here's a doozie for ya

[45bthompson]

Alright, one of my soldiers has been asking me for advice on buying a deer rifle. He has never owned a gun and plans on going hunting with his father in law when we get back. When talking to him he explained to me that when he was 16 he was charged with and convicted with a plea of "No Contest" of strong armed robbery which he said was classified as a class 3 felony. He also stated that the charge had not been expunged from his record. After he told me that I asked him how he got in the military and he replied "the recruiter got me a waiver".

For what its worth he is a stand up soldier. He is now 26, married with three little girls and I completely trust him not only with owning a hunting rifle but also with my life.

I am worried about asking JAG or anybody military related because if his enlistment was not kosher I'm afraid that he could end up with a dishonorable discharge. I also don't want him to go in and fill out a 4473 cause of the same reason. I advised the soldier to talk to a lawyer outside of the military when we get back to the states and go from there.

Does a juvenile felony prevent a person from EVER owning a firearm?
Can he be discharged for this? (He carries an M4 with a 203 everyday).
Any other advice I could give this guy?

 

[calaverasslim]

YEP! Keep his mouth shut and when he gets home and out, then hire a lawyer.

You can talk rifles all day long but leave this one alone.

signed
Retired barracks lawyer

 

[bikerdoc]

Ya, tight lips untill he talks to civilian counsel in the jurisdiction it happened in.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

YEP! Keep his mouth shut and when he gets home and out, then hire a lawyer.

If he got a wavier, then the military probably knows already. Even so, this is a civilian matter and needs to be handled at home.

Does a juvenile felony prevent a person from EVER owning a firearm?

Are you certain he was charged as a juvenile?

 

[garyr]

IANAL (I am not a lawyer).

That being said, so long as he was a juvenile, and charged as one, he should be OK. If he was charged as an adult, lots of states allow the annulment or expunging of a felony record so long as it was the first and only offense and there have been no subsequent convictions.

If the conviction was in federal court there isn't anything you can do right now.They just aren't processing them.

I speak from a little experience. I had an adult felony conviction, from when I was 18, annulled.

As stated, definitely contact a lawyer.

 

[45bthompson]

I'll have to ask him if he was charged as an adult. He told me he was 16 when it happened but I have heard of teenagers getting charged as adults.

If he got a wavier, then the military probably knows already.

As for the "waiver" the military makes more mistakes then we like to admit. But then again he could totaly be in the clear.

 

[Art Eatman]

I go along with Posts 2 & 3. Offhand, that seems to sum it up nicely.

 

[NavyLCDR]

If he is prohibited from possessing a firearm in the civilian world because of a felony or domestic violence conviction, than he is also prohibited from possessing a firearm in the military. It does not matter if he got a waiver in order to enlist. Enlistment and firearms possession are two entirely separate matters. If he truly is prohibited now in the civilian world - then he is currently committing another felony now by possessing the M4 in the military. This is Federal law common to all military services, not just the Navy.

In the Navy, it was recently changed that a Sailor ineligible to possess firearms can be discharged (administratively, not punitively) for that reason alone.

Qualification: I am the Ammunition, Arms and Explosive Officer for my command and I screen Sailors' records prior to their issuance of small arms for deployment.

 

[45bthompson]

Thank you Sir,
It turns out he was tried as a minor and the felony charge did not carry over to his adult record because it was a class 3 felony which is the minimal class of felony charges. His waiver IS valid and he CAN legally purchase, own and posses firearms.

On a lighter note.... I told him to grab up a Remington 700 when we get home

 

[Black Knight]

The class 3 felony conviction concerns me. Even though he was a minor felony convictions usually follow you. Just to be on the safe side have him see a civilian attorney before he even handles a gun of any type at home. The military may over look it by issuing him a duty weapon but civilian law enforcement is a different animal. I don't want to see a good man who made a mistake and turned his life around jammed up but that is how it could go down if he isn't careful. Good luck and stay safe.

 

[AlaskaMan]

Maybe go to the closest state police and pay a small sum to have his criminal history printed out. All states allow this. In Alaska it costs $40. This is the exact same information that the Law Enforcement Officer will have access to about your record. It will show whether or not the felony conviction is present (because it will NOT show a juvenile conviction. Don't assume that an expungement order from a Maryland court will be accepted by Texas. The expungement order from the court should be from the state the offense occured in, not the state you live in.
18 USC§ 922. Unlawful acts
(2) It shall be unlawful—
(g) It shall be unlawful for any person—
(1) who has been convicted in any court of, a crime
punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce, or
possess in or affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition;
or to receive any firearm or ammunition which has been
shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.

