Help w/ Gun Decision...Sig or HK...9mm or .40 cal.

[bravocharlie]

This forum is a great wealth of information. Thanks to KHornet for recommending it.

First, I'm a newbie to the forum and a research freak. I've read the first ten pages of this forum for all the applicable threads on gun selection and caliber preference. Opinions obviously vary somewhat, but for the most part I've concluded that most appear to be Sig fans. I've also read the manufacturer's websites. Frankly, neither were that helpful and I need some help to narrow down my choices.

I'd like to purchase either a 9mm or .40 caliber pistol. I've researched both the Sig and HK options. Thus far, I've looked at the HK P2000 9mm and the Sig Pro SP2009. Both fit well in my hand but I haven't shot either. The trigger on the HK was substantially lighter than the Sig.

I will be carrying the gun inside my waist belt frequently so a rugged finish and not large (not necessarily compact) size would be useful. Cost is not an issue; nor is the cost of ammo. Looks? Well, I guess they're somewhat important but not critical. Weight? I do not want a heavy gun. Caliber? I'm open to suggestions and recommendations. I'm leaning toward 9mm for size and weight purposes but am not convinced yet. Quality? Top notch and 110% reliable.

Specific model recommendations would be helpful. Thanks in advance for your help.

 

[jeff-10]

You didn't really say your experience level with centerfire handguns, but I am going to assume your some what new to them. If that is the case and you expect to be carrying this pistol I would suggest a Sig Sauer p229 in 9mm, it is a compact enough to conceal, yet big enough to take to the range for a day of enjoyment. The reason I recommend the 9mm is its easier for people to shoot with, generally speaking, and it is a lot cheaper than 40 S&W to shoot.

Of course we all know what opinions are like and that every one has one I am sure you will get a lot of different answers to this one.

 

[wardog]

I'd also recommend the 9mm. Less than $5 a box from Natchez. Buy lots, practice lots.

Either Sig or HK will serve you well. Pick them up and see how they feel in your hand. Shoot both if possible.

Edit to add, Oh yeah, and welcome to the forum!

 

[BamBam-31]

Welcome to the boards, BC.

As for your question, it seems like you're looking mainly for a CCW piece. Will this be your first gun? Will it be your only gun? If the answer to both questions is yes, then I'd suggest a compact-sized 9mm handgun. Compact for CCW, 9mm because .40 is notorious for getting new shooters to flinch.

There are a lot of good compact-sized 9mm guns. Glock 19, Sig 228, CZ P-01/PCR, etc. If you're looking for something slimmer (single stack), Kahr K9, Sig 225, and HK P7M8 ($$$) are good guns.

There are lots more. Rather than getting into which brand is best, I think it's more important that you handle (and shoot, if possible) as many different models as you can. Then pick the one that best fits your hands. If it's comfortable in your hands, and it points well for you, you're probably going to shoot it better than the others.

 

[WhoKnowsWho]

You might want to wait on the Sig Pro too. They are updating the rails on the model so that it will have the "standard" rails instead of the Sig Pro rails which I have only seen one light that would fit on it.

You really need to go find the guns and hold them and point them too. You may find one fits a lot better than the other. If the gun shops don't have them, I usually have good luck seeing a wide variety of pieces at the gun shows.

 

[Ala Dan]

Welcome Aboard bravocharlie-

I would also recommend a Sig-Sauer firearm in 9m/m caliber.
Instead of the 9m/m in the top heavy SIG P229; look for the
same caliber in the P228. Same basic gun and design, but
you will find that the P228 balances much better. This is due
to the fact that the P229's slide is milled from a solid bar of
stainless stock; where as the P228's is of the stamped sheet
metal variety, making the weapon balance perfectly.

And, as I've said before 9m/m ammo is available virtually world
wide; even in some third world countries. Hope this helps some?
Please let us know what you decide?

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

 

[tlhelmer]

Sig for DA/SA Glock for the same trigger pull everytime.

Both are great guns. I never liked the H&K DA pull, and I dont believe you should have to send a 600.00 gun back for a 100.00 trigger job to make it acceptable.

 

[Khornet]

Bravocharlie,

Manchester gun show this weekend.

 

[SAG0282]

Ala Dan makes a good point.....if it's a 9mm you're after, the P228 feels better then the P229 based on the differences he noted. As another member mentioned, definitely take a look at the SIG Pro....these are very underrated, EXCELLENT weapons that are every bit as "SIG" as their classic counterparts.

The HK is also an excellent weapon, and I really enjoy mine. That being said, I'm first and foremost a SIG man.

