High Fences

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The "belongs to everyone" argument is invalid. I live in Texas. Most people live somewhere else. I hint in mcmullen county...people that hunt 10 miles away from will never see The deer on the low fence place I hunt. The deer there won't be available to you or 99.9999% of the other hunters in this country, for the simple fact deer just dont travel that far.

A small percentage of the deer that live near the perimeter might be available to the adjacent landowner, thats about as "everyone" as
It gets You guys make it sound like if there were no high fence, there would be a line of people standing outside to get their portion of a natural resource that belongs to them. Many times, the neighbor is the reason for the high fence in the first place. Remember that saying, good fences make good neighbors?

If a landowner should have to pay you for a deer behind a high fence, should I be able to bill you for when one of "your" deer eats the plants at my house, or jumps in front of my truck and causes thousands of dollars in damage?

Should I be able to charge the state for the deer eating food off the land?

Of course I already know what you'll say... Because its always the same one way argument when it comes down to it.

does anyone know why deer are so special, and there is this huge argument about not being able to confine them? I mentioned earlier about other resources being owned... bought....sold....traded.... manipulated. Why should deer be exempt?
 
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If you own deer they are livestock or pets, if they are wild no one owns them. If you don't get wild and free as in unfettered there is no reason to discuss sportsmanship or ethics. The state doesn't own them either, just regulates hunting for the common good.
 
"ethics" vary regionally. I don't impose my ethics upon Washington state or Oregon. Why to NEerners always want to impose theirs on me? I don't have to go up there to hunt and they don't have to come down here, right? These things always come down to regional ethics, it seems.
 
If you own deer they are livestock or pets, if they are wild no one owns them. If you don't get wild and free as in unfettered there is no reason to discuss sportsmanship or ethics. The state doesn't own them either, just regulates hunting for the common good.
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now you're just being philisophical. "wild and free" doesn't have anything to do with a fence. I visited my parents this weekend, and they have some of the tamest deer I've ever seen.... more tame than some deer in breeding pens, and it's completley high fence free.

"penned".... that sounds a lot like a word that PETA members use.... I've said this before on here, but I bet the vast majority of the deer never see the high fence in most high fence ranches. When people say "penned", it's usually an insult... I don't know why a high fence that is 1 or 2, or 5 or 10 miles away from where I"m trying to shoot a deer has anything to do with anything....
 
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On those points I mostly agree with both of you. You have to draw your own conclusion as to what fair chase is. I didn't bring it up and I don't have anymore to say. Your own business is yours.
 
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In a 10,000 acre fenced in area there are plenty of deer that have never even seen the fence. On my lease you see the same bucks on one side, and you see the same bucks on the othe side, but you never see the bucks from one side on the other. And, no fences.

Do I want to hunt a small fenced in area? No.
Do I care if anybody else wants to? No.
 
i don't hunt high fence places and never will: It's not my bag of tea. i have no problem with hunters who do hunt high fence places.

The alternative I took years ago was to buy my own little piece of Texas heaven and, by golly, lookin' back on it, I have gotten my money's worth in spades just in the memorie[/QUOTE

+1
There is no substitute for owning your own hunting property. My wife and i own three hunting properties. All have at least one pond. Two of those places were bought at sheriffs auctions, cheaply. Highest price per acre was $450 for 120 acres: The price of a decent diesel pickup.

Just love it when farmers ask to rent the pasture, they can't believe i don't want cows.
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Probably oughta do a little dictionary study on "ethics". Those oughta pretty much be the same, anywhere, when it comes to hunting. Clean kill of a fair-chase animal in accordance with game laws.

Morals are cultural and not only vary around the world but even within countries.

None of which is really on topic. :)
 
Art,

If I remember my Texas history, I believe Texas offered the U.S. government substantial amounts of state land if the U.S. would pay off Texas' significant debt when it joined the Union. The U.S. declined which left Texas no alternative but to divest the property on its own. Given the oil resources in West Texas and the Gulf, maybe not such a great decision from the feds perspective, although the lack of public land certainly affects the nature of much of our hunting, in many ways positively in my opinion.

I think your reference to ethics is right on point. I have the good fortune to have access to a high-fenced Texas Hill Country ranch of significant size that is managed for a quality deer herd. There is nothing "canned" about trying to hunt deer in that rugged territory. On the othe hand, I might feel differently if the land was flat and featureless, even if it was fairly large. Certainly on a small tract I would have a problem. In the end, it is our own sense of what is right or wrong that will tell - our ethics.
 
