Holder and the Feds sued Over MCDV Lifetime Ban; Litigated By Donald Kilmer

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anthonyca

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The Madison Society is suing Eric Holder and the feds over the lifetime federal ban on "domestic violence" misdemeanants. People who know about this issue know just how easy it is to become prohibited due to one of these convictions.

The infamous Lautenberg amendment.

The case is Enos V Holder.
http://madison-society.org/laws/litigation.htm
 
This case is about being federally prohibited, not not state-utory? prohibited.
Aka, they had their rights restored, but got denied by NCIS.

If you are conv. of misd. Domestic, and have not been pardoned, etc, then this case will not apply to you.

At least thats how I read it.
 
The interesting thing about the Lautenberg amendment is that it instantly took away the gun rights of thousands of people with misdemeanor convictions stretching back years... Unconstitutional, much???
 
Good. Even if this is fairly limited, at least let there be some kind of logic to it. As the OP said, I think someone who has never sat through some of the domestic trials I've seen or heard of would be absolutely shocked by how easily and carelessly a court will convict someone of DV. One guy used a non-THR word to his fiancee in front of a police officer when he was angry at her, bam a DV conviction. Another guy was breaking up with a girl, she refused to leave his house, was just standing in the doorway, and he tossed some water at her so he could shut the door. DV assault, no more second amendment.



I think a major part of the problem is that our assault laws are set up to have such a wildly melodramatic threshold that you literally cannot avoid committing an 'assault' in the course of your day to day life unless you are a hermit. Any contact of any kind with someone fits the legal definition of an assault, and these charges don't require any evidence at all for a conviction. That by itself is problematic and troubling, but to give charges like that the ability to strip a person's constitutional rights is something worse.
 
This case is about being federally prohibited, not not state-utory? prohibited.
Aka, they had their rights restored, but got denied by NCIS.

If you are conv. of misd. Domestic, and have not been pardoned, etc, then this case will not apply to you.

At least thats how I read it.
This is a strong 10th amendment state rights argument. California and other states specifically specify the amount of time one looses gun rights for a MINOR crime. The also issue expungement but the Feds are illegally ignoring these measures.

Wyoming sued the Feds stating that they issued an expungement specifically so the man could own firearms and the Feds said no. This is bigger than California and a very important case the constitution.

I believe we need to support this case.
 
Tough you have DV conviction. Don't have a problem with these folks not being able to possess firearms legally ever. Rather err on the side of caution.
You dont beat your kids or your partner. You walk away. If he or she is wailing away on you you walk away.

Yeah I know some guys and the instances are very rare get wrongly convicted of DV but oh well in this case I dont have a problem with a very, very few innocent people not being able to possess firearms ever.

Have no tolerance for DV and back when I was on active duty if you committed the crime you went to a court martial and were punished to the full extent of the UCMJ when you fell under my command. No slaps on the wrist. No masts.

A man never strikes a woman he is involved with.
 
You do not have to strike anyone to get a DV.

Anyone who says they have no problem with a few innocent people being wrongly persecuted for the safety of others is not a good American in my opinion. What about the oath we took as service members?

I am on my phone and about to start work but I can show case law that shows the vast majority of people who have children or have been in a relationship have committed " domestic violence".
 
Don't have a problem with these folks not being able to possess firearms legally ever. Rather err on the side of caution.

If you'd rather "err on the side of caution," then why let ANYONE have ANY firearm EVER?

I mean, if we simply banned all guns, there would be no more gun crime ... right? Problem solved!
 
VAherder you don't have to touch someone to get convicted of a DV. If you have any physical contact with someone, ANY at all, and they decide they don't care for you much, you can be charged with assault. The only difference between an assault and a domestic is some kind of relationship, or having lived together. It's scary because you do not have to do anything that even resembles violence to wind up charged and convicted of a DV assault.


Part of the problem is that people who aren't familiar with the laws and legal system, don't understand how extraordinarily low the threshold for being charged with this very serious crime is. It's not like people being charged with domestics are going to trial against witnesses who saw them hit their significant other or are going and having pictures of the alleged victims shown, there are people being convicted on purely because-she-said-he-did-it reasons, and a large amount of those are women who know how simple it is to ruin the guy's life with a DV charge.

