easyg
Member
Then you know that the role the handgun plays in war is insignificant at best.
The same cannot be said of the handgun's role in police work.
Highway Patrol/State Patrol calibers, Looks like 40 S&W is #1
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The same cannot be said of the handgun's role in police work.
I don't know what to say...probably a fluke in that particular bullet weight....if you have more energy going through the same medium (and same bullet diameter) you either penetrate more or expand more....I would not have neen surprised if less penetration would have been coupled with higher expansion for the 357 Mag.
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I'm working on a 9mm bullet design that will penetrate 20 inches of ballistic gelatin. The first 19 inches, it penetrates like FMJ. Then at 19" it finally starts to expand to its final diameter of 0.8 inches. I assume it'll be a massive hit with the statistics nerds.
Compared to 9mm: .40 carries a bit more energy. It will deflect less off bone or glass. It expands a little bit larger. And it start out a little bit larger, too. And fer pete's sake .40 SW can take down an escaped Bengal tiger, which has been proven. Also, IME 9mm is an inherently inaccurate cartridge, relatively speaking of course.
Compared to .45ACP: In short barrel lengths, it seems to close the gap with .45 ACP, and you can get much greater capacity in some cases. In small pistols, either caliber is a bit of a handful. I like .40 in compact pistols and .45 ACP in larger guns, personally.
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ccsniper
member
this went into a 9mm vs .40 caliber war with 10mm being the winner of course 
I don't see AR state on there?
I don't see AR state on there?
easyg
Member
No, you're wrong again.
Earlier you stated that the data you posted was all +P ammo, "including the .40".
So you have already demonstrated to everyone that you think that there is such a thing as a +P .40 load.
And now you think that there is such thing as "full house" .357Sig loads.
I shoot .357Sig rounds out of this little lady all the time.
And yes, I have shot Double-Tap ammo out of it too...and it just doesn't kick significantly more than the .40S&W or a 9mm+P.
And I just have average middle-age hand and wrist strength too.
But if you really think that the .357Sig kicks that much, then maybe you are better off sticking to the 9mm.
I repost what I had to say few weeks ago in another thread...
I do not understand why after the publication of this well known test.....
.....which happened quite some time ago, these silly debates still go on....
There is anybody that seriously think that there is any actual practical differences in terminal effectiveness on humans between 9mm, 40 S&W and 45 ACP??? Do you really think that if you hit someone in exactly the same spot he/she may survive/shrug off a 9mm while a 45 would stop or kill?? If you really think so I have a bridge in New York to sell you....
Boris bush
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Now this might come to you as being a shocking turn of events. I was brought up around guns. I can not even remember the first time I shot one. Family has alot of farms. Ever since I could legaly own a pistol I have. Back in the 90s I gave the hype a try. I have shot critters from a couple pounds to man sized critters with 9mm, 40 and 45. I been reporting for years on the web about hunting with service grade pistols. Before I ever got on the web I had shot more than enough animals with 9mm and 45. I gave the 40 a try for a couple years.
I observed with many different loadings what works and what did not. What I also observed was the 40 doing nothing better than the 9mm. It sat idle for a few years in the safe and sold it for no loss at all to some guy I worked with that HAD to have a 40 as his first pistol. I mean afterall the rags told him it has 45 power in a 9mm sized gun. What better reason to get a caliber, right?
What I posted here only confirms what I experienced over many years. Years before I ever had an internet to even compare and prove my field results.
I in no way shape or form will say this is evidence, you have no obligation to believe me. I however have shown you that sectional density and velocity, when both are the same, the caliber is inane. The slightly better sectional density 147 9mm has been proven to penetrate MORE than a 40 caliber at the same speeds with projectiles of the same design. That DOES prove what I have said. I however do not need these paper results to KNOW the 40 is but an equal to the 9mm.
If it makes you feel any better I carry a 45 mostly and a 9mm sometimes. The 9mm will do everything a 40 will (from what I have seen, not claim) with more ammo and more control. I just have something called experience, thats it. I go by what I have proven to myself and the only way you will ever understand is to spend 20+ years of shooting 9mm 40 and 45 into live animals of all kinds and sizes. When you are done get back to me so we can compare notes.