Ethical views vary by person, skills, weapon, culture and time period.
 
There's plenty of public land one can hunt in Texas if you enjoy the challenge and refuse to pay to play. It's a misconception to think Texas has no public hunting. It is around, most of it in East Texas, but it's around. I've got places near me in Corpus I can hunt hogs, waterfowl (danged good, too), and doves.
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Subjectively speaking of course :rolleyes:

Comparatively to Az, and NMex, Texas has very little hunt able public land.;)

*What type of hunting pressure do these lands receive during season.
*What type of animal numbers are supported.
*What are the harvest ratios.

Texas fenced hunts are livestock endeavors, that not every "good standing" hunter can afford. And ,every other state in the union that can do as Texas are doing so.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing I'm all for land owners profiting from their land. Its just another step towards the end of traditional hunting. Sort of like Golf has evolved to.
 
Some people have so many deer around they are considered as much pest as game animals and that makes a difference too. I had forgotten this but many years ago a Texas hunter told me that they have too many deer where he lives and they shoot them to thin them out. A few years ago, traveling back roads at night North of San Antonio deer were plenty thick. I had to drive pretty slow and watch out. If you live where deer are scarce or hard to hunt they will be valued differently too.
 
Probably oughta do a little dictionary study on "ethics". Those oughta pretty much be the same, anywhere, when it comes to hunting.
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So it would seem on the surface. FWIW, there are states that allow hunters to do things that are not only considered "unethical" in my home state, they are illegal and could cost you some cash, the game animal, and your hunting privileges. As others have pointed out, "ethics" and laws vary from region to region.

Back on topic. I personally don't have a problem with "high fences". But I would wager most hunters in Wyoming would have a knee jerk reaction that would equate "high fence" with exotic game farm, etc. Not "fair chase" by any means...or is it?
 
I'm not saying it's a bad thing I'm all for land owners profiting from their land. Its just another step towards the end of traditional hunting. Sort of like Golf has evolved to.
__
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Traditional for me, I'll turn 60 this year, is the deer lease. Long as I can remember, this is the only way one could hunt Texas. now, there's lots of acreage for free "by comparison", probably more than some NEern states are big. There's always been, in my lifetime, 5 national forests in east Texas and now there's bunches of WMAs to hunt. Yeah, it's tough hunting and there's a high population of humans in that region and I don't hunt there out of self preservation. Even hunter orange would save you if some city raised idiot is color blind. :rolleyes: I hunt my own place.

But, here, it's been about leasing long as I can remember and now days, there are at least alternatives. BTW, I've been the only one hunting hogs on GDWMA when I've gone mid week. The hogs say to thickets and it's buckshot only, hard hunting. I've scouted it and know where they are, but admit I mainly go for the outing not expecting a shot. I have plenty of hogs on my place, don't really need the WMA for hogs, just enjoy getting out on a large chunk of land for a day and carrying my 10 gauge cannon. :D

Besides, we go another year of drought, we'll be just like Aridzona. The land won't grow anything, but cactus.:neener: J/K, of course, I have areas there I love to VISIT, especially on my motorcycle. :D I wouldn't want my hunting season to depend on my luck in a permit lottery, though. :rolleyes:
 
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Hey MCG, in Terlingua, even the cactus is dying. Since August, 2010, we've had a total of 0.25" of rain, and the last 0.1" was August 2011.

Georgia and Florida are loading up with "game ranches". I don't know what sort of fences they have, but they aren't anywhere near inexpensive in their fees. Some of them are like the fly-in subdivisions with houses along an airstrip. These have a small residential subdivision of maybe 40 acres and then community hunting land of a couple of thousand. Far more thick forest than out west, of course, and streams/ponds.

As far as costs, though, my grumpiness has more to do with the notion that money ain't worth much, anymore. It's all welll and good to grump about one or two thousand dollars per gun for a lease, or three dollars or more an acre--but where's my nickel coffee? My penny post card? My 25¢ hamburger? Those went away, too, just like inexpensive hunting.
 
These high fence threads always get a lot of views, that's for sure. They are growing in popularity in FL, & I have seen a herd of elk and blackbuck antelope just this week, right behind a brand new high fence... That particular property is just under 1,000 acres, is private, and I beleve landowners have certain rights. This will make the 13th High fence operation to go into Suwannee Co. FL.

