Help me choose between a Savage or Remington

[Zullo74]

"concentricity, tight specs, quick lock-time, tubular receiver. Ease of customization and 50 years of collective experience in turning them into some of the most accurate rifles n existence doesn't hurt either."

All the above applies equally to Savage except the 50 years of collective experience.......but that is in works!

 

[Avenger29]

Well, I am not going with the Remington. Their company politics irk me i.e.- the J-locks. I also cannot forgive them for building a POS rifle such as the 710. If it was not for the internet, I would never have found out how bad it was and I might have purchased one by mistake.

And I thought that the finish on the Sav. 111F that I looked at was pretty good- enough to give Rem. a run for their money. The way I see it, Savage offers more for less money, while Rem. offers less for more money. Thanks for helping me decide. Although I may purchase a 700 in the future, it will be a Savage now. I am going to go see if I can order it and have it in by Saturday- we have a tax-free holiday on just about anything on Friday and Saturday. Should save me about $80 or so...

 

[Ala Dan]

I'm a Remington long gun person at heart, but even I will tell you that
Savage builds a very solid rifle with an Accu-Trigger feature that is
out of this world~!

 

[cmb3366]

The savage 110 was introduced in 1958, the remington 700 in 1962, (722 in 1948). At the same time the Remington action was completly dominating the sport of BR, the savage action was available. If the savage offers a competative edge, why wasent it the dominant action? History bears out the fact that in accuracy intensive applications, the 700 won out over the 110, everytime.

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

Because of this thread, I'm going to have to go out and get that 10FP.

<----soon to be Savage owner.

 

[steelhead]

Ford, Chevy, and Chrysler

That is pretty easy. There were a lot more Remingtons made and available to tweak. I'm also pretty sure that Remington was/is a larger company and has a lot more dollars available to advertise and also sponsor comp shooters.

Here, in the PNW, a boat manufacturer went and sold, at a substantial discount(read loss leader), a bunch of their boats to the local guides. Now everyone sees guides running up and down the river with one particular boat. The sheeple think that it must be the best boat around because the pro's are using them. In fact, they are pretty good boats but they are no better than a lot of other brands and actually worse than some. But because of good marketing, and presence, they have developed a strong following.

I think the same is true of Winchester and Remington when compared to Savage.

 

[Avenger29]

Can you pick me up one while you are out, Don't Tread on Me?

 

[cmb3366]

If Advertising was the reason Remington dominated the sport, why did people drop them like they were hot when small maker custom actions started winning matches? In br theres allways guys experimenting with different ways to gain a competative edge, A guy who wins with different equipment quickly gains followers. All it would have took was 1 sole savage shooter beating up on rems to convert the masses. Advertising had nothing to do with it, The fact is, the 700 was popular because rifles built on it won matches and set records. The minute something better came along, people switched.

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

Can you pick me up one while you are out, Don't Tread on Me?

Sorry, straw purchases are illegal.

 

[Davo]

I just took my new 10fp w/hs presicion stock out for the first time on friday, and I got a 7/8 inch group with cheapie federal hunting ammo. Most 5 shot groups were 1MOA, with a couple at 1.5 moa.
Supposedly it takes a few rounds before the barrel settles in but im pleased already.
BTW...I think the reason the 700 is customized more is that its very easy to work on, though the savage is simple with a tubular reciever also.
However for a budget minded shooter, there is no comparison the savage is the way to go.
Now I want a lightweight 110, and one in .223 also.

 

[Sniper4Life]

This thread inspired me, I am trading my old (pre accu-trigger) 12fv for a new one with accutrigger, also I am trading a mosin nagant for a scope. I am thinking of buying a chocate sniper stock for it, or should i spend it on ammo

 

[Ash]

cmb3366, your logic is flawed and your argument weak. The Remington is a fine rifle, and certainly has much going for it. But you cannot demonstrate that a Remington 700 will by default be more accurate. I can show you the Gun Tests evaluation that showed the Savage as being more accurate in their tests, but that is not a scientific review. There is nothing in the Remington design that makes it inherently more accurate. Nothing at all. Indeed, the actions are more similar than they are different. So, you cannot prove your point that the best Remington will always be more accurate than the best Savage. And, the Remingtons of 40 years ago are not in any way guaranteed to be the Remington of today. Shall I show you a Redfield or Leatherfield scope?

Your point that the best Remington 700 is by default more accurate than the best Savage 110 cannot be supported.

Ash

 

[MCgunner]

All I can say about inherent accuracy is I've only been able to find a couple of bullets the Savage likes. It shoots MOA with Sierra 150 game kings and Nosler partitions. As those are both good game bullets, I'm satisfied. With other bullets, that gun's "groups" sometimes approach a "pattern" more than a group. It's odd, but it just is bullet picky. My Remingtons are much easier to satisfy and I don't know that there is a load I've ever fired in either of 'em that wouldn't go at LEAST 2 MOA. That's a BAD load for the Remmies, but approaching decent for the Savage, better than the five or six MOA some bullets deliver. Either that gun is quite accurate with a load or it sux. Don't seem to be anything in between. I also had to free float it to get it down to 1 MOA. The Remingtons, other than a few minutes to tune the triggers, I've done nothing and that old 722 is a 3/4 MOA shooter with its best load using a 100 grain .257" Sierra game king. 1 MOA is easy to get.

