Help! I want to get a rifle before potential bans go into effect and am clueless

[Matt-J2]

What rob s said. Some folks really do go overboard with a rifle. Do it smart, and you can get an AR or AK in fine working order, then slowly add gadgets later.
The only advantage to buying a stripped lower for someone like you and I who don't have ARs or parts already, and don't know exactly what we want(beyond a functioning rifle), is that it's cheaper in the immediate sense. If all I have is $140 right now, then that's what I have. Wait a bit and not a lot more could net an assembled lower w/out buttstock, add more money for the buttstock already added. Sometimes though, I have no patience, and understand when other folks feel the same way.


As to the other bit, the Del-Ton kits have a good rep. Never used one myself, but am considering getting one. To have a fully usable rifle, you'd need a kit, a stripped lower(or a lower in various stages of assembly, then subtract those parts from the kit), a rear sight of some sort(you can add a detachable carry handle to the kit, or pick a rear sight from many other places, though ordering it at the same time from Del-Ton may save you a few bucks in shipping), and at least 1 magazine.

 

[JustAnotherPlinker]

How's your physical build? I mean, if you're a light weight the ARs or AKs will be the easiest to master shooting off hand and carrying around. The MBRs (Main Battle Rifle) are usually heavy. I'm still fond of my FAL as I put more faith in a .30 cal deer cartridge over a .22 varmit cartridge to put a man down permanently. It costs more to shoot, but thats why I have a .22 LR semi-auto if I want to plink cheap.

That said, I've blasted away with ruger mini-14s, ARs, AKs and the like. I haven't seen anybody suggest an SKS yet. In a pinch these guns have more to offer for the dollar than any other weapon. And the 7.62x39mm ammo is still dirt [no pun intended] cheap.

Buying a serialized receiver of the gun you like best (if it's outside of your immediate price range) is your best bet. Surplus kits and demilled components are everywhere.

 

[H2O MAN]

rob_s


... I would STRONGLY suggest you buy an AK, and pay cash for it.

EXCELLENT ADVICE !!

I sold off all of my AR type rifles and invested in AKs & M14s

 

[mstirton]

Already saw a lot of sound advice here so I will just mention 1 thing that has become more important to me over the last 6 years. As far as basic type of rifle (always research for quality within a type and spend accordingly) start backwards when considering ownership.
1. AMMO: Will it be available? How expensive? Ballistics fit your needs?
2. Mags: same considerations as above, how reliable/sturdy in general?
3. Rifle: you narrowed it down so you no longer have a list of 20. Now it comes down to ergonomics/reliability/accuracy - everything you saw in previous posts.

I got an AR back in '02 when I started shooting. 5.56 SA or m193 could be had for under $200/case. I bought an SAR-1 to save money on ammo @ $100/case. I shot it a lot more than the AR. I found out surplus 308 wasn't too bad and had to have the FAL. Now I hardly ever shoot it, but I'm really happy to have it just in case (if I were starting now I wouldn't buy a rifle that ate $.60/round ammo). Luckily, RIGHT NOW all the mags are easy to find and relatively inexpensive, but that's kinda the point of your post. Buy quality and get the configuration you really want. I had the SAR, but always wanted the SAM7 so I ended up getting it later. I got the 20" HBAR, but then got the M4 style later. I'm fine with haviing them all but, if you're looking for that 1 rifle before a possible ban, you better make it count.
The only 2 that are currently tempting me are the ACR and SCAR (if they ever come out and I'm thinking the SCAR will be too pricey).

 

[Jordan85]

So here is what I am thinking...

I'm not sure I would want to build an AR from the ground up with my limited knowledge at this point. I'm sure I could work with a finished lower and a finished upper, but I agree with rob that I should prob stay away from the stripped lower.

For around $700 or less, these are what I am considering:
1) Fully assembled AR: http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Del-Ton_DTI-15_5.56_Carbine.html
2) Saiga build
3) Some combination of Del-ton rifle kit and completed lower
4) Romanian AK-47 variations

Will somebody sell me on why one of these is better than the rest? I like the option for add-ons on the AR, but it doesn't make since to add $400 worth of accessories (eventually) if they are being added to a junk gun foundation. On the other hand, the Saiga seems to offer a combination of the best of both worlds (in terms of AR optional add-ons w/ AK reliability), but I would like to know more about how difficult it is to convert these rifles to 'tactical' status before I jump in head-first. I am sure the Romanian AKs are solid, but I'm not sure if they offer the customizing options the Saiga does.

P.S.- I like the SKS's, but I don't think they offer the room to grow w/ that I would like in terms of add-ons, optics etc. Also, as one poster mentioned physical build, I am 6'1" and 160lbs (read skinny) so I would prob fair better shooting offhand w/ a lighter gun. How do these guns compare in terms of weight?

 

[rob_s]

You might also consider just buying a basic Saiga now, and after you learn a bit you could attempt the "conversion" to a conventional AK.

A basic Saiga can be had for under $400.