Notice how there is noting there about juvenile vs. adult? There is also no language about a time limit, expirations or statute of limitations.

Good advice in the 2nd and third posts.

Say nothing/don't touch a gun until you talk to a lawyer. The military does a lot of things for their convenience, not because they are legal. Because the military gave him a gun to carry on the base should not convey any authority or restoration of rights in his private life. The presence of a violent felony conviction("strong arm robbery") in his past should indicate that no assumptions be made about whether the conviction is still in the record.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Say nothing/don't touch a gun until you talk to a lawyer.

Extremely bad advice, considering the location:

45bthompson
Member
Join Date: June 29, 2010
Location: Tent C9, FOB Walton, Kandahar Provdance, Afghanistan

 

[legaleagle_45]

The issue is quite more complex than it might first seem. The answer requires a much greater explanation of the actual circumstances than is now present and requires the application of specific law in the jurisdiction where the "felony" was commited.

The facts as we know them is that

he was 16 he was charged with and convicted with a plea of "No Contest" of strong armed robbery which he said was classified as a class 3 felony.

OK, was he tried as an adult or as a minor? If the latter the actual charge may be "delinquency of a minor by virtue of committing what would be a class 3 felony if an adult".

This makes sense from the next explanation of the circumstances:

It turns out he was tried as a minor and the felony charge did not carry over to his adult record because it was a class 3 felony which is the minimal class of felony charges. His waiver IS valid and he CAN legally purchase, own and posses firearms.

This would be the result in my state. If a person has been tried as a minor on a crime which would have been a felony if he had been an adult, he has actually not been convicted of any "crime" whatsoever, much less a felony. However, some states, including my own provide for the carryover of certain juvenile proccedings onto an adults record, but in my state, that is the exception and applies only to certain heinous crimes such as murder, rape, etc... If it is not on the list of specific exceptions delineated by statute, then the juvinile proceeding is automatically expunged from the persons record upon reaching the age of majority. That is my state, the law in other states may differ and probably do. I would advise the young man to contact an attorney in the state where the incident occured and who is familiar with juvenile law and expungment. The matter can probably be taken care of in a single telephone call costing about $100.00

My qualifications: legaleagle and father of a former juvenile delinquent who got apprehended for a graffetti incident at school and was charged with a crime. Said juvenile delinquent, in addition to the community service ordered by the court, was grounded for an extremely long period of time, almost amounting to cruel and unusual punishment, but said delinquent is now an adult in good standing in the community with a thriving business of his own and has a daddy who is kinda proud of how he turned out.

 

[medalguy]

I think it may depend on the state in which he received the conviction.

In Texas, a juvenile who either pleads guilty or no contest does so to a charge of having engaged in delinquent conduct, NOT to any specific criminal offense. The whole purpose of the juvenile justice system is to protect juveniles from a criminal record and give them a second chance once they become adults. Again, in Texas, when an offender is committed to the juvenile justice system (Not thrown in adult prison) he is generally released on his/her 18th birthday as they are an adult at that point. Further violations of law put them into the adult criminal justice system.

Any juvenile record is sealed and no one sees this record after he turns 18 unless a court orders the record unsealed. Therefore no adult needs fear that his juvenile record will come back at a later date to haunt him unless it is used, say, in an adult proceeding to show a lifetime of criminal offenses.

I would suggest your soldier contact the attorney who originally handled his case, and find out if this is true in his state. I would bet he is probably going to find he has no criminal record to worry about. And tell him "Thank You" for serving our country from me and everyone on this board. And you too.

 

[45bthompson]

Thank you all for your advice and input. Yesterday and last night I was researching this to the best of my ability (while keeping a low profile). After finding several situations like his from the state that he is from I am confident that his rights have not been revoked in any way. That said..... I advised him to keep his past to himself to avoid any other confusion. I also reintegrated that seeking legal counsel from a lawyer experienced with his specific situation is a must.

I would suggest your soldier contact the attorney who originally handled his case

He doesn't like that guy. LOL. I guess he was just driving the car and had no knowledge a crime was being committed till his friend jumped in and told him to drive away fast. He thinks his original attorney could have done a better job.

Say nothing/don't touch a gun until you talk to a lawyer.

I am assuming you missed part of the original post. We carry our assigned weapons at all times. Nice thing about that is since my first deployment it no longer bothers me carrying a full size 1911 in the states.

 

[Art Eatman]

Well-covered...