Highway Patrol/State Patrol calibers, Looks like 40 S&W is #1

[easyg]

The writing on the wall says that the 9mm is, worldwide, by far the #1 caliber in military, police, and self defense use today, and will be for the forseeable future, probably until we invent ray guns.

World wide???

Well heck, there are plenty of nations who's cops don't even carry handguns at all.
That doesn't mean that our police should follow suit.

 

[Boris bush]

I do not think it would be less effective either! My point is it is more of a personal choice, and to state that half the agencies in the USA choose this because of a marketing gimick, and not because of actual inteligent thinking is rediculious and biased.

Post 121 also covered it very well. Our point is the 40 has no real world advantage performance wise over comparable 9mm loads. A great marketing campaign and lots of hype in the rags put the 40 in a class all in its own. People got paid to get people excited, it was new and fangled. I remember before it came out. I watched it for years. I even tried it out. It in no way performs better than 9mm loads of the same projectile at the same speeds. I dumped the 40 before I ever owned a computer. Then I see people extoling the hype as if they know it is true.

The 40 is fine, just dont fall for the hype. Even if an advantage can be found it is so ever slight, and then its when the comparison is not equal.

Are you going to tell me a 230 grain at 1015fps can be outclassed by any 40 load of your choice? Even then wit hthe 45 being "+P", it is still does it with 60% less pressure.

The 40 will never be better than the 9mm. We showed you several examples. The 40 in no way will ever be able to meet the 45s power level from 165 grains all the way upto the new 200 grain 40s. The 40 will never launch a 230 grain bullet at 1015fps.

That means the 40 does not have 9mm capacity and it does not have 45 power. Its just a 10mm shortened to fit a 9mm framed gun. Thats it...

 

[saturno_v]

Comparing a 180 gr. .40 bullet to a 185 gr. 45 bullet is comparing apples to oranges.

The 40 in 180 gr. has a higher SD.

An appropriate comparison is a 155 gr. .40 with a 185 gr. .45 and a 180 gr. .40 to a 230 gr. 45.

The two rounds are for all practical purpose equal.

If I really need more power, I take my 10mm....

 

[saturno_v]

Are you going to tell me a 230 grain at 1015fps can be outclassed by any 40 load of your choice? Even then wit hthe 45 being "+P", it is still does it with 60% less pressure.

The 40 will never be better than the 9mm. We showed you several examples. The 40 in no way will ever be able to meet the 45s power level from 165 grains all the way upto the new 200 grain 40s. The 40 will never launch a 230 grain bullet at 1015fps.

That means the 40 does not have 9mm capacity and it does not have 45 power. Its just a 10mm shortened to fit a 9mm framed gun. Thats it...

It will not outclass a 45 but neither the 45 outclass the 40 by any stretch of imagination.

The 40 will never launch a 230 grain bullet at 1015fps.

It does not need to launch a 230 gr. slug because a 180 gr. 40 bullet already matches the sectional density of a 230 gr. 45

A Double Tap 200 gr. 40 load can deliver 490 ft/lb of energy with a much higher SD


....let's leave the fantasy land...the two rounds are essentially the same in terms of effectiveness...I do not reload so I like the 40 slightly less ammo cost and the usually higher magazine capacity.

 

[Boris bush]

It does not need to launch a 230 gr. slug because a 180 gr. 40 bullet already matches the sectional density of a 230 gr. 45

I already said that. Wanna know what has a higher SD? a 147 9mm. Thats why the 9mm is so well know to be a deep penetrator. I mean just look at the similar constructed projectiles between the 9mm and 40. The 9mm actualy expanded more AND penetrated more than the 40. I wonder if SD had anything to so with that??

 

[bdb benzino]

It in no way performs better than 9mm loads of the same projectile at the same speeds.

You could say the same for 40 and 45. You are stating your opinion as fact, and yes I have seen reports that the 40 not only had a higher percentage of one shot stops but it also leaves a bigger hole. In order for the 9mm to come close to it has to be +p or +p+.

