Joe Demko
Member
"Penultimate" means next to the last. It can also mean of or relating to a penult, which is the next to the last syllable in a word.
Highway Patrol/State Patrol calibers, Looks like 40 S&W is #1
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"Penultimate" means next to the last. It can also mean of or relating to a penult, which is the next to the last syllable in a word.
easyg
Member
Just think....all of those police agencies fooled by mere marketing.
Joe Demko
Member
Pennsylvania doesn't have a highway patrol, either. The organization is called the Pennsylvania State Police. They did switch from DAO Berettas in .40 to .45 GAP Glocks not too long ago.
Boris bush
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You were, so why couldn't they?
edit: Still waiting to see them 40 loads that at the very least equal 45 loads apples to apples.....
easyg
Member
If only were those police agencies as clever as you are Boris....
Maybe you should write to them and tell them the error of their ways.
Who knows, you might save some officer's life by getting him to ditch his .40 for a 9mm.
We've already covered that with the Speer 180g .40 compared to the Speer 185g .45.
If both are fired from barrels of the same length, the .40 actually has better velocity than the .45.
And penetration is virtually the same, as is energy delivered to the target.
I will concede that the .45 has a slightly larger diameter (0.05") for what that's worth.
It's undeniable....
Cops have ditched the 9mm in favor of more effective rounds, like the .40, the .357Sig, and the .45Gap.
And cops have ditched the .45ACP in favor of calibers, like the .40 and the .357Sig, that offer more magazine capacity, and a smaller framed pistol, and with virtually no loss in effectiveness.
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Boris bush
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So is that it? Still waiting for them loads.....
valorius
member
No idea what you're talking about, sorry.
I have posted the gel tests of some of the hottest ammo on the market, apples to apples, all in the same brand, almost all using the same excellent Speer Gold Dot JHP, and the fact is that 9mm provides almost equal or even superior performance to all the major calibers in FBI spec gel testing, with the exception of .45acp.
I posted it in black and white, twice. I think that my credibility is just fine.
I know that when a soldier needs his sidearm he needs it every bit as much as a cop does. Hell, i'd say that when he reaches for it, he needs it more than the cop does. The solider is fighting to protect his unit and his nation. Not just himself or a small handful of victims.
And yep, almost without exception, military forces of the world have selected a 9mm to be that sidearm.
What's more, on a global scale, i would be stunned if 9mm is not far and away the #1 most used cop caliber on earth. It's still mighty popular in the US police forces too. My city's cops still use 9mm, and it's one of the most violent in the entire country, perhaps in the world.
Sorry, i meant ultimate.
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easyg
Member
Here's another good example....
Remington Golden Saber ammo:
180g .40 from a 4" barrel
mv = 1015 fps
me = 412 ft. lbs.
vs
185g .45 from a 5" barrel
mv = 1015 fps
me = 423 ft. lbs.
So there's only 11 ft. lbs. of energy between them, same velocity, and the .45 was shot from a longer barrel.
Shoot them both from a 4" barrel and the .45 will have less velocity and less energy than the .40 round.
Here's the link...
http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/handgun/golden-saber-hpj.aspx
Remington Golden Saber ammo:
180g .40 from a 4" barrel
mv = 1015 fps
me = 412 ft. lbs.
vs
185g .45 from a 5" barrel
mv = 1015 fps
me = 423 ft. lbs.
So there's only 11 ft. lbs. of energy between them, same velocity, and the .45 was shot from a longer barrel.
Shoot them both from a 4" barrel and the .45 will have less velocity and less energy than the .40 round.
Here's the link...
http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/handgun/golden-saber-hpj.aspx
Cards81fan
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While your information is factual, you are using the largest projectile the .40 will shoot, it least in a commercial loading. The .45 can be stoked with an up to 230 gr round.
I know you are trying to show that the .40 can equal a .45 in force, and that is true, but only if we are artificially leveling the playing field by handicapping the larger cartridges.
I hope that was diplomatic enough
bdb benzino
Member
I have taken my whole collection down to 9's, 45's, and 38's for simplicity. I used to mostly have 40's and they do kick a touch more. Eventhough I have got away from it, I would be obviously biased to not see the usefullness of a bigger bore than a 9, carring almost the same amount of rounds as a 9, and pushing the same ft lbs as a 45! Just becuse you do not like it does not make it ineffective for others!
valorius
member
The .45 is going to put a far larger hole in the bad guy- and do it at a much lower pressure level, as Boris has pointed out repeatedly.
BTW, there are numerous 185gr .45acp loads in the 550-600fpe energy range if you want to drive them to more .40S&W like pressure levels.
Benzino: No one is saying .40 is not effective. We're just saying it is not more effective.
sohcgt2
Member
The numbers I saw don't support that statement. 9mm provides almost equal or even superior performance to some other major calibers may be more accurate, although somewhat less dramatic.
If you ever shoot bowling pins you will understand the advantage of larger, heavier bullets. Their advantage is forgiveness. 9mm is good for PD if you hit vitals. .357 sig and .40sw are good for PD if you get close to vitals. .45 is good for PD if your in the neighborhood of vitals. Your argument that people prefer lr rounds in .357 mag doesn't hold water. Everyone I know of uses the hottest round they can handle for PD. I use Federal's hottest .40sw load for PD, or .45+p from Cor Bon depending on which gun I'm carrying. Back up is always 5 rounds of .357mag handloads in a snubby.
easyg
Member
I used those loads because Boris wanted an apples to apples comparison (similar weight bullets, same maker, etc...).
Truth be known, the 180g .40 is not the most effective load for the .40.