I cannot call the Savage poor because, I mean, I have two good loads that shoot 1 MOA. But, it was a lot tougher to load for it than my Remingtons and it did require free floating the barrel. I haven't had to bed the action, though.

Seems to be a lot of Savage fanatics on this board. They're good rifles for the money, but there are better rifles. The BDLs are just drop dead gorgeous by comparison and then there's the Browning A bolts if you wanna up grade from there. I have a friend that has 4 Weatherby Mk 5s, beautiful guns in gawd awful calibers. He doesn't hand load, either. Another ol' boy I know has a Weatherby and two Sakos all topped with Schmidt and Bender scopes. He did a little better with his retirement than I did. I beat him at a local club shoot once in the bench rest 100 yard competition with my old 722 and a bushnell scope. ROFLMAO! He was so POed, he said nothing, just packed up and left before the bar-be-que was done. His loss, the BBQ was good. It wasn't a formal bench rest match, just a fun day for the club, but ol' Henry takes his shooting real serious, LOL! I fired one of his Weatherbys in 270 Weatherby mag, though, and all I can say is WOW, especially to that Schmidt and Bender scope. My GAWD, so this is how the other half lives? Kinda made me ashamed of the old Remmie, but not really the gun, that crappy Bushnell scope. :banghead:

 

[steelhead]

This thread inspired me, I am trading my old (pre accu-trigger) 12fv for a new one with accutrigger, also I am trading a mosin nagant for a scope. I am thinking of buying a chocate sniper stock for it, or should i spend it on ammo

I wouldn't trade in the 12FV for a new model with the A-trigger. The A-trigger is probably one of the best "stock" triggers offered. However, you can get an aftermarket that is as good or better in the $65-$100 range. See how it performs with the new trigger - then decide if you need to upgrade your scope, barrel or stock.

 

[Ash]

Not a Savage fanatic, but you imply that all Savage rifles are so finicky. All rifles can have issues with rounds they like. Have you tried adjusting the barrel to change load selection? I had a .308 Savage that digested everything well, including PMP ammo from South Africa which is pretty cheap.

And, if you want beauty, I'd love to show you my Savage 111c.

Of course, I would also like to show you my Western Field 730 in 7mm Rem Mag.

Ash

 

[cmb3366]

Ash, I'm not comparing factory rifles, factory tubes, or factory configurations. Gun Tests may well be right as far as factory guns are concerned, I could care less.

What I am talking about is the action potential, when completly done over by an accuracy smith. For the better part of 30 years the Remington action won 99% of the records, and won 99% of the matches. Over the years in BR there was a steady progression of popular actions, starting with the mauser derivatives, moving into the rem 722, then the 700, then the xp-100/40x, and finally moving into the custom actions. If the Savage action was just as inherently accurate, why was it never used? If a Savage could have beat up on a remington, or even matched it, shooters would have been using it. They werent. You cannot change history to favor the flavor of the month.

 

[dfaugh]

Well, FWIW, my next purchase (after LOTS of research) will be the Savage. Both good guns, but I can get better deals (and the Accu-trigger) on the Savage. Plus barrel/caliber changes are a snap, w/ minimal tools.

 

[Ash]

You still miss the point. There is nothing in the Remington design that is inherently more accurate. Indeed, both the Savage and the Remington are push feed, tubular chrome-moly steel recievers with seperate recoil lug mated between the barrel and reciever and twin, foreward-locking lugs on the bolt. The largest differences between the two are the method of headspacing, superior and more modern on the Savage, bolt design, with the Remington being fewer parts, the trigger design, and location of safety. Nothing in there makes the Remington a design with greater potential for accuracy.

If you want to base on preferences, for decades, the preferred method of firing a handgun was one arm, extended, with weak arm folded behind the back. Are you going to argue that said method was the best and most accurate solely because everyone was doing it that way?

Ash

 

[Zullo74]

cmb3366 wrote...."If the Savage action was just as inherently accurate, why was it never used? If a Savage could have beat up on a Remington, or even matched it, shooters would have been using it."

I'll tell you why. Snobbery and monkey see monkey do mentality. The most snobbish shooters I've ever met were BR shooters (or possibly trap shooters).

 

[MCgunner]

I really don't think snobbery has anything to do with competition. I know in motorcycle racing, you ride what's fast, you don't get stuck on a brand unless you want to lose a lot. Same with any type of competition.

It might well have to do with availability of actions, though. Remington cranks 'em out and makes 'em available in parts. Not sure about Savage. But, competition doesn't really apply to me, I'm a hunter. Either rifle is plenty accurate for what I want to do with it. I just like the lines of the Remington and the details like the super slick and tight bolt throw. My older Savage's finish is less than stellar, too. Good to hear they're making a higher grade with a better bluing now. It sounds like Savage has gone through the gun and revamped everything once they showed some profits and got back on their feet. I got mine just after their bankruptcy and they were struggling to get a product on the market to make some profits. They're well established in the rifle market now and the improvements seem to show it.