Remember, this is the internet, you might run into people with experiences you do not have yourself. I will only post what I can prove. I have given more than enough to support what I say. All I ask is for proof what you say is true. Put the puddin' on my plate, thats where the proof is. Until then you will not be able to provide on paper evidence. I already did the leg work. It is not there. You can claim all you want. Shoot your 40 all you want, carry it all you want. Just be aware it will not perform any better than a 9mm. If it gives you false confidence then practice more. If you are a good shooter then you are good to go..
The Lone Haranguer
Member
A minor quibble, if I may: the California Highway Patrol is the state police. There used to be a California State Police that exclusively protected state government facilities such as courthouses, but they were taken over by the CHP some time ago . (I am a California native.)
Boris bush
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thats why I carry a 45........
easyg
Member
I also grew up around firearms and I have discovered that not all calibers are equal when it comes to stopping creatures, both large and small.
Some calibers are definitely more effective than others.
And the 9mm, while a good solid self defense caliber, is just not as effective as certain other calibers.
And it does not surprise me that the majority of police agencies have abandoned the 9mm.
Some calibers are definitely more effective than others.
And the 9mm, while a good solid self defense caliber, is just not as effective as certain other calibers.
And it does not surprise me that the majority of police agencies have abandoned the 9mm.
Finally, something we can agree upon.
easyg
Member
It might not out perform the .45, but it does perform as well as the .45.
And I get more rounds in the magazine, and in a smaller handgun that is a better fit for my grip.
Boris bush
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For sure.
I just get tired of the people that are 100% positive the 40 is the best ever and throw out what they read with no experience to back it up.
Does a cordless power drill that has less battery life and is two pounds heavier have better performance than another brand that is lighter with longer battery life? Even though they both screw just as fast as eachother?
Will a 40 that expands almost as much and penetrate a little less drill a target as good as a 9mm that expands a tad more with a bit more penetration? Probably. Its upto you if the same exact performing weapons will work at all. A larger caliber with a heavier bullet with 70ish fpe more will not magicaly do better if the operator is of poor quality. I believe we both agree on that too. I seen what it does on live targets, seen the wounds. I read the paper results of simulations and it does not live up to the hype we see sooooo often in the rags. Nothing more or less my man..
Boris bush
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Are you even slightly serious?
The lighter 180s are not as fast as 185s in 45s. Not fair? 165 40s move at 1150fps, cool beans. A 45 caliber 165 moves out at 1250fps. Both loads are made by Corbon. Apples to apples once again from the same manufacturer.
Show me where the 40 within 5 grains of 45 ammo comes even anywhere near 45 performance. Not to mention the 45 gets this performance with 60% LESS pressure.
http://www.dakotaammo.net/Self-Defe...ORBON-Self-Defense-JHP/SD40165-20/100/Product
http://www.dakotaammo.net/Self-Defe...ORBON-Self-Defense-JHP/SD45165-20/100/Product
the 45 is even cheaper.
Now if you increase the 40s case length to 25mm you can get equal performance...
http://www.dakotaammo.net/Self-Defe...ORBON-Self-Defense-JHP/SD10165-20/100/Product
Lets see them 40 loads that are performing better than the 45 offerings. I am kinda curious to see them..
edit: oops I mean atleast as good as.....
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Cards81fan
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I hear ya.
Oklahoma has a Highway Patrol, but they also have OSBI (state investigators), ABLE (alcoholic beverage a.k.a beer police
), Fish & Wildlife Game Wardens, Department of Corrections, Horse Racing Commission, Gaming Compliance Unit (for Tribal Gaming), and a multitude of college police departments...but the only agency that refers to itself as "State Police" is the Oklahoma Bureau of Narcotics.