If you think the 230g is a more effective load for the .45, then let's compare it to a more effective .40 load as well....the 155g .40S&W...
Speer 230g .45 Gold Dot from a 5" barrel:
mv = 890 fps
me = 404 ft. lbs.
Speer 155g .40 Gold Dot from a 4" barrel:
mv = 1200 fps
me = 496 ft. lbs.
Here the .40 actually produced more energy than the .45 despite being shot from a shorter barrel.
The .45 does best the 155g .40 when it is a 200g .45 +P shot from a 5" barrel, and even then only by 22 ft. lbs. of energy:
Speer 200g .45+P Gold Dot from a 5" barrel:
mv = 1080 fps
me = 518 ft. lbs.
Shoot them both from the same barrel length and you might not see any difference in energy delivered to target.
Speer's site:
http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/ammo.aspx
No, the .45 is going make a slightly bigger hole.
0.05" to be exact, if neither round expands at all.
And with equal expansion the holes will remain very close in size.
Sure, I never said otherwise.
But, as I have been saying, to see a real advantage over the .40, the .45 must resort to a longer barrel and +P loads.
Which is exactly what the data I have provided indicates.
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valorius
member
Split hairs much?
No bowling pin has ever tried to attack me.
Everyone i know that uses a .357 magnum uses 125gr JHPs. Based on it's legendary reputation, why would you carry anything else? (trail scenarios or hunting excluded). The round is considered to be so effective, and was so popular that the .357 sig was specifically designed to mimic it's ballistics.
I have never, ever met anyone that carried 180gr .357 mag for personal defense (against people), and i have never met anyone that used "Full house" heavyweight loads either. Though, i am sure there are some out there, they are the definite minority IMO. Certainly when the police forces used them 125gr and 158gr loads that were considerably short of max pressure ruled the day.
I think any of those would work extremely well.
You seem to have a very simplistic view of things my friend. "There's no such thing as 40+P, there's no such thing as 'full house' loads, a .45 is only .05 bigger than a .40"
From the DT chart i listed:
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1275fps - 13.00" / .76"
.19" is a huge difference in expansion, and 2.25" penetration is a huge difference too.
+P is a marketing term in most calibers and it only means the load is loaded hotter than normal. Most US ammo is loaded to very anemic standards. So "full house" or "+P" really just mean "hot load" in most calibers.
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bdb benzino
Member
I do not think it would be less effective either! My point is it is more of a personal choice, and to state that half the agencies in the USA choose this because of a marketing gimick, and not because of actual inteligent thinking is rediculious and biased.
My father was a state policman for over 30 years. Last year he gave me a "one shot stop data sheet" compiled of police agencies and fedral agencies as well. In that data sheet the 40S&W was a little more effective than 9mm, and barely less effective than 45acp or 10mm. A good hollowpoint bullet in any of the major calibers is going to be very effective and is not worth arguing about the differences. IMHO someone who sets out to down talk any of the major calibers has a personal agenda, and something against it personally. When things get personal it clouds peoples ability to rationally discuss the matter at hand.
Cards81fan
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That's what I pointed out what the OK Dept. of Corrections manuals states in post #94. Sounds as if they don't care what you carry, .357 or 9mm or .40. They don't even tell you what gun; carry a Smith revolver, or a Glock or "equivalent" (I imagine an XD, M&P, Walther p99, or other striker-fired pistol).
Sounds like they want you to carry what you want, and what you are good with What a concept!
The 9mm loads of the 1980's were not the loads available today. I think that the 40 offered a big advantage when it first came on the market in 1990. Bullets have come a long way since then.
A modern 124gr 9mm at around 1200 fps is about as effective as anything else.
A modern 124gr 9mm at around 1200 fps is about as effective as anything else.
easyg
Member
How much do you want to bet that those rounds were fired from barrels of differing lengths?
I'll be the .45 was fired from a 5" barrel while the .40 was fired from a 4" barrel.
Which would make the data biased toward the .45.
That's not science.
Fire them both from equal length barrels and then tell the difference.
valorius
member
Agreed.
However, marketing is a very real part of your every day life, every aspect of it. Everything you own, everything you see, everything you buy....marketers are trying to control you, to influence you, to get your money.
Do not believe for even one second that marketing is not a huuuuuge part of the firearms biz, whether it be the military, police, or civilian market.
+P ammo in most calibers is a perfect example of this, really. So is the term "magnum."
valorius
member
The original test results were posted first here on THR. Search the archive, the pistols used for all testing are listed.
Performance in the .90+" caliber expansion range is fairly common for modern .45 acp JHP, btw. It is also completely unheard of in .40S&W loads.
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easyg
Member
Exactly!
easyg
Member
Been there, done that.
This isn't the first time I've seen that data.
And yes, the .45's were shot from a longer 5" barrel than all the other calibers tested.
Look it up yourself if you doubt me.
valorius
member
So you think 1" of barrel is going to account for a massive .19" difference in expansion and another 2.5" of penetration, eh?
If anything, the added velocity would reduce penetration.
PS: I don't have to look it up....i posted the list and the link. Twice! lol.....
PSS: Other rounds where tested using a 5" bbl too.
If anything, the added velocity would reduce penetration.
PS: I don't have to look it up....i posted the list and the link. Twice! lol.....
PSS: Other rounds where tested using a 5" bbl too.
easyg
Member
When it comes to caliber/platform selection by police agencies, the writing is on the wall for the 9mm and the .45ACP.
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valorius
member
The writing on the wall says that the 9mm is, worldwide, by far the #1 caliber in military, police, and self defense use today, and will be for the forseeable future, probably until we invent ray guns.
At which time we'll argue about those.
At which time we'll argue about those.
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