 

[saturno_v]

I already said that. Wanna know what has a higher SD? a 147 9mm. Thats why the 9mm is so well know to be a deep penetrator. I mean just look at the similar constructed projectiles between the 9mm and 40. The 9mm actualy expanded more AND penetrated more than the 40. I wonder if SD had anything to so with that??

Yep...if you look at that test, the bullets that penetrated the most (and both generously expanded) were the 147 gr. JHP 9mm and the 180 gr. JHP .40

 

[Boris bush]

Nope. I just presented the facts. Now that we are on the same page that the 40 almost is as good as 45 on paper, minus the lack of meeting its expansion and the fact the 45 still launches a 165 100 fps faster. SO now that we have cleared it up. the 40 (even though it gets close) does not meet the 45s 'power' and it can not launch a 230 at 1015fps would mean the 45 is still better. Right? Now look (again) at the 9mm 147 and 40 caliber 180 with near SDs launched at the same velocity. Not only does the 9mm expand more with the same design projectile, it also penetrated more. How can you say the 40 is better?

I presented the facts. You can go back and read them. You are the only one that presents an opinion that has no factual backup. Your emotion is getting in the way. The smoke is too thick for you, or maybe its the mirrors making the smoke cloud look bigger than it is.


I have also already proven that the 9mm does not need +P or +P+ to beat the 40 in penetration and expansion. Projectiles within .006 SD at the same speed are so close in expansion (.04") and penetration (.2") that they are for all purposes equal. Sometimes you need to read past the hype and glossy advertisements and paid reviews. Sometimes it takes a little knowledge in how ballistics really work. I am not paid to hype the 40 up. I have no agenda or bias. I just know a few things them ragazine authors are not telling you. I base what I say on my educated level of ballistics. What do ya know, the information is even there for you to lookup. I made it easier by doing the leg work for you.

Glad I could be of a help to you..

 

[saturno_v]

...........Now that we are on the same page that the 40 almost is as good as 45 on paper..........

It is as good as, not "almost"....deciding between the two is only a choice of personal preference, not performance.

As I said before, if I really need more power than a .40 I get my 10mm....

 

[Boris bush]

So on that note. When 9mm can be shown it performs the same as 40. For what reason would soooo many police make it the number one choice??

I bet marketing and hype has something to do with it......

I agree on the 10mm. It can be downloaded to 40 specs or it can be loaded past 357 mag specs. The real gun 56% of the police in this nation should be carrying is 10mm if we were to base a choice on performance. So sad the 45GAP has a bigger following with the police. Another round that is said to be hyped up. Too sad the choice is made based soley on the hype a cartridge has.

I got over the hype more than a decade ago. If I want good performance I carry my XD9. If I want 45 performance I carry my G37. THe 40 does nothing better than either of my choices. It just sits there playing monkey in the middle jumping up and down I almost got 9mm capacity, I almost got 45 power, I do have 60% more pressure than 45, I do have more time between splits than 9mm, please pick me. Sorry if that assessment does not jive with what you think, or have read...

 

[Boris bush]

Time to go watch 80+ falling stars an hour now.

And please realize valorius and I do not dislike or hate the 40. We are just fedup with the spoonfed hype everyone believes purely on blind faith. We presented very sound facts to show the 40 is not any better than what it was 'designed' to replace.

 

[GLOOB]

Hmm. Maybe if the 100 grain 9mm hada better SD.

100 grain 9mm is going to average .113. The 45 caliber in 230 grains is .162. Why look at that similar SD to the 180 40 cal and 147 9mm and all three get for all intents and purposes the same amount of penetration......

So what exactly was your point? I dont post something unless I somewhat know what I am talking about. I keep my thinks out as much as I can.
__________________

Thanks for the clarification on the math. I just threw a number out, and it was way off. I was giving 9mm way too much credit for SD. So in reality it can barely beat the other two for SD, thanks for the info. But even if 9mm can throw similar SD at similar velocites as the other guys, .45 ACP has 61% more cross sectional area, and .40 has 27% more cross sectional area than 9mm. So why doesn't this make any difference to the statistics nerds who point at all the other numbers? Doesn't a larger bullet mean more tissue destruction? OF course it does. That's why HP's are used.