 

[Jordan85]

Rob how would you rank the complexity of:
Saiga conversion
vs.
AR build w/ completed upper and completed lower
vs.
AR build w/ completed upper and stripped lower
??

 

[Matt-J2]

An assembled upper and assembled lower for an AR go together with 2 pins. It's made to come apart that way for cleaning. With those purchase, you just slide in your charging handle, slide in the bolt carrier group, slap the upper and lower together, slide in the two pins. Ta-da, AR-15. So that's the easiest.

I dunno on the other two. I think assembling an AR lower would be easier, or maybe just less stuff to do. Plus, no need to worry about 922r compliance parts.

 

[1858remington]

I have the same fear... bought an AK-47

This election is a bit disconserting.

With the threat of possible gun bans, I went out and bought a Romanian WASR-10/63UF version of the AK-47 in 7.62X39.

Price wise the AK varients are less expensive than other assult style rifles.

Companies like "Cheaper than Dirt" and "The Sportsmans Guide" have great deals on hi capacity magazines and parts for souping up your AK.

Sure the AK may not be as long ranged or accurate as the M-16, but for what its made for "Urban Warfare" its more than accurate.

The reason the AR needs to be accurate is due to its 22cal bullet. It needs to place a shot properly to be effective.

The AK's 7.62 round has more mass, thus more knockdown power, and more damage potential.

I'd go AK, I did go AK, you cant go wrong with an AK. These things run even when dirty. The AR needs to be clean to be reliable.

Besides 7.62X39 can be had for cheap. .223 is a bit pricy.

I got my AK for $400. AR's are a BIT more.

 

[1858remington]

Here's some pictures of my WASR AK.

 

[rob_s]

Rob how would you rank the complexity of:
Saiga conversion
vs.
AR build w/ completed upper and completed lower
vs.
AR build w/ completed upper and stripped lower
??

The Saiga conversion would most definitely be the most difficult. But in the meantime you'll have a complete and functional rifle you can enjoy.

 

[benEzra]

Don't forget magazines and ammunition, as a rifle is useless without both. And consider whether you'll want an optic of some sort (optics range from $30-$40 for a workable red dot to $400 and up for high-end stuff).

Without optics, an AR is far easier to shoot accurately than an AK (although with practice, AK's can be much more accurate than they're given credit for). With optics, AK's are pretty easy to shoot well.

Here's my Romanian AK, FWIW:

Optic is a Russian Kobra (~$200 from Tantal).

If you want to see what's available in the AR-15 platform, a good place to browse is http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=213.

Here's my personal favorite:

I really like the mid-length gas system that rifle uses, and I'd pay the $40 extra for a chrome-lined barrel. Downside is, you're looking at ~$1000 out the door for that rifle and 1 magazine, compared to $500 or so for a Romanian AK, a few magazines, and some practice ammo. It's a nice gun, though.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

1) Fully assembled AR: http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/D...6_Carbine.html

That one. Put on your nikes and just do it. The ergos of choices 1 and 3 are what you will appreciate as well worth the extra $$.

 

[younganddumb]

I have a question for you jordan what is your intent with the rifle besides the ban's b/c if you want a shtf type gun nothing beats an m1a nothing at all but if you want a plinker go with an AR-15, an Ak isn't bad for a combo of both but you need to specify on what the purpose is for it

 

[Jordan85]

First off, I should rephrase. I know I said in case shtf gun, but I am really not one for the whole aliens attack, anarchy in the streets, stockpiling supplies etc scenarios. It is more that I would just like to make sure I have at least one solid assault rifle in my arsenal for personal enjoyment in the unlikely event that we lose that option within the next year. I am not worried about being able to retreat to the hills w/ no supplies and having to survive w/ my selected rifle.

I want something that is accurate, quality, reliable, and hopefully under $700 before we start talking about optics and optional additions.

I reload, so ammo price is of little concern to me (though I am guilty of still buying storebought on my lazy days)

I do not neglect my guns, so I doubt the AR vs AK reliability debate will ever apply to me

I get the impression that the basic consensus is:
AK
better weapon for close to mid-range due to increased cartridge size/stopping power and good accuracy in these ranges
less maintenance required
more recoil
heavier
questionable accuracy at 300+ feet ranges
extremely durable

AR
Limitless customizability
Better than AK in 300+ feet ranges
Less reliable in extreme conditions

Any important points I missed please let me know.

One question I have about the AK concerns accuracy. Is the AK inherently less accurate than the AR, or does a lot of this debate stem from the superior iron sights/sight radius the AR possesses? I know at extreme ranges (500+ feet) the 7.62 loses a lot of accuracy due to its slower/heavier bullet. But under these distances, is say a saiga build, going to be accurate or no. I've read that with a good optic the AK can be deadly accurate at these distances....

 

[gvnwst]

There are AK DMRs that can hit a human sized target to 400yd or so.

the .223 round is inherently more accurate then the 7.62x39, plus the fact of limited supersonic range in the x39. Pretty sure the complaints of inaccuracy in a ak is due partly to the crappy ammo used. The ar is plain just a better long range rifle than the ak.