I do beleive that the wildlife gene pool is being shaken up a bit, as non-native animals are being transported in from other states for this trade. Money and Sport are the driving factor behind it, "Mother Nature" be damned. Resident Wildlife populations are affected as these fences go up, mainly through routine travel patterns.

I also believe interstates with 8'+ ht deer fences erected adjacent to both sides of the right of ways to prevent wildlife from finding their way onto the freeway, restrict movement of wildlife in a similar manner.

Fragmentation of the landscape occurs, which is not a generally a good thing in the long run, but i have experienced hunting in High Fence Operations before, under a few special circumstances, it will spoil you from "the real thing".
 
It's these little 500 and under acre plots that piss me off to no end
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I'd love to see you find a specific deer in 500 acres of Texas Hill Country scrub. We have a good deal more than 500 acres, and if you pay for one, we guarantee you a trophy buck. Note: Not a specific trophy buck. Because good luck finding any specific buck on our spread even with one of us guiding you. If a buck doesn't want to be found, he isn't being found.

Now, we've had hunters in the past who have paid for a specific buck... they just get to spend a week or so looking for him... and then come back for another week the next month because they couldn't find him the first time.



While we are at it, let's talk about he people who inevitably bring up the second complaint about high fence ranches, hunting over feeders. Bunch of hypocritical hacks making that complaint in my opinion. What the heck do you guys think feed plots are? Hunt over a corn or oat field lately? Got that bottle of doe urine in your back pocket? It amuses me to no end the lengths some people will go to to pretend that their method of hunting is more "pure" than other peoples. Newsflash, unless you have a wooden recurve bow, a grunt and a pair of mocassins, you've got no room to talk. Don't be jealous that someone figured out that you can get corn in a bag instead of breaking your back making a food plot.

Oh FYI, the people with real experience will know this already, but deer generally stop coming to corn feeders right about the time the rut starts and won't come back to them for quite some time. The deer are usually chowing down on clover during that period, so hunt over that and leave the corn in your truck. Kinda makes the complaining about hunting over feeders look silly, doesn't it?



forgetting to mention that the owner just put his pet in the 200 acre pen for them an hour ago
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Now that kind of thing is an outright abomination, but so is pretending that's what commonly happens on high fenced ranches. That's a few bad apples giving the industry a bad name... and it has nothing to do with high fences. That garbage happens on all types of game ranches.


What I dislike, is capturing a state resource, that is owned by the people of Texas, for someone's exclusive use and profit. Just because a ranch is huge, doesn't make it better, in my eyes. You have still "trapped" a state resource, and should either release it, or pay the state for it. If you choose to pay for it, it's yours to do with as you will. I belive that's pretty conservative, if not libertarian stance.
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Sure, we'll pay the state for the first generation that was on our property when we fenced it in... then the state gets to pay us for every sucessive generation that we've bred & fed... and since we've significantly improved the genetics on our land from the piss poor hill country horned rats we started with, we're going to charge the state a premium. While we're at it, we're also going to bill the state for resources and time spent eliminating pest and nuisance animals, often at the request of the state. Sound fair?

I'm all for that program, the state treasurer and it's citizens might not.


..and for those of you that have never hunted with a guide, or job is two fold:
1) Give advice on where how to hunt if you ask for it, otherwise to shut-up and blend in to the terrain.
2) Make sure you don't have to turn over the truck keys because your eyes were bigger than your wallet.
 
Newsflash, unless you have a wooden recurve bow, a grunt and a pair of mocassins, you've got no room to talk.
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I would probably bet that I was hunting with stick and string in scrub brush while you were still knee high to a cricket. Don't know why you tended to pick out and half quote me but you obviously didn't pick up on the comprehensive part of reading in class. I was referring to the little canned operations that you see blossoming up all over the north east. If you had read a bit and actually understood plain English, you would have noticed that I was referring directly too Keith Warren and most of the other TV hosts and the way they "hunt" for their TV shows when I mentioned the 200 acre released pet buck.

You will also have noted that I whole heartedly agreed with Art about MOST of the Texas high fence operations as they are usually very well run and well within fair chase. I don't particularly care for hunting deer over a feeder but I sure will jump on hunting food source, water source, or any other natural draw considering thats how you hunt!

Seems to me that the only one getting snippy on here so far has been you Click.
 
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