You can point to penetration. You can show final, expanded diameter as almost the same as .40. But why not compare total wound channel volume? I think that's the one stat that the 9mm arguments gloss over - as if final expanded diameter is equivalent to wound channel, even though the .40 has a pretty big head start in diameter. I mean, think about it. If you contend the bullets expand all the way within the first few inches of penetration, then now the 9mm has 25% less SD than the .40. That's obviously not the case, because 9mm penetrates as good or better. So it might be more accurate to say that 9mm HP makes a smaller wound channel than .40, but it starts to catch up toward the end.

 

[yeti]

The more I read, the more I think I want a .38 Super.

 

[easyg]

Poor, poor Boris....
None are more blind than those who refuse to see.

Penetration....
All of the calibers we are discussing can easily penetrate completely through a human body.
And if we wanted to do that we would just shoot FMJ ammo.
But we don't want over-penetration.
We want adequate penetration, nothing more and nothing less.
The .40, the 9mm, and the .45 all offer adequate penetration.

Expansion....
Expansion is nice, but even with the best ammo one can never count upon expansion.
The 9mm obviously suffers the most in this department since it starts out with smaller diameter than both the .40 and the .45.
If none of the rounds expand as hoped, then the 9mm will make the smallest hole and the smallest wound channel of all three.
And if all three rounds expand as hoped, the 9mm will still make the smaller hole and the smaller wound channel.

Energy....
I realize that this is a hotly debated area, and I also realize that we currently don't fully understand the role that energy plays in the effects of bullets upon humans.
But one thing is not debatable: rounds with more energy delivered to the target are more effective than rounds with less energy delivered to the target.
This is one of the reasons we don't want over penetration.
And this is also one of the reasons that hollow-points are more effective on humans than FMJ rounds.
We want the bullet to stay inside the target for two reasons:
1) Safety. We don't want it hitting an innocent bystander.
2) Energy transferal. We want the round to dump all of its destructive energy in to target.
It doesn't seem to matter much if the energy is gained by using a big and heavy slug going slow (think .45ACP), or a smaller and lighter slug going fast (think .357 magnum), just so long as the energy is there.
The designers of the .40 chose to get that energy by using a medium size slug going fast, which is why it is a high pressure round.
Boris often states that the .45 does the job with less pressure than the .40, and this is true.
But so what?
The .357 magnum does the job with even more pressure.
So what?
As long as it gets the job done and the handgun is still accurate and controllable, it matters not.


I'm done arguing the point here.
I've seen the difference in shootings involving all three calibers firsthand.
The 9mm is definitely the least effective of the three calibers we have been discussing here.
Can it put a man six feet under?
Yes.
But is it less effective overall than the .40 and the .45?
Yes.

Is the .45 more effective than the .40?
From all that I have seen, the answer is clearly NO.

Is the .40 more effective than the .45?
From all that I have seen, the answer is clearly NO.

Does the .40 allow a smaller framed handgun with more magazine capacity than the .45?
And can the .40 deliver to the target the energy desired without using +P ammo or a 5" barrel?
Yes, and yes, which is why I prefer the .40 over the .45 as a carry weapon.

There's no hype to it.
The .40 has been in use for twenty years now.
Hype and marketing can't keep something afloat for twenty years unless there is real merit to the product.
The notion that so many law enforcement agencies choose the .40 just because of hype and marketing is just nonsense.

There's just no getting around the fact that the .40 is a fantastic self-defense handgun caliber.
And apparently there are a lot of police agencies that agree.



The majority of the police in the USA are not going back to the 9mm because it has proven itself less effective than certain other calibers.
And the majority of the police in the USA are not choosing the .45ACP because they want more magazine capacity or a smaller handgun or both.


Easy

 

[easyg]

The more I read, the more I think I want a .38 Super.

Before you buy that .38 Super, compare the data to the .357 Sig.