 

[TK73]

Allright, maybe my post is of no value, but...

...do you already own any handguns, bravocharlie? If the answer is "yes", forget about my personal advise that follows.

I still think, the most appropriate centerfire sidearm for a novice shooter is still a good, proven wheelgun on the order of a Smith K & L frame or Rugers GP 100-series in cal. .38/.357. An accurate wheelgun can be had for less money and you'd have ammunition in different power levels at your disposal (like .38 Spl. Wadcutter, .38 LSWCHP self defense ammo or hot .357 Mag. SJHP ammo or whatever). I am not terribly old of age, but I remember the time when virtually all handgunners started shooting with revolvers. After they've mastered them, most stepped up to semi-autos, but still enjoyed their revolvers.

If you're already experienced and/or absolutely want an autoloader, I'd recommend to go with the much cheaper (but still effective) 9 mm Luger. Honestly, it's rather difficult to give you an advise what pistol model to purchase preferably. From your description I'd rate the Glock 19/17 as one of the most appealing. The Glock is lightweight, its Tenifer finish is really tough and can withstand a lot of abuse. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder...

Oh, by the way, welcome to the THR board. I am happy you're here.

 

[bravocharlie]

Follow up answers thus far & additional thoughts

Thanks to everone who posted thus far. I do have some hand gun experience albeit in smaller caliber models.

Based on recommendations from some friends including my quality loafin' buddy KHornet, I'm leaning toward the .40 caliber after further consideration.

When I look at the Sig models discussed in this thread and my own research, I keep coming back to the HK P2000 http://www.hk-usa.com/handguns/p2000.html or the P2000SK http://www.hk-usa.com/handguns/p2000sub.html because of their width, overall size and weight compared to the comparable Sig models.

As I said earlier, cost is not an issue nor is the cost ammo. Will this be my only handgun? Probably not, but after being away from guns for a number of years, it will be my first larger caliber gun.

Again, thanks in advance for the help.

 

[Khornet]

To be fair

I told BC that 9mm was an effeminate round, for those afraid of things that go bang. But I did follow up with the qualifiaction that it's just my attitude, not a reasoned judgement.

There can be no question that 9mm/.40/.45 are all good defense rounds, and I honestly wouldn't feel under-gunned with any of 'em.

Another thought: will Mrs. Bravocharlie ever need to use the gun? She may like 9mm better, and control it better. Then again, she like draft horses, not ponies.

 

[bravocharlie]

Another thought: will Mrs. Bravocharlie ever need to use the gun? She may like 9mm better, and control it better. Then again, she like draft horses, not ponies.

Mrs. Bravocharlie will not be using the gun. That isn't to say she wouldn't ever need it though, I just doubt she'd use it.

 

[Berg01]

This is strictly my own opinion, yours may differ, and if its your gun, your opinion counts more than mine. I like the the HK P2000, but for a first gun, I'd rather have it in 9mm, and for a follow-up gun, I'd rather have a .45 ACP caliber gun than a .40.

 

[waktasz]

Before I bought my SIG I shot a SIG229 in 357SIG and a HK USP in .40 and teh SIG was infinitely better IMO. Not sure how the p2000 is set up but the USP mag release is in the wrong spot for me, has a heavier and gritty DA pull and is harder on the hands to shoot.

Also, with a $5 spring swap the SIG can be made to have an even sweeter trigger pull with not much other modification. A little polishing and it gets even better.

 

[BerettaNut92]

I've handled neither but I'd go with the P2000 solely based on there being a subcompact model that takes the same magazines.

Backup gun, yo!

 

[MrPink]

Well in trying to decide "which gun?" nothing beats handling the real thing and shooting a buddy's or rental is even better. Comparing printed stats amd measurements is NOT like actually handling the real thing. OK, so the HK 2000 may be a smidge smaller than a SIG - but does it really matter? What about grip "feel" - how does it feel in the hand, both the grip and the weight/balance of the gun.

For instance - and I'm not dissing on HK, I love my P7s - I've owned both the full size and compact USP 45. The coarse checkering was something I did not like and the full size grip was big for my hand. The guns also felt top heavy to me and had a highish bore axis.

Glocks have never felt good in my hand and don't point naturally. And I can't get over the feel of that two piece trigger. And that take down clip is a real PITA for me to grab. But they do have a low bore axis.

I do find the SIG 228 & 229 have probably the best feeling grip next to a Browning HP.