I have a couple of friends who were being hit by their ladyfriends, never swung back, people saw the whole thing, and it was the guy who got arrested and charged anyway.

There are endemic problems in the way we handle domestic violence cases that are leading to massive amounts of abuse, and people are losing their rights and being stigmatized heavily over an incredibly flawed system. Meanwhile people I know who very much are abusers mostly don't end up ever being reported or if they do, before they are even out of jail their ladyfriend is writing to the DA asking to have the no contact order dropped so they can come home again. It's ridiculous.
 
Yes I am familar with laws regarding Domestic Violence in VA, MD and DC and the Federal statutes

I have had to make the decision to proceed with charges etc numerous times.
I have had sailor's and officer's spouse's claim they were beat up when their husbands were at the range or in training with me. D*mn hard to beat your ______ if you are tied to a chair and being roughed up yourself. Time the incident occured we had just tazed the poor fool and he was cleaning himself up. I know because I had just received similar treatment and was changing my Winnie the Pooh boxers. I have had dependent spouses beat the crap out themselves or run into walls etc to thump up charges.

I have had service members under my command lie and try to BS me that no they didnt beat the crap out of their partner. I also got a 200 am call when my XO at the Pentagon got home drunk and went into rage beat his wifey so bad the poor woman is still confined to a bed on feeding tubes etc. I was CO for less then a week. I did research and checked logs etc and found he had a history of DV and alcohol problems since he was a Plebe at the USNA. Good ole boys network took care of him for over 15years. He is still serving his time and has about 5 years left. He claimed self defense. Scum had no marks on him. He does have marks now from what I hear. Got himself tat with the name of his daddy and worked so hard being a good prison wife that tax payers had to pay for some reconstructive work so he could maintain control of his functions.

Sorry soceity still doesnt treat the victims of DV fairly. When they do we can talk about removing the lifetime ban for DV.
 
I err on the side of freedom. I get heckled in here for supporting the ban on felons owning guns. The problem with lautenberg is, it can take what may have been a very minor altercation which may or may not have been physical depending on a state's laws, or physical yet very minor in nature, such as forcing someone to sit down, and gives it the SAME ban as a felony assault. For life.

And yes, it absolutely is an ex-post facto law.
 
Tough you have DV conviction. Don't have a problem with these folks not being able to possess firearms legally ever. Rather err on the side of caution.
You dont beat your kids or your partner. You walk away. If he or she is wailing away on you you walk away.

Yeah I know some guys and the instances are very rare get wrongly convicted of DV but oh well in this case I dont have a problem with a very, very few innocent people not being able to possess firearms ever.

Have no tolerance for DV and back when I was on active duty if you committed the crime you went to a court martial and were punished to the full extent of the UCMJ when you fell under my command. No slaps on the wrist. No masts.

A man never strikes a woman he is involved with.

WOOOOAAH buddy. I have a HUGE problem with even ONE innocent person being stripped of their rights. I'd rather have a THOUSAND wife beaters go free than one innocent man go to prison.

The judicial system isn't about convicting bad guys, it's about preventing wrongful conviction of good guys.

You really have no concept of what can be claimed as DV these days do you?
 
You do realize that in some states the victim is whoever called the police first right? No matter what the other person says they arrest them. Even if that person has marks. My fiancee fell victim to this in a previous relationship. She was beaten and she slapped him, he called the police and she was arrested. She had marks, he didn't. She was on the other side of the country from her family (who couldn't send her any real financial support) and had to either stay there with the abusive man waiting for trial or plead guilty to get away. She plead guility and got the heck out of there. The judge saw what was going on and set her up for an expungment. She lucked out on that.

Point is, unless you're really lucky DV laws can screw you over.

All of this "er on the safe side", "protect the victims", etc etc makes it to where it just hurts more people. The more restrictions, stipulations, and so on you put on a law the more innocent people get hurt.

