Here is one I have been mulling over.

Status
Not open for further replies.
M

Mr_Moore

member
Joined
Sep 25, 2005
Messages
245
This happened to me about 25 years ago - before I did ccw. I accidently cut a guy off on the road and he was riding behind me for a while with high beams on and horn blowing.

A few miles down the road I pulled into a parking lot and got out of my car - I did not get out to confront him: I thought he had stayed on the road. He pulled in behind me; got out screaming; and he approached me - he really surprised me. I had 2 children in the car. I do not remember if he was threatening me, but he was yelling.

What I did was told the guy not to come near me.

He did not heed my warning and when he stepped within striking range I hit him hard in the mouth and nose (I used to be a weight lifter and steel worker and I know it hadda hurt). He got back into his car and left.

How do you handle a situation like that? I am a LOT older now and probably would get creamed in a fight. I am almost always carrying concealed.

I am thinking now that I would probably pull my gun and give him the same warning. "Don't come near me."

Would I be justified in shooting if he did not retreat? Would I be justified in pulling the gun?

I live in PA.
 
duty to retreat?

i dont know your laws, but id assume if you had some guy honking and flashing you you should stay in your car where you finally park, long enough to assess if he is gonna show up there. if your confident he didnt follow you but then he did show after you got out i assume best way out is to get in your car and drive away. unless you had a interest that you could not leave such as you were parked and picking up your grandmother and couldnt leave her alone with the nutjob. i think its under that whole 'duty to retreat". if you can leave, without abandoning a life at risk, then you should leave. if your truely cornered and hes said anything thats a threat then id feel justified in drawing on him but i wouldnt shoot unless i really had to.
 
I am thinking now that I would probably pull my gun and give him the same warning. "Don't come near me."

Would I be justified in shooting if he did not retreat? Would I be justified in pulling the gun?
Click to expand...

Why not hop back in the car and take off? With the instrument (car) and ability (you, the driver), to leave the area, it would not be a good shoot. Even if he followed you, there's still the chance to evade, or pull up to a police station with the horn blaring. Stay in the car, doors locked, and wait for the civil authorities to deal with it. If he gets out of his car to approach yours, drive off and use the advantage of the head start to get away.
 
I guess I did not fully explain the situation.

You both made good points based on what I had said, but I did not fully explain the situation - sorry.

I had gotten out of my car and closed the door. I was a few steps from the door when the nut pulled up.

I could not get back to the car before he was on me. Even if I got to the car, I could not drive away as he was blocking me in.

So there you go. I had no opportunity to retreat.

Now what do I do? He is comming at me in a threating manner. At least I perceive it as threating.

I think if he was yelling "I am going to knock your teeth down your throat" my course of action would be clear. I would pull the gun.

But like I said, I do not remember if the threat was implied by the way he approached me or if he actually made threats. I think I would still proably pull my gun, hoping that it would dissuade him.

I guess my question is, "Assuming I can not retreat, can I take action if someone is just approaching me in a threatening manner?"
 
even with the car not being a way of excape, you could still run away on foot. if he tried to catch you and you were out of breath and could not evade him or summon help then the gun would be a option. fear of him messing up your car isnt a legal reason to stay. defense of property vs defense of life. you can shoot him to protect your life or anothers life but only if you have no other way out.
 
rustymaggot said:
even with the car not being a way of excape, you could still run away on foot. if he tried to catch you and you were out of breath and could not evade him or summon help then the gun would be a option. fear of him messing up your car isnt a legal reason to stay. defense of property vs defense of life. you can shoot him to protect your life or anothers life but only if you have no other way out.
Click to expand...

That makes sense.

But, don't forget I had 2 little kids in the car at the time. Also, I am not that young anymore and could not outrun a "insert slow thingie". Also, I did NOT want to turn my back on this guy.

By the way, I appreciate the feed back on my question. It has been bugging me for some weeks now and I could not resolve it. The Flordia no need to retreat law is making more and more sense to me.
 
If a similar situation were to take place, but his verbal threats caused you to shoot him, I'm afraid that MOST states would charge YOU with some type of crime! Even if you were able to articulate your reasons well enough to be "marginally justifiable", you could possibly be charged with something like "discharging a firearm within city/county limits".

The articulation aspect would require such things as you saying that you had "exhausted all other means available" for defending yourself, or for retreating. In the situation that you were in, with small children in your vehicle, your articulation points would also include that you FEARED for the safety of the children.

