Helping Girlfriend Choose A Gun

[Sven]

My girlfriend has come to the conclusion that she is not as safe as she once thought in her home in San Francisco. Her neighborhood has a lot of 'riff raff' types hanging around all day, making trouble (ie, making extremely lewd comments when she pumps gas), and... in a new low, her sister was attacked on a public bus a couple weeks ago.

She's always been interested and open minded about guns, but now she's taking a more personal interest in finding the right gun for her - of course, I couldn't be more pleased and I'm happy to help her. Two nights ago we sat down and started by reviewing gun safety, then she tried dry firing each of my guns. I showed her how to press-check and look for the snap cap, etc. In addition, I had her practice clearance drills with the snap caps and explained why we were doing this.

In the process of her practicing loading and performing malfunction clearance exercises, we quickly learned that she cannot operate the CZ 75 slide because the spring is too strong and the serrations too small for her fingers to grasp. Trying the Glock 17, she had no problem grabbing that slide and racking it.

I can only imagine how much more difficult the CZ would be to rack for her if her hands were sweaty and a bad guy was in her house. I did show her how to rack a gun one-handed using the belt against the rear sights, but obviously that would not be the default method she would want to use to chamber rounds, etc.

This experience reminded me of the importance of spending time finding the right gun for the person... especially when that person will likely only have one gun - for a while. The looks of the gun are just about last in priority for a home defense weapon. The gun needs to feel right for the person and be able to be manipulated successfully in a stressful situation.

Next trip is to the range for her to try the guns in live fire and also rent others for consideration.

Then, to get a safe.

Then, training.

 

[bogie]

She needs a small frame (easier for smaller hands) .357 revolver with a 2-3" barrel, which you'll load with +P .38 Special loads.

No slide, no safety, no high tech crap to get her confused.

Besides, you want one, right?

 

[bjengs]

What's confusing about a semiauto, especially a Glock?

 

[SADshooter]

In general, I agree with bogie that a .38/.357 wheelgun is probably a good choice in this situation. However, joking aside, she needs to find the combination that she ENJOYS shooting. Illustration: my wife. She purchased an SP101 several years ago because she liked mine. She never became proficient with it, though, because of the heavy DA trigger (she would often practice SA) and defensive load recoil.

Fast forward to the present, and visualize the almost demonic grin as she fires a full-size 1911 with thin stocks and a short trigger. This is the pistol at her bedside (accompanied by 5 10-rd mags) when I'm not home.

If shooting her defensive weapon is a chore, your girlfriend's level of commitment to practice and training will need to be much higher. Guide her with informative responses to questions, but let her decide. I think you've got the right approach

 

[AZRickD]

As we all know, the first thing that you have to consider is to have her practice with many different types of gun so she will have an idea what is out there and more importantly, she will see how each of them fit her hand differently.

The gun she buys must fit her hand naturally and comfortably. None of this mini-Glock two-finger hold stuff.

I have no problem with a revolver in the caliber and power you spoke of. But it must be a top-quality revolver with a very, very good trigger. Take it to a smith and get the inards polished and smooth.

My wife carries a Glock 23, and a S&W Chiefs Special btw.

Rick

 

[Steve Smith]

I have a question

I also agree that a revolver is a good choice, but most of the women I date can't operate a revolver's trigger very long...is there a compromise?

I have one g/f type that is 4'11" and about 100#...she can harldy HOLD many of the guns out there. Suggestions? (Sorry, Sven, not trying to hijack your thread)

 

[obiwan1]

You're right to take her to the range and rent various guns. It's her decision. You may want to give some "light editorial comments" about calibers, etc but don't overdo it.

In my humble opinion, most new shooters are best served by a revolver of some sort. Check out the S&W j frames. NOT THE LIGHT WEIGHT versions as they haven't repealed the laws of physics: i.e. they kick! If she doesn't plan on pocket carry (not a bad option with the currently in fashion baggy slacks), go for the 3 inch barrels for better ballistics and sight radius. Also check out the Ruger SP101 in 3".

As for autos, think about her hand size. Mrs. Obiwan's hand fits perfectly around her Kahr K40. I think they're great "ladies guns" that I occasionally carry myself. Again, be careful with the LW models. Actually, the K9 may be the perfect auto for her. The fact that it's authorized for off duty carry by NYPD is a good endorcement.

 

[Skofnung]

I aquited a .38 revolver for my ladyfriend about 3 years ago. She is 5' 4" 100lbs soaking wet. At first, she had the same problem that you describe Steve, she could not hold it up for very long and the DA trigger was hard for her to operate for long periods of time. I simply used a line from one of my favorite movies, The 13th Warrior... "Grow stronger!" Over the years, she has done just that. Now she can hold it steady, but she still has problems with the DA trigger if she fires more than 5 or 6 cylinders at the time in that mode. Otherwise, she can shoot with the best of them. She even outdoes me on occasion.

I got the .38 for her because her hands were too weak to rack the slide on the BHP that I had at her house at the time. Same with the slide on my 1911.