Some here are saying start with a 9mm, but I think a 40 is all that difficult to shoot, especially with 135 grain loads. And you have the added benefit of dropping in a 357 SIG barrel if you want.

FWIW, here's my suggestions to look at:

9mm:
- HK P7PSP (a great, flat carry gun but will have to by it used)
- SIG 228 (a marginally lighter slide than the 229 makes it feel a bit better balanced)

40/357:
- SIG 229

45
- SIG 220
- 1911 commander-size

If the 228/229 is a tad big for you consider a 239 in either 9, 40 or 357. smaller and more compact, it just doesn't feel as good in the hand.

Also consider a revolver. S&W makes many a fine gun. I regularly carry a 340PD because it is soooo light and small and convenient. The 386PD and PC 66 F-comp are also great carry guns.

 

[bravocharlie]

Another Update...

Just got back from another local gun shop and checked out the H&K P7M8 http://www.hk-usa.com/le/p7m8.html Very impressive design and size.

For you H&K guys out there, what do you think? Since it will be a concealed carry weapon mostly, what other H&K's would you suggest looking at in addition to the P7M8?

 

[MrPink]

The P7 is the best HK out there.

Its virtues are many and have been documented both here and at the Cult of the P7 at parkcitiestactial.com. FAQ link here:

http://www.parkcitiestactical.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=31;t=000021

Also check out the cite for the other HK pistol forums there.

As I said earlier, I like the P7PSP the best. The M8 is very fast with the first version of the mag release wings ala USP. But the PSP's flush heel mag release is also very fast: hit it and the mag flies out, no slow strip-out-the-mag kind of change. Without the M8's wings, the gun is very flat and snag free. Downside with the PSP is they don't make them anymore. Goodnews is with the Cult, PSPs in great condtion can be found.

I carried the P7PSP for years. Only changed up to an S&W340PD and I got old and lazy.

 

[BerettaNut92]

The P7M8 is a nice piece but I get the feeling the original poster is looking for something more conventional

 

[Morgan]

For general and defensive use I'd go with the full size HK, in 9mm.

If you ever plan on competing IPSC, go with the .40.

If you want cocked and locked, the HK is the only choice.

Have you seen Collateral yet? It gave me a burning desire to pull my old USP9 (replaced by a USP45) from the safe and caress it, shoot it, and clean it.

You really should handle and shoot each before buying. I'll meet anyone at my local range and let them try anything I own - I'm sure someone here lives near you and has HK's, and another SIGs.

 

[phantomak47]

Get the sig 229, one of my friends has a usp compact, and it just doesnt compare to a sig. For the amount of money you are willing to spend, you are better off getting a non-plastic framed gun. Compare the sig to the hk and you will get the sig.

 

[10-Ring]

Go w/ 9mm in whichever platform you decide because you'll be able to shoot it more & get better w/ it faster w/ the added reps! As for which one...I have a bias towards the HK's

 

[22/22mag]

I have the Sig 228 9mm a fine gun.I also have a compact HK in .40 (friend wants to sell me) to compare the two.
The HK has a saftey and a decocker were the Sig has only the decocker.
I found the HK compact to shoot every bit as well as my Sig 228 .12 round mags will fit the HK .40 and the gun handles recoil very well.My Glock 27 .40 cal has been 100% but the trigger is a little to touchy to carry in a pocket thats why I like the DA first shot in both guns in case I need to carry without a hostler.
I think for me in the 9mm its the Sig 228. For .40 the HK compact.

 

[FNHP35]

I have both a SIG P226 (in 9mm)and HK P2000. The two main differences I see, in either the 40 or the 9mm is the frame material and the trigger system.

Unless you plan on getting a DAK trigger on the SIG, the P229 will be a traditional DA/SA. Nothing is wrong with that, I actually like it a bit better. P2000 uses a LEM trigger, which... is sorta like a pre-cocking but not all the way cocked trigger. It's pretty sweet, just different. Both of the guns are very well made, and are pretty close to the same size. Subjectively the P2000 feels a bit smaller than the P229 that I've handled, but not by much. Both will be very accurate, and my P2000 hasn't had a malfunction yet. P2000 will probably be a bit more expensive, so that is a bit of a downside.

While I don't really care about the frame material difference, it might be a concern for you, the SIG will be an alloy, while the HK will be a polymer.

As for caliber, 9mm is great. That was my first pistol and I'm so glad that's what I got. Half the price on ammo, should equate to more practice. A good 9mm round will put a hurtin' on someone. Anyway, those are my fairly useless thoughts on the subject.

Andrew