There's nothing wrong with the old trigger on my rifle, pre-accutrigger. It's very easy to set. It won't go below 3 lbs, but that's where I like it. I want some feel in the trigger even while wearing gloves. Much lighter and it'd not be suitable for hunting IMHO. I ain't a bench rest shooter or wannabe sniper, I just shoot four legged antlered rats down here in Texas. I set it very crisp, absolutely no creep. It has that glass breaking feel. That's more important than weight, anyway.

But, yeah, if you want a better trigger, don't go off the deep end and trade the gun. Go to http://www.midwayusa.com and find an aftermarket trigger to install. I really don't think that's worth it to me, but if you do a lot of bench rest shooting, that will do the trick.

Check out this page.... http://www.midwayusa.com/ebrowse.ex...ategorystring=10636***10560***9146***11790***

 

[cmb3366]

You know what ash, I'm sure you are right. Hundreds of competative shooters, and accuracy smiths were all barking up the wrong tree. If only they had not been so snobbish, they would have gone with the savage, Afterall, everyone knows that barrel nuts and floating bolt heads are the key ingrediant to an accurate custom rifle, built from the ground up to shoot bugholes. Geo Fulmer, Seely Masker, Harold Broughton, Fred Sinclair, Dale Hucherson and a long list of others were all ignorant ofwhat it took to build accurate rifles. If only they had used savages...

 

[Avenger29]

I'm not comparing factory rifles, factory tubes, or factory configurations. Gun Tests may well be right as far as factory guns are concerned, I could care less.

But I am. I need a rifle that shoots great out of the box. Later, I will be able to afford improvements. One day, if firearms aren't completely outlawed, I might be able to get one of those custom rifles.

Afterall, everyone knows that barrel nuts and floating bolt heads are the key ingrediant to an accurate custom rifle, built from the ground up to shoot bugholes

Maybe not on a custom rifle, where the builder will have all of the equipment to easily barrel and set headspace on a rifle, and enough money to do it all with. I am just trying to get a good rifle for a good price so that I can learn and have fun with. This setup will allow me to easily change calibers or tune the rifle with the tools that I have at home.

 

[Zullo74]

Avenger29,

You have the right idea. The Savage will suit you now, and you will be able to easily configure it the way you want later on. They are sort of like the VW Beetles of rifles. When I wanted to buy a reasonably priced palma rifle, I turned to Larry Racine to build me one of his Savage custom rifles. I change barrels (and calibers) to suit the match. It takes about 15 minutes to change and headspace the barrel and change the bolt head. More and more barrel makers are offering pre-fit barrels for Savage actions. There are several after market triggers available and Jewel is rumored to be coming out with one also. If there is one short coming to the Savage for the custom rifle builder it is that actions by themselves are not available from the company. A lot of guys will purchase the Stevens 200 rifle to acquire a donor action and part out the rest, and recoup some of their cost, A Stevens 200 rifle is the same action as the Savage 110/10 without the Accu-trigger. The complete rifle costs less than a Remington action at Brownells!

 

[MCgunner]

As good as out of the box rifles are, even the cheap ones like the basic 110, I don't know that there's a bad choice out of the box. Well, I guess the 710 sounds like a POS. No personal experience with the 710 and don't plan on any. But, I don't think there's a bad choice between Savage and Remington. I have my preference, but hey, everyone does. It ain't like a Savage can't do the job and my preferences are more aesthetic than functional.

For the average shooter or hunter, I don't see the need in more than a 110 or a 700 out of the box. I don't know how all those custom and semi-custom rifle makers stay alive. I guess it's gun fanatics just wanting one. Kinda like I never NEEDED a Colt Python, but it would be neat to own one. Only the bench rest shooter really needs a custom and how big is THAT market?

At least if you're weighing getting a Savage or a Remington (other than a 710), there's no way you're going to get burned IMHO. Both rifles are great shooters. I don't understand why someone would rave about Remington and put the Savage down or rave about the Savage and put the Remington down. But, then, I've never been brand loyal in anything. I have owned Fords, Chevys, Toyotas, Oldsmobiles, Suzukis, Hondas, Yamahas, a Kawasaki, a BSA, Mercury, Evinrude, Johnson.........

 

[YodaVader]

Both rifles are great shooters. I don't understand why someone would rave about Remington and put the Savage down or rave about the Savage and put the Remington down.

I have been wondering the same thing after reading this thread! I own an example of both and each rifle brings a smile to face during my range session. The mods done to each rifle have been the same - trigger replacements. The Savage laminated stock might be bedded later. Both are fantastic rifles!

I don't know how all those custom and semi-custom rifle makers stay alive. I guess it's gun fanatics just wanting one. Only the bench rest shooter really needs a custom and how big is THAT market?

There are plenty of varminters out there who are accuracy obsessed as well. And yes , the fanatics , I'll admit to falling into that crowd! The thought of an easily installed Pac-Nor or Lothar Walther barrel for the Savage is very appealing!