ I agree. I dont think there is any other REAL reason for allowing those sales. It was a play to reinstate the AWB. I would like to think that having it exposed ends the play..... I somehow doubt it.:scrutiny:
 
How many of these shops were then identified, publicly by the washington post, as shops with a number of traces?

Sent from my HTC Liberty using Tapatalk
 
Senator Grassley is really fired up.


Grassley Concerned that ATF’S Risky Strategy of Letting Guns Walk May Have Been Used Beyond Fast and Furious


For Immediate Release
March 28, 2011

WASHINGTON – In a letter to the director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), Senator Chuck Grassley pressed for additional details about the bureau’s knowledge of the straw purchasers of the guns involved in the killing of Immigration and Customs Enforcement Agent Jaime Zapata.

Today’s letter follows a March 4 letter where Grassley cited press reports and a Justice Department press release that raised the prospect that the ATF strategy of allowing straw purchasers to continue to operate in hopes of making bigger cases may have contributed to the shooting of Zapata. The Justice Department responded to Grassley’s letter on behalf of the ATF but refused to provide any substantive information, citing an investigation by the department’s inspector general.

March 28, 2011
Via Electronic Transmission

Kenneth E. Melson
Acting Director
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives
99 New York Avenue, NE
Washington, DC 20226

Dear Acting Director Melson:

On March 4, 2011, I wrote you regarding questions surrounding the February 15 murder of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) Agent Jaime Zapata in Mexico. I have yet to receive a reply.

In my last letter, I referenced the March 1 DOJ press release regarding the Osorio brothers and their next-door neighbor Kelvin Morrison. They were arrested on charges related to trafficking firearms to a Mexican drug cartel and indicted on March 23. According to the release, all three defendants had been suspects in an ATF undercover operation in early November 2010. In that operation, the Osorio brothers and Morrison provided 40 firearms to an ATF informant. The press release indicates, “The meeting [between the informant and the suspected traffickers] was arranged related to an investigation of Los Zetas,” a Mexican drug trafficking cartel.[1]

The DOJ’s press release appears to be the first public acknowledgement that one of the firearms used in the murder of Agent Zapata had been traced back to Otilio Osorio. Specifically, the press release stated:

[A]ccording to one affidavit filed in the case, one of the three firearms used in the Feb. 15, 2011, deadly assault of ICE Special Agent Jaime Zapata that was seized by Mexican officials has been traced by ATF to Otilio Osorio. Otilio Osorio allegedly purchased that firearm on Oct. 10, 2010, in the Dallas/Fort Worth metroplex, prior to law enforcement’s awareness of the purchase. Ballistic testing conducted by Mexican authorities on this firearm indicated it was one of the three firearms used during the deadly assault on Special Agent Zapata’s vehicle.[2]

The DOJ’s press release gives the impression that law enforcement officials were unaware of Osorio’s activities in October 2010 when he allegedly purchased the weapon that was later used to kill Agent Zapata.

The press release leads the reader to believe that law enforcement had no reason to suspect Osorio was a straw purchaser until sometime between October 10 and early November, when he was the subject of the undercover operation. According to the release:

The investigation now has also revealed that on Aug. 7, 2010, a Romarm, model WASR, 7.62 caliber rifle was discovered by law enforcement officers in LaPryor, Texas, near the U.S./Mexico border. Trace results indicated that Morrison purchased this firearm on July 30, 2010, from a FFL [federal firearms licensee]. According to the affidavit, between July 10, 2010, and Nov. 4, 2010, Morrison purchased 24 firearms from FFLs.[3]

This portion of the DOJ’s press release appears designed to give the impression that the August 7 discovery by unspecified “law enforcement officers” and subsequent trace results linking the weapon to Morrison became known only after the October 10 purchase of the murder weapon.

However, I have learned that ATF agents actually observed a cache of weapons being loaded into a suspect vehicle on July 29, 2010, but did not maintain surveillance on that vehicle.[4] The very next day, Morrison purchased the firearm that was later “discovered,” in August.[5] In fact, it was actually seized along with 22 other AK-style firearms in the very suspect vehicle that ATF agents had witnessed being loaded with weapons on July 29.[6] When the vehicle was stopped en route to Eagle Pass, Texas on August 7, the weapon purchased by Morrison on July 30 was recovered, along with two weapons purchased by Ranferi Osorio.[7] All of these facts were apparently known to federal authorities contemporaneously, and yet none of them are included in the Justice Department’s craftily-worded press release.

The March 8 letter I received from Department of Justice (DOJ) Assistant Attorney General Ronald Weich is not an adequate response to my March 4 letter, which was addressed specifically to you. Therefore, please provide your direct response to the questions in my letter, along with the documents previously requested. In particular, please prioritize any documents responsive to paragraph (5), which called for all records relating to when law enforcement first became aware of the trafficking activities of Otilio and Ranferi Osorio and Kelvin Morrison. Should you have any questions regarding this letter, please contact (202) 224-5225.