She has no trouble racking the slide on either of my Glocks,(21 and 26) both of which she shoots well now. You might try one of those. The triggers are much lighter than that of a DA revolver, and should give no trouble to weak handed shooters. I have even considered upgrading her gun to a Sig 226 or 228, as she can work the controls on those fairly easily too.

Best of luck to you.

 

[Steve Smith]

I think you and I both know that telling a woman to "grow stronger" is not an easy thing to do.

 

[DigMe]

I've mentioned it before in these threads but my aunt loves her S&W Ladysmith 9mm and she's not one that goes out and shoots a lot (just occasionally when she's out on our land to keep familiar and check the gun). She's very comfortable with it and has carried it for years. I've never shot it but it always seemed like a nice little gun.

brad cook

 

[toro]

I couldn't pull the slide back on the 1911 .45. My husband started doing the gun handling for me so I could shoot. After a while I started to practice pulling the slide back. Soon it bacame easy.

The fact is that any reasonably healthy woman can learn to shoot a .45 auto and similarly effective weapons as well as men. If a woman has small hands she will need to practice. It's true that some women are less well developed in their arm and shoulder muscles, but, simple exercises such as squeezing a rubber ball, racking the slide on a .45 several hundred times and holding the pistol at arms length with a weight attached for a few minutes everday will provide the muscle development needed for serious defensive shooting.

This is not theory, it is fact, I can't begin to count the number of 90 pound, under 5 feet tall women who have become very efficient handlers of the .45. A number of them compete in the very best combat matches.

Mrs. Toro


--------------------------------------------
1 Kings 14: 15,16
For the Lord shall smite Israel, as a reed is shaken in the water, and he shall root up Israel out of this good land, which he gave to their father, and shall scatter them beyond the river, because they have made their grove, provoking the Lord to anger. And he shall give Israel up because of the sins of Jeroboam, who did sin, and who made Israel to sin.

 

[CatsDieNow]

Didn't we just do this on another thread?

My vote is Kahr MK9. It hasn't confused me yet. Let her pick her own out, if you do it then it's your gun.

Bogie: I am capable of changing a flat tire myself too. Just because I can do it, doesn't mean that I won't try to sucker a guy into doing it for me if he's willing. Flattery works wonders here.

"Oh, gee...you're so much stronger than I am, could you please load this magazine for me?"

Steve: Don't know what to tell you. I'm 5'8 and about 105lbs and I have no trouble holding a gun up. It takes some effort to load my Kahr's mags, but I can do it.

 

[Steve Smith]

Mrs. Toro, the issue here is interest, of course. A human can have many different levels of dedication. Some folks will not put that effort into things. Unfortunately, they often have to be "scared" into action.

Cats etc...at 5'8 you have much larger hands. This girl has more problems with the size of her hands than with strength. If she could hold a "normal" sized gun like you or I do, she could easily pull the trigger. Thinking J frame....

 

[Pat S]

Why not check out this topic from a female's perspective? Gila Hayes, a profesional firearms instructor, has written a book on this subject. http://www.firearmsacademy.com/book.htm

Also Paxton Quigley.

This may be your best source of info. plus suggestions on self defense.


Stay Safe, Pat S

 

[AJ Dual]

It's 75% mental

Yes, often "groing stronger" is really just getting acclimated to a certiain function.

Sometimes your body/brain makes assumptions about how heavy/hard an operation should be to perform, and when it offers more resistance than expected, it feels "harder" than it really is.

I suspect people who have difficulty operating slides or DA triggers probably perform other actions most every day that require more strength, (Slamming a car door, picking up a child, twisting off a lid on a jar) but just aren't used to it.

I know I've purchased guns that required more force for slides, op-rods, etc. than I was expecting to operate, but perhaps being a "gunnie" I just accepted the amount of effort and grew accustomed to it, and it quickly seemed normal. (And I know I've not gained any strength doing it.)

That is not to say all firearm qualities can be overcome, some are definitely detrimental such as grip size, and trigger pull-length, and that those ergonomic considerations are important and should not be over looked.

But frankly, in a defensive situation, slide manipulation is not something that should not need to be done with an auto (at least for the first magazine). (and yes, I think the Israeli's are nuts) If it's a design you're not comfortable with "cocked and locked" or "safe action" like a Glock, get something else. The 1% of 1% chance that you'll need that gun one-handed just isn't worth it, IMO. Go with a revolver, or something with an easy to manipulate safety then.

I would say as long as the slide can be manipulated when you are safe, and not pressed for time, and can be "slingshotted" on a fresh mag under stress, it's fine.

 

[lycanthrope]

With a 1911 style gun you can always use a reduced power recoil and mainspring. I run a 17lb mainspring and a 14lb recoil spring in a full size Kimber and it's easy for my lady friends to rack.

Aside from that, a Springfield XD in 9mm is a really nice design and easy to shoot well..... (IMHO)

 

[Sean Smith]

Here is what I have seen... no offense meant to anybody, just my experience.