Go up one notch, hypothetically: The man who is outraged and verbally threatening you is humongous, much larger and stronger than you. That would tend to make you fear "great bodily injury".

I hate to sound like I'm "coaching" you, for I'm not. I'm merely trying to point out a few things that you've probably ALREADY mulled over, but didn't mention. Here are a few things that you might think of "exhausting" before you resort to deadly force:

A: The outraged driver "probably" had somewhat of a good reason for being angered. Try to defuse the situation with common sense, by apologizing for having accidentally cut him off, or whatever else provoked the anger.

B: Consider your surroundings! Are there other people around? Did you yell for assistance, or ask someone to call the police? How about "obstacles" that you might be able to step behind, to at least make it more difficult for the angered man to get to you?

C: Even if you have "exhausted" all other reasonable means, give some consideration to firing a "warning shot" if it can be done safely (not in the air, and not on an asphalt/concrete surfaces).
Look for a piece of grass or dirt. "Warning shots" aren't always deemed as being "reasonable", but at least you didn't resort to DEADLY force!

D: If you DO feel that deadly force is both "necessary" and "reasonable", don't jump back in your car and drive off! That would make you look like a criminal, instead of a person that was in fear for his life.

E: One "weapon" that is usually deemed as as being "non-offensive" and nowhere in any category of actually being a "weapon" is your car keys! Even though I carry a concealed weapon ALL of the time, whenever I leave my home to get into my car, or when I get out of my car to go into a store, my door/ignition key is "at the ready" in my hand. If someone were to grab me, the key would be used as a "slashing" tool. Tell your female friends about keys, for I know that it saved one young lady from being forcefully robbed or raped!

F: PEPPER SPRAY! Check you local/state laws regarding "pepper", but I'd guess that it is legal in most states when used to defuse a violent, hand-to-hand altercation. Oh, and it DOES work!

What it all boils down to is using GOOD common sense, and the realization that your LEGALLY carried firearm can get YOU into trouble quite easily!
 
As always you have to consider not what you have the right to do or what is tacticly smart, but what the law is.

In some area's you have a duty to retreat, if you can't prosecutors have a funny way of finding ways you could have. If you have other options, use them esspecialy if the other guy isn't brandishing a weapon otherwise there is a good chance you are screwed legaly.
 
I think you did just fine for the times. I got into some fistacuffs myself as a laddie.
Now days, I think I would have done things differently.
Seems like today, everything instantly goes from words to guns. In my younger days, the 'option of last resort' was your fists.
 
Two children in the car. The father is blocked from entry, and a man who has been acting if not irrational, threatening and he has a duty to retreat!?!?! To where away from his children?? Probable Cause is defined as "information that would make a reasonable prudent man believe" . My belief would be that he has the probability to commit harm. The discusion following the father exiting the car would be the critical information needed on how to act. I would tell him to stay away from me without pulling my firearm. I would also try to get back to my vehicle. If he tried to stop me and was approuching me I would tell him to stop. If he continued, I'd shoot him and go to court. I would not show him my weapon or let him know I had one. A man has the right to protect himself and his family. Many here seem to disagree with this and think this approach is too agressive. I disagree.
Jim
 
Looks like I have my answer

I would protect myself then call a lawyer before I made my statement to the police.
 
this worked for me:

My situation was similar, but I did not get out of the car. I had two punks tailgating, then driving tight alongside yelling and making threats, etc. I had a pistol and put it on the seat in case I needed to use it such as if they forced me off the road and tried to pull me out of the car. I knew where the police station was in the municipality where this happened so I drove to it with the punks tight on my ass all the way until I turned the corner into the cop shop. They veered off a 1/2 block away and proceeded to give me the finger, etc. They drove off after a while. I just sat at the station a while then beat it home. With the situation of having kids in the car I totally agree with JMusic. Bad guys don't deserve a warning unless the warning shot is through their heart.
 
I think if he was yelling "I am going to knock your teeth down your throat" my course of action would be clear. I would pull the gun
Click to expand...

If he's not yelling, "I'm going to kill you", or something to that effect, then it's doubtful you'd be justified in shooting the guy.

With the option of pepper spray and handgun you're much better off than just with the handgun alone. The pepper spray helps make up for you lesser strength/agility and allows you to even the odds in a potential "ass whoopin" without resorting to deadly force.
 