Sincerely,

Chuck Grassley

[1] Press Release, Department of Justice, March 1, 2011, available at http://dallas.fbi.gov/dojpressrel/pressrel11/dl030111.htm.
[2] Id.
[3] Id. (Emphasis added.)
[4] ATF Management Log, Case 785096-10-[redacted], Case Title “[redacted] Firearm Traffickers (SWB Gunrunner).” (Attachment 1)
[5] ATF Firearms Trace Summary, Sep. 17, 2010. (Attachment 2)
[6] Supra note 4.
[7] ATF Firearms Trace Summary, Sep. 15, 2010; ATF Firearms Trace Summary, Sep. 17, 2010. (Attachment 3)
 
How many of these shops were then identified, publicly by the washington post, as shops with a number of traces?

It looks like at least 3 shops identified by the Washington Post in various pro-gun control stories as being responsible for firearms going to Mexico were making those sales at the request of the ATF - Lone Wolf in Phoenix and the two Carter's Country stores in Houston.

Kind of makes you wonder how many of the stores in the U.S. that have been named in various news stories as "major source of crime guns" were trapped in some similar deal with the same agency that regulates them and unable to talk about it.
 
According to the OFF (Oregon Firearms Federation) the ATF and Oregon State Police are pressuring dealers in this state to make large quantity sales to very suspicious buyers.

It's spreading. We need that BATFE reform act.

That is disturbing. The dealers need to sincerely tell the BATFE to take a hike and not participate any b.s. "sting" operations and look out for the well being of their business instead, as the BATFE will just throw them under the bus if anything goes wrong.
 
You know, I do NOT like many in LE....case in point- I got my armed security license reinstated on March9 ,and am just waiting for the Feds to reactivate my clearance so I can get back to work.I have that license,my individual LTC,worl as a cleared contractor.I have a letter from NH Dept. Of Safety stating the reissuance of said license,and a promise not to use a non violent , 13.5 year old misdemeanor for denial or revocation of said license...that they dp not regard me as a "prohibited person" RE the RKBA..... Bit the state trooper who coordinates FFL transactions STILL regards dealer purchase as a "separate and distinct"issue ,and will continue to block me from directly picking up my own property that I had shipped to my FFL last spring....basically telling me to stay with person to person sales...
Posting what I think of this little punk would get the mods involved, so read my mind.......
How I can be simultaneously cleared/reinstated and "partially prohibited" makes no sense.I think I will male them charge me-just so théy have to go on record with how I work as an armed guard at federal contracts,redundant clearances and am (at least partially)prohibited allegedly under federal law....
Stick someone in admonisyration,give em a little power and theu all wannabe "junior G men"....
So no....even though there are LEOs I like and respect,iI do npt have much respect,regard;or worry about their well being as a group...I regard the. As anyone else I might have to deal with-and some I might even enjoy dealing with more than others.....
 
I dont think there is any other REAL reason for allowing those sales. It was a play to reinstate the AWB. I would like to think that having it exposed ends the play..... I somehow doubt it.

Exposed is good, but innocent lives will be lost from this.
 
Another astute follower of this scandal - Michelle Malkin

Excellent job of dissecting this issue, THR folks!

Columnist Michelle Malkin, whose sister Marizela is missing and may be kidnapped/killed by underworld figures, also follows this unfolding Project Gunrunner fiasco of government misbehavior very closely.

Since the last posting here on THR, Malkin has summarized on 1 April 2011 the looming disaster of Andrew Traver, President Obama’s nominee to head ATF: http://michellemalkin.com/2011/04/01/stop-atfs-anti-gun-zealots/

Also on 1 Apr 2011 is a summary of Congressional subpoenas being ignored: http://michellemalkin.com/2011/04/01/project-gunrunner-update-issa-subpoenas-the-stonewallers/

And a pretty succinct summary with tons of links to original sources was published on 30 March 2011: http://michellemalkin.com/2011/03/30/project-gunrunner-obamas-stimulus-funded-border-nightmare/
 
After reading this thread I have to say I am sorely disappointed in the defense of the ATF in this incident. The idea that this is a "sting" is absurd, and the comparison to a an undercover officer selling drugs is as bad or worse. In all reality this mess is nothing remotely resembling either one.

First of all in most undercover operations that i have read about there are controls in place to minimize the opportunity for damage. Even in drug stings they typically track the drugs and put stops in place to keep them from getting out into an uncontrolled situation. An officer putting a significant amount of drugs onto the street with no way to control where it goes would be considered negligent or worse. Further more they try to actually track them. None of that seems to have been done here.

Second, where exactly is the information showing that the ATF is going after any of these straw purchasers?

In all reality this looks a lot like a calculated political strategy to make the numbers say what the powers that be want them to say, and nothing more.
 
The whole mess was poorly planned and executed.

The basic act of allowing the sales to proceed is perfectly acceptable if their is an ongoing investigation in place to then track the guns.

By failing to track them and allowing them to leave the US and be out of any jurisdiction BATFE might have is just stupid.

They should have been stopped at the border.

It is not BATFE's, or any US agencies, job to investigate crime in Mexico except as it relates to crime in the US.

The crime was illegally purchasing and exporting.
They should have been satisfied with that.

If the Mexican government wants to stop the guns from coming in they can go right ahead.

Maybe they could slow the drugs going out at the same time?
 
The ATF is the most out of control agency in the Federal Government. And that's saying something!!! I did some reading and research last year about some of the thing the ATF has done after someone shared a few incidents with me. I think there are very good reasons the ATF keep the identity of its agents secret.

John
 
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