The conventional wisdom gun suggestions for women are, as often as not, stupid as hell in actual application. Short-barreled revolvers, with their short sight radius (and often crummy sights), long and heavy DA triggers, and relatively heavy recoil, are among the WORST guns for most new shooters to start with. The same goes for the itty-bitty blowback .380s that are often suggested for them... crummy triggers, tiny sights, and abrupt recoil are a recepie for disaster. These might be good choices for SOME women, but are hardly universally sutible.

As a general rule, the user should choose the weapon. However, that does not mean that you provide no knowledge or guidance to them. With inexperienced women, in general they will tend to gravitate to little guns, which seem less intimidating on the counter but are far worse to actually shoot. Guys seem to gravitate to whatever they think is cool, or will keep their buddies from calling them a sissy. Then they try to shoot a .357 Magnum with no skills and wonder why they miss.

My general suggestions to any new shooter, assuming they have to go straight to a useful self-defense caliber, run something like this:

Quality brand
4"+ barrel
9x19mm (auto) or .38 Special (revolver)
No blowback autos

From there, have them scrutinize how the gun works for them. Can they manipualte the controls? Can they reach the trigger? Is the pull too heavy for them to manage consistently? You don't want to push them into a specific choice, but you want them to make an informed, not snap, decision. Of course, shooting lots of guns before you buy is invaluable if you can do it.

The whole business of women needing wimpy guns because they are physically smaller is pure B.S.. I've worked small women up to shooting 10mm Glocks in an afternoon at the range... and liking it better than the 6'3" guy who shot it ahead of them! .45 ACP 1911s are no big deal if the instruction is good and the new shooter is receptive and listens. Some of it is physical, but almost all of it is mental.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Gas stations have attendants who pump gas?

OK, I'm too cheap to pay the difference. Oh Oregon!

Concur with revolver if she can't rack a slide. 3" barrel is about the best for concealibility and accuracy (longer sight radius and less muzzle blast). There's a range in SSF you can take to her to practice at (or the Optimist Club in San Leandro). The good thing about indoor ranges is that you can adjust the distance of the target from the convenience of the shooting booth.

 

[Skofnung]

Yhea, the "grow stronger" quip did not go over well at the time. If I remember correctly, I got the evil sidelong stare that I am sure you are familliar with. But in the long run, that is exactly what she did.

I think it may have been more like what Mrs. Toro said, she just needed to develop the muscles used in doing the required activity.

Andrew: I have seen the mental block very often in guys that are not familliar with guns. One anti guy that I took out (and converted ) is a bodybuilder type. After shooting misc. .22 rifles & pistols, he tried my BHP, and he could not rack the slide! For a split second, I could not believe it, but then I remembered he was an anti, and had never handled one before. I just told him to grab it like he meant it, and pull. He did it with no problem then. I guess he thought he was going to break it or something. I find that happens quite often with newbies.

 

[Kharn]

Take her to a rental range, and dont leave until she's found something *SHE* loves and can operate (only restriction is dont let her pick a 'pretty' .22 over a 9, .40 or .45 that she can reliably operate).

Kharn

 

[Tommy Gunn]

Advocating a .357 Magnum revolver with a two inch barrel for a woman is crazy. The muzzleblast of a magnum snubbie will turn her off from shooting forever.

My advise is to get an older S&W Model 10 (military & police) revolver with a 4" tapered barrel. These are nice and light with a smooth trigger.

 

[Sven]

She doesn't like the looks of revolvers.

The Kahr PM9 was just approved in CA... hmm...

 

[pax]

Sven,

Congrats to you and your lady on having the wisdom to get her a gun and training.

I do hear good things about the Kahr PM9. Personally, I don't like the trigger reset, but that's my only real complaint and for many people it would be minor. The gun is so flat and light that it is an ideal carry gun.

Do let her try some of the smaller Glocks, too. Make sure that she tries the baby Glocks both with and without the extended magazine grips. Personally, I do not like the extended grips and find they even mess up my accuracy -- but I think I'm in the minority.

Since this has turned into primarily a handgun thread, I'm going to bump this over to handguns. Good luck in helping her find the right gun.

pax

I have always believed that a true gentleman provides covering fire while a lady is reloading. – Tamara on TFL

 

[only1asterisk]

Sven,

The Kahr K9 was was once available in a variant called the Lady Kahr. It's only difference from the standard K9 was the recoil spring. It was lighter, enabling people with less hand strength to rack the slide. I looked at a used model in a local shop yesterday and the slide in VERY much easier to rack. The model is no longer available, but the spring is. I think the P9 uses the same spring setup as the steel guns. The lighter spring does not allow +P ammo, but nothing stops you from putting the stock spring back.

Several of the smaller females I know like the 3" model 60, and at least one has bought her own.

There are several recent threads, so no need to rehash.


David

 

[CatsDieNow]

Cats etc...at 5'8 you have much larger hands.

I did do a lot of fencing when I was younger, my hands might be stronger, but I doubt that they are larger. I hold my MK9 as if it were a full-size gun. I can get all of my fingers comfortably on the grip. The trigger is also not too far away. It's cute too.