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Cards81fan
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The Oklahoma Dept. of Corrections authorizes for issue:
a. Revolver (Institutions/Internal Affairs)
Smith & Wesson six-shot, double action, .357 caliber or equivalent, blue or stainless steel construction, 4" barrel.
b. Revolver (Community Corrections)
Smith & Wesson six-shot, double action, .357 caliber or equivalent, blue or stainless steel construction, 2 to 4" barrel.
c. Semi-automatic (Institutions/Internal Affairs)
Glock, (models 17 and 19) or equivalent, 9-mm, double or safe action, blue steel, stainless steel, polymer, or aluminum construction, 4-5" barrel. Fugitive apprehension agents and internal affairs investigators are authorized the use of the Glock .40.
d. Semi-automatic (Community Corrections)
Glock (models 17, 19 and 26) or equivalent, 9-mm, double or safe action, blue steel, stainless steel, polymer, or aluminum construction, 2.5-5" barrel. Glock (model 22, 23 and 27) or equivalent .40 cal, blue steel, stainless steel, polymer, or aluminum construction, 2.5-5" barrel.
http://www.doc.state.ok.us/Offtech/op040106.pdf
a. Revolver (Institutions/Internal Affairs)
Smith & Wesson six-shot, double action, .357 caliber or equivalent, blue or stainless steel construction, 4" barrel.
b. Revolver (Community Corrections)
Smith & Wesson six-shot, double action, .357 caliber or equivalent, blue or stainless steel construction, 2 to 4" barrel.
c. Semi-automatic (Institutions/Internal Affairs)
Glock, (models 17 and 19) or equivalent, 9-mm, double or safe action, blue steel, stainless steel, polymer, or aluminum construction, 4-5" barrel. Fugitive apprehension agents and internal affairs investigators are authorized the use of the Glock .40.
d. Semi-automatic (Community Corrections)
Glock (models 17, 19 and 26) or equivalent, 9-mm, double or safe action, blue steel, stainless steel, polymer, or aluminum construction, 2.5-5" barrel. Glock (model 22, 23 and 27) or equivalent .40 cal, blue steel, stainless steel, polymer, or aluminum construction, 2.5-5" barrel.
http://www.doc.state.ok.us/Offtech/op040106.pdf
george d dennis
Member
connecticut state police sig 229 in .40
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So the .45 ACP is obviously the worst of the three by this measuring stick. It has the lowest cross sectional density AND the lowest velocity. By this logic, if you went with a 100gr 9mm bullet and downloaded it to 875fps, it would then be equal to .45 ACP.
It's understandable that so many issue the .40. It has plenty of power, as much and at times more than the .45, and it has 9mm like capacity. It's not magic, nothing is, but it has served well and it's a fantastic self defense cartridge.
REAPER4206969
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They are government property.
Boris bush
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Hmm. Maybe if the 100 grain 9mm hada better SD.
100 grain 9mm is going to average .113. The 45 caliber in 230 grains is .162. Why look at that similar SD to the 180 40 cal and 147 9mm and all three get for all intents and purposes the same amount of penetration......
So what exactly was your point? I dont post something unless I somewhat know what I am talking about. I keep my thinks out as much as I can.
Boris bush
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I know you know your 40s. This is also the best pro 40 post I seen and I know what you have done with handloads and the 40 if you are the guy I am thinking about.
If it makes you 40 guys feel any better. I think (only thinking here, so it is not a hard fact) the 40 cal 165 grain loads like The Goldensaber (full power ones, not like the 165 hydrashok low velocity load) round is on the top 5 list of best overall load/caliber combos. BUT, and its a big butt. I do not like the extra time between splits with that load. I even shot pins, plates, IDPA and IPSC to show myself my splits are better with 9mm loads with the same performance. Just because its what I prefer, does not make it the best of the best of the best....
RETG
Member
Not going to get into one of these silly arguments about my caliber is bigger and better than your caliber especially when the majority of the people (not all) who are commenting have never had to fire a handgun in self-defense.
To correct the original message, there is no Utah State police. Do you mean the Utah highway patrol? Very big difference between a state police agency and a highway patrol agency.
To correct the original message, there is no Utah State police. Do you mean the Utah highway patrol? Very big difference between a state police agency and a highway patrol agency.
Runningman
Member
See if this helps. I've fixed some of my error(s).
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