 

[FLAvalanche]

Something of interest to me was the 9mm and 45 combined only equal the 45GAP. Anyone that knows BB, knows I carry a G37. For me it is the answer the 40 never gave. Real 45ACP "power" from a 9mm sized gun. Kinda neat to see the old warhorses falling off so fast to a cartridge that has only been around 7 years now......

Especially from a round that was heralded on this very site as an answer to a problem that doesn't exist, would never take off, and was pointless.

 

[Robert]

Wow a six page peeing contest between 40 and 9... I thought we didn't do caliber wars any more.

For what it is worth my father in law was on the team that picked 40 for the Colorado State Patrol. They seemed to think it offered more than the 9 and were willing to trade a few extra rounds for that gain. Our 4006 mags held 15 rounds of 40 per mag. We carried three mags. If that was not enough I had a 870, M16 and M14 in the car... CSP has since changed over to the M&P, still in 40 though.

 

[Cards81fan]

Yep...if you look at that test, the bullets that penetrated the most (and both generously expanded) were the 147 gr. JHP 9mm and the 180 gr. JHP .40

Exactly. The heavier the bullet, the greater its inertia and it will maintain its velocity as it penetrates deeper. So while it has a slower velocity from the beginning, it still penetrates more.

Hence my comment about artificially leveling the playing field by comparing a 180gr .40 to a 180.gr .45.

The moral of this is carry the largest, heaviest bullet and caliber YOU are comfortable with and confident in. Trying to argue any more detail on this really adds no value. What's the expression? Something about teaching a pig to sing...

 

[hardworker]

You people do realize you're all arguing over at most a tenth of an inch? If we were hunting rhino that kind of difference might matter but since the velocities of all these rounds are comparable you're all arguing minutia of ballistics. It's like arguing the difference between eating 14 ham sandwiches and eating 19.

 

[Joe Demko]

A real man can eat 20 ham sandwiches, then point at the pickle on your plate and say "You gonna eat that?"

 

[easyg]

Exactly. The heavier the bullet, the greater its inertia and it will maintain its velocity as it penetrates deeper. So while it has a slower velocity from the beginning, it still penetrates more.

But there's more to stopping a human aggressor than mere penetration.
If penetration is all you're concerned about then just shoot FMJ ammo.
You'll get plenty of penetration even with a 9mm FMJ slug....in fact, too much penetration.
Unless you're fighting "The Blob" you're not likely to need more than 12" penetration.
The heart lies just a few inches behind the sternum.

The thing about penetration is that you want just enough to reach and damage or disrupt vital organs and vessels, but more penetration than that is counter-productive.
This is why everyone who is allowed to shoots hollow-points instead of FMJ.

Sure a heavier bullet offers greater inertia.
But it also suffers from less initial velocity....especially from a short barrel pistol.
If you're shooting 147g 9mm standard pressure ammo from a 3" barrel,then you're killing the velocity, and high velocity is something that the 9mm needs in order to be effective.
The 9mm performs dismally at lower velocities....it essentially becomes a heavy .380 round.

 

[saturno_v]

Exactly. The heavier the bullet, the greater its inertia and it will maintain its velocity as it penetrates deeper. So while it has a slower velocity from the beginning, it still penetrates more.

It is not that simple...bullet are not shot in vacuum....you need to take in consideration sectional density and the frontal area (for the drag equation).

On top of that, if you shoot expandable bullets there are many other additional variables in play (rate of expansion, etc..)

Assuming for sake a simplicity 2 non expandable bullets, one heavier than the other and both striking the same target with the same energy, is not a given that the heavier one will penetrate more if it has a significant poorer sectional density and larger frontal area.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

What does NH state police carry? I know they carry S&W M&Ps but what caliber?

 

[Sam1911]

But there's more to stopping a human aggressor than mere penetration.

Yup... shot placement.

Hey, look! A caliber war! Yaaaay.

Surely we've moved beyond argining 9mm vs. .40? ... Right? ... Right?


<sigh>