Seems right to me

I think you punching this fellow in the mouth, after you warned him, was justified. You warned the fellow to stay back, he kept coming. Typical macho BS that comes with a pair of testicles, can't do much about that, age seems to help some, not much more. He had it coming, no doubt.

However, the use of deadly force now instead of a well earned pop in the mouth is quite a leap. If you were to bring about deadly force, I would hope that you would provide the road rager more opportunity to rethink his stance by; (1.) brandishing and verbally stating you have the gun while backpedalling to gain more distance (maybe around your car, shows some attempt at retreat) (2.) Drawing the gun if he doesn't back off and (3.) Telling him that this is something he has forced on you, please leave, I don't want to shoot you and (4.) "you leave me no choice," squeeze trigger for a warning shot if you can. (5.) Shoot the perp if this doesn't work, you've taken 4 steps to defuse the situation, if he keeps coming, he's just dumb and out of his gourd.

It reminds me of a quote a girl who used to ride with the police on Saturday night patrols in college said. "It's amazing how fast people calm down when a gun is pointed at them." Most of us would be no exception to this rule.

jeepmor
 
Simple. YOU make the threat for him. If he comes out of his car and comes at you, reach for your firearm and yell that you have a firearm and will ASSUME HE MEANS TO KILL YOU IF HE APPROACHES. Yell it loud enough for everyone to hear you. Scream it.

"I HAVE A GUN AND IF YOU COME ANY CLOSER I WILL ASSUME YOU INTEND TO KILL ME AND MY CHILDREN!"

If he continues to approach, draw and put two in his chest and one in his head. You absolutely cannot risk getting in a fist fight if you're carrying. In fact a fist fight is almost always deeply stupid, which is why teens are the ones most likely to engage in fistfights.

Now there's a chance in theory he'd respond he just wants to punch you, but frankly most of these road rage fools don't have the wiring for that sort of legal argument. Once you've made it clear it's life or death, he will back down unless he wants to commit suicide.

If you live in a state where the DA's prosecute all self defense shootings, get out of there. Such places are mired in crime and Democratic administrations anyway and it's a good idea to leave them in general.
 
Pennsylvania has a "sorta" duty to retreat. What the law actually says is that deadly force isn't justified if you "know you can retreat in complete safety". Note the words "know" and "complete". I'm not a lawyer and I haven't read the case law so that's about all I can tell you.
 
PA law excerpt. (I should have done this earlier)

A Google search got me this -

http://members.aol.com/StatutesP8/18PA505.html

§ 505. Use of force in self-protection.
(a) Use of force justifiable for protection of the person.--The use of force upon or toward another person is justifiable when the actor believes that such force is immediately necessary for the purpose of protecting himself against the use of unlawful force by such other person on the present occasion.

(b) Limitations on justifying necessity for use of force.--


The use of force is not justifiable under this section:

to resist an arrest which the actor knows is being made by a peace officer, although the arrest is unlawful; or
to resist force used by the occupier or possessor of property or by another person on his behalf, where the actor knows that the person using the force is doing so under a claim of right to protect the property, except that this limitation shall not apply if:

(A) the actor is a public officer acting in the performance of his duties or a person lawfully assisting him therein or a person making or assisting in a lawful arrest;
(B) the actor has been unlawfully dispossessed of the property and is making a reentry or recaption justified by section 507 of this title (relating to use of force for the protection of property); or
(C) the actor believes that such force is necessary to protect himself against death or serious bodily injury.


The use of deadly force is not justifiable under this section unless the actor believes that such force is necessary to protect himself against death, serious bodily injury, kidnapping or sexual intercourse compelled by force or threat; nor is it justifiable if:

the actor, with the intent of causing death or serious bodily injury, provoked the use of force against himself in the same encounter; or
the actor knows that he can avoid the necessity of using such force with complete safety by retreating or by surrendering possession of a thing to a person asserting a claim of right thereto or by complying with a demand that he abstain from any action which he has no duty to take, except that:
(A) the actor is not obliged to retreat from his dwelling or place of work, unless he was the initial aggressor or is assailed in his place of work by another person whose place of work the actor knows it to be; and
(B) a public officer justified in using force in the performance of his duties or a person justified in using force in his assistance or a person justified in using force in making an arrest or preventing an escape is not obliged to desist from efforts to perform such duty, effect such arrest or prevent such escape because of resistance or threatened resistance by or on behalf of the person against whom such action is directed.