 

[ugaarguy]

One question I have about the AK concerns accuracy. Is the AK inherently less accurate than the AR, or does a lot of this debate stem from the superior iron sights/sight radius the AR possesses? I know at extreme ranges (500+ feet) the 7.62 loses a lot of accuracy due to its slower/heavier bullet. But under these distances, is say a saiga build, going to be accurate or no. I've read that with a good optic the AK can be deadly accurate at these distances....

You've hit one of the factors of AK accuracy - sights. The other two are the barrel and the ammo. Unless you're buying a higher end AK you really don't know what you're getting quality wise with the barrel. Typical 7.62x39 ammo is made to be serviceable at low production cost.

There was a thread here a while back from a member who put a 7.62x39 chambered .308 bore bbl (Shilen bbl I believe) on his Savage. Most 7.62x39 reloading dies sold in the US include both the .312 and .308 diameter expander balls. Using the .308 expander ball and quality .308 bullets the groups were impressive. H20Man has posted some pretty impressive targets from his tricked out AK's too.

The Del-Ton complete rifle at AIM that's already been linked is a very good price for an entry level complete AR. I've been running a 20" bbl. Olympic Plinker (newer forged receiver model), that came to me without Bolt Carrier Group, with an LMT BCG. I've gotten excellent performance from this setup. If you go with an AR the Delton with an upgraded BCG down the road would be an excellent way to go - see rob_s post "The Chart" over on m4carbine.net for great info on the importance of the BCG.

Take a look at the AR threads here and H20Man's AK posts here to get some more info. Based on what you want to do I think an AR or AK would suit your needs very well. With the AK you'll spend a little more money to add rails and customize the buttstock. With the AR you'll spend a little more up front, but already have a railed receiver and collapsible stock; plus you wont have to spend as much for an AR fore end rail as you would on the AK. The new wave of 69 to 75 grain bullet weight factory .223/5.56 ammo really closes the gap with 7.62x39 in terms of close range terminal ballistics. The 75 grain OTM Prvi Partisan (also sold under the Wolf Gold and Hot Shot brands) has done well in my 1:9 twist Oly upper at short ranges (haven't tested it at longer ranges yet). It also shoots just as well at 200 yards as the Hornady 75 grain OTM out of a co-worker's 1:9 twist bbl. Remington 700 SPS Tactical. At half the price of the Hornady loading the Prvi 75 grain is a good buy on nicer factory .223 ammo.

All that to say that when you add accessories the price of an AK vs. AR the price gap gets pretty narrow. Unless ammo importation is cut off 7.62x39 will likely always hold a loaded ammo price advantage. I think it really comes down to whether you like AR-15s or AK-47s/74s better. Both have been around forever and well proven so you can't go wrong with either.

 

[Jordan85]

The Del-Ton complete rifle at AIM that's already been linked is a very good price for an entry level complete AR

I like the price, but is it a good deal?? Is this a solid firearm I am going to get tens of thousands of problem free rounds of performance?? Or would I be getting a more solid gun to go for one of the converted Saigas? In other words, which is more gun for the money??

thanks for all the help everyone. keep'em coming!!

 

[gvnwst]

The ar may be the better choice, as the lower is the regestered part, the upper isn't. that means that, unless they get banned too, the uppers will always be available. as long as you have a lower, you are good to go.

I guess it is possible for obama to try (or succeed) to ban uppers too, but i hope not.

 

[cliffy]

Mini-14 Prowess

The Mini is a third world power standard for controlling unarmed Peasants. Relatively cheap, extremely reliable, reasonably accurate: perfection for crowd control. 5.56mm is exceptable for most SITUATIONS, but now comes the 6.8 SPC. Far more potent and accurate than an AK-47 to date. Where I a small country dictator, I'd splurge some peasant dollars on the new 6.8mm firearms. If I had some Kugerands or Diamonds, I'd re-arm my soldiers. I'm not as stupid as I look. cliffy

 

[Jordan85]

The ar may be the better choice, as the lower is the regestered part, the upper isn't. that means that, unless they get banned too, the uppers will always be available. as long as you have a lower, you are good to go.

I guess it is possible for obama to try (or succeed) to ban uppers too, but i hope not.

I am not interested in the speculation at this point. (Well thats a lie because I opened this thread on speculation). But I won't be picking up a lower and hoping uppers are around when the time comes. Whichever route I decide, it will be a completely assembled rifle before elections.

Still might pick up an extra lower just for good measure though....

 

[gvnwst]

what i was meaning is that you always (after possible ban) buy MORE uppers for the ar, changign calibers at a whim. with the ak, you can't do that.

 

[gvnwst]

what i was meaning is that you always (after possible ban) buy MORE uppers for the ar, changing calibers at a whim. with the ak, you can't do that.

 

[gvnwst]

opps, double post. How do you fix this anyhow?

 

[Jordan85]

Also, is there any reason one (or both) of these guns could not be used to compete in 3 gun if I ever decide to?