Being okay with an innocent person stripped of their rights is not something I am okay with. Nor does it seem very American to sacrifice a few for the "safety" of many.

I'd support lifting this ban all together, but then again I'm just a regular citizen. Not an elite.
 
What about the oath we took as service members?

I agree with that 100%

The problem with DV though it is roughly the same as me telling a cop that you were speeding and now you can't drive anymore. Where is the Due Process Outlined in the 4th? IMHO this flies in the face of that oath.

WOOOOAAH buddy. I have a HUGE problem with even ONE innocent person being stripped of their rights.

Yes! The aforementioned Oath should give us a reason to have a problem with this even if we did not already feel this way.

I believe we need to support this case.

I agree with that too.
 
You do not have to strike anyone to get a DV.

Very true. You do not have to hit anyone to get a misdemeanor level DV criminal conviction. If there's an actual beating, it's likely to be felony assault. DV statutes frequently turn on the level of "fear" you allegedly caused. Very vague stuff, full of potential for abuse. Which is why they're typically just misdemeanors with fines or small sentences. Yet the feds treat them as felonies.

The only safe route is to end whatever relationship you're in and stop dating entirely. The risks aren't worth it. Not even close.
 
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Sorry soceity still doesnt treat the victims of DV fairly.
Agreed. I know two guys who can't touch firearms because of bogus DV charges that the state pursued when the respective plaintiffs confessed to filing false charges. Those two innocent victims of the current legal system never had a FAIR chance, and they are prohibited from exercising their rights.

The guilty parties didn't receive their fair justice either. They walked free.
 
I agree. There are plenty of states and cases where people have been jammed with nonsense DV charges. Some states stack the odds against the defendant and leave them with little choice but to accept a misdemeanor DV charge than fight a bogus felony.
 
You really have no concept of what can be claimed as DV these days do you?

SN13 I'm going to give a big second to this. Many people just have no clue how easy it is for a person to have their entire life destroyed by a legal system that takes the concept of "violence" to outrageous extremes, and prosecutes all of them equally vigorously, even where they can see the "victim" is full of something other than integrity and honesty.


The only safe route is to end whatever relationship you're in and stop dating entirely. The risks aren't worth it. Not even close.

Cosmoline this is a little bit of hyperbole I'm thinking but it is sadly very close to true. The only way to protect yourself from a significant other blowing a gasket and deciding to get even with you the cop way is to never have a significant other. Personally I am going to stop seeing any girl who seems to have any kind of anger problem, or shows the slightest tendency to call the police for anything less than someone being murdered in front of her, and I will be giving up on relationships for even minor disagreements. She ever raises her voice, I'm out. It just isn't worth it for some companionship.


Agreed. I know two guys who can't touch firearms because of bogus DV charges that the state pursued when the respective plaintiffs confessed to filing false charges. Those two innocent victims of the current legal system never had a FAIR chance, and they are prohibited from exercising their rights.

CoRoMo about the time you sit in a courtroom and watch someone get convicted of allegedly punching his significant other in the mouth, hard, without a single piece of photographic or medical evidence presented, with the police officers who responded testifying that she didn't have a single bit of redness or bruising on her, though she claimed that eight months later she was in physical therapy for loss of mobility in her jaw, you have to understand that the system is entirely broken.

Seriously, this woman claimed to have been punched hard in the mouth, and to have lost 50% mobility in her jaw, but neither of the police officers could find any evidence at all that anybody was assaulted, there was no medical evidence or doctor's note, nothing. I have seen a couple of fights, but I've never seen an adult male punch someone in the face without leaving so much as some redness. And I've never heard of someone having a long-term injury from an assault without any short term obvious soft tissue damage.
 
I agree. There are plenty of states and cases where people have been jammed with nonsense DV charges. Some states stack the odds against the defendant and leave them with little choice but to accept a misdemeanor DV charge than fight a bogus felony.