Except as required by paragraphs (1) and (2) of this subsection, a person employing protective force may estimate the necessity thereof under the circumstances as he believes them to be when the force is used, without retreating, surrendering possession, doing any other act which he has no legal duty to do or abstaining from any lawful action.

(c) Use of confinement as protective force.--The justification afforded by this section extends to the use of confinement as protective force only if the actor takes all reasonable measures to terminate the confinement as soon as he knows that he safely can, unless the person confined has been arrested on a charge of crime.

______________________________________

As usually the law is pretty wordy. It DOES say you need only retreat if you can do so in complete safety. It also says that there is no need for retreat in your home or at work.

So that answers my original question.
 
I don't want to sound Macho here and believe me I exhaust all other alternatives prior to drawing a weapon but warning shots make me want to puke! People, warning shots assumes the other person doesn't have a weapon. How do you know that? If you fire a warning shot it should be a shot at the person that missed.
Jim
 
About 20 years ago, I was driving home from college - back country road, etc... Some guy thought it'd be fun to drive 5' from my rear bumper with his brights on... After a few miles of this, slowing down, speeding up, etc., I had enough, reached into my camera bag, flipped on a strobe, and let it charge. Rolled the window down, waited until we were on a left curve with nobody coming, stuck it out, closed my eyes, and popped the manual button...

I don't think hit anything major, but he did go off roading.
 
bogie said:
About 20 years ago, I was driving home from college - back country road, etc... Some guy thought it'd be fun to drive 5' from my rear bumper with his brights on... After a few miles of this, slowing down, speeding up, etc., I had enough, reached into my camera bag, flipped on a strobe, and let it charge. Rolled the window down, waited until we were on a left curve with nobody coming, stuck it out, closed my eyes, and popped the manual button...

I don't think hit anything major, but he did go off roading.
Click to expand...

Remind me not to get you mad.
 
Stay in the car and use it as a shield and mobility. Bad things can happen when dealing with road rage.

Story--a guy is driving around and gets tangled up with a guy in a road rage. The other fellow follows guy 1 around . Guy 1 goes into a neighborhood away from his house. Goes into a cul de sac and gets out. BAd guy walks up, pulls out a butterfly knife and stabs guy 1 three times--once in each lung and once in the throat. Guy 1 goes down whereupon Guy 2 proceeds to kick him in the head until he quits moving. Guy 1's 3 year old daughter witnessed the whole event.

Stay in the car!!
 
There wouldn't be any parking lot situation for me to handle. Forgetting about this guy and being surprised by him is not even a remote possibility. When angry drivers want my attention they get it. Guaranteed! :evil:
 
....Yell it loud enough for everyone to hear you. Scream it.

<snip>

If you live in a state where the DA's prosecute all self defense shootings, get out of there. Such places are mired in crime and Democratic administrations anyway and it's a good idea to leave them in general.
Click to expand...

Good idea, shoot what is likely an unarmed person after you 'started' the altercation (cut the dude off), scream you're going to shoot him loud enough so that witnesses hear you do it, then leave the scene after putting '2 in the chest - 1 in the head'. And this is the advice for somebody living in a self defense unfriendly state?

#1 advice to this guy is to not take legal advice from people on an internet forum. Read the laws of your state and consult a real attorney about the parts you don't understand. In some states pulling a gun and shooting somebody that doesn't have a gun is going to land you in jail for a long time (as some just don't see a 'fist fight' as a deadly encounter), in other states it may very well be ruled a good shoot.

The advice about carrying pepper spray or a tazer of some sort is a good one. As a concealed weapon holder you don't want to get into a physical altercation with somebody, and not every situation demands '2 in the chest - 1 in the head'. Having something a little less lethal is a good option.

Just remember that whole thing of "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6" is a bunch of macho bravado (80% of the crimnal cases that the DA puts in front of a jury in my area comes back with a conviction). It's much better to be sitting at home with family after the DA rules what you did was "proper" for the circumstances.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

C
  • Locked
potential "situation" the other day - opinions wanted
2 3
Replies
50
Views
3K
rrruuunnn
R
M
  • Locked
Driving Late at night w/ car problems
2
Replies
25
Views
2K
JColdIron
J
S
  • Locked
police tactic question
Replies
14
Views
502
Robert
Robert
Jeb Stuart
  • Locked
Dash Cam for CCW
2
Replies
30
Views
3K
Kendahl
K
I
  • Locked
No CCW, what would you do
2
Replies
40
Views
2K
Fred Fuller
F
Back
Top