I've met people who were arrested and charged with a DV because their ladyfriend was yelling at them and the neighbors called police over it, ladyfriend didn't want charges pressed for him upsetting her, yet the DA decides to prosecute anyway, and they are put in a position where they are not allowed home or to speak to the woman they are still in a consenting relationship with until the case is resolved, so they plead out because it is easier.

It's an aggravating situation we have. The people who are truly victims of domestic violence frequently do not receive or want any help to get out of the relationship, men who are the victims of an abusive relationship are not taken seriously at all until Lorena Bobbit wanna-bes end up hospitalizing or killing them, and vengeful, emotionally unbalanced women have an extremely powerful weapon at their constant disposal that will remove the object of their hatred, along with transferring at least for the short term all of his property to her, and ruins his life and stigmatizes him for the rest of his life.

It only takes the few days he waits to be bailed out of jail to sell off all of his valuable property, and the months before he finally sees trial and a judge can 'let' him get his stuff back is plenty of time to give away or sell his less valuable belongings.
 
Not just convictions. My mother accused my father during a bitter divorce. She had moved out, he was still living in the house and she wanted him out so she could move back in. She went over and called the police on her cell, accusing my father of chasing her with a knife. Dad was 70 at the time, with bad knees. It took him 20 minutes to get down the driveway to check the mail. They still arrested him and took him to jail, even though the officer stated that he didn't believe the allegation for a minute. Since the accusation involved a weapon they couldn't take the chance. Dad got arrested, Mom moved back in the same night. The judge released Dad on his own recognizance, but issued a restraining order. He couldn't even go home to get his stuff. The State's Attorney declined to prosecute, so Dad has been stuck with this on his record ever since. If they prosecuted and acquitted, it would go away. Since he was charged but never indicted, it stays and there's nothing we can do about it. At the time, Dad was supplementing his retirement with substitute teaching (he was a retired teacher). Can't do that with an arrest for Domestic Violence. The laws are bent.

John
 
Most of society, including many posting here, misunderstand the legal definition of "assault" as it exists in most states.
An assault involves no physical contact.
Two men getting into the face of one another during an argument, but never touching for example would often be an assault.
Assault is the threat of force, or perceived threat of force, without any actual force used.

Actual physical contact is a "battery" an entirely different charge, and what most of society including the media erroneously calls an "assault".


Most of the population under the legal definition assaults other people at some point during some argument, they simply are not prosecuted for it unless it is serious or involves a weapon.
They argue forcefully enough to cause someone else or the person they are arguing with to feel intimidated. That is an assault. No physical contact.
The difference with domestic situations is state law in many states mandates prosecution for any domestic violence, so even scenarios so petty that they would never result in charges when involving most people are prosecuted when they involve spouses, boyfriend/girlfriend, or ex spouse/ex boyfriend/grilfriend.
This means someone is often prosecuted for domestic violence for things so petty they would have never resulted in charges or an arrest involving anyone else.






However even batteries resulting in conviction can be minor. A man grabbing a wife or girlfriend's wrists while she is throwing a violent tantrum until she calms down for example.
That is likely to result in bruises on the wrist with the pressure necessary to keep them from pulling away, and as a result create clear evidence for prosecution.

Women also bruise much easier than men, as anyone that knows athletic women can attest to. Your typical athletic woman gets covered in bruises that men involved in the same activities never get.
There is even a scientific explanation I won't go into for this.
What this means however is even when a woman is the aggressor, she will often have the bruises and resulting "evidence" used for conviction. Just pushing (a battery) a woman attacking you away will likely result in bruising. Blocking a punch or slap is likely to leave a serious bruise on her arm while her strikes will often leave no clear evidence on a male.
In most situations, whether it is the man or the woman who is the aggressor, even in situations where the man only tries to minimize damage and never strikes, it is the woman that will have the marks, the evidence used to convict the other during prosecution.





This while society and the media actually encourages spiteful violence and property damage by angry or scorned women, or those whose honor has been insulted.
The slap to a man's face (battery) is still common in movies and television and even portrayed as ladylike.
Damaging property of a partner is encouraged in movies, television shows, and song.
Popular songs win grammys with a chorus like "Cause I dug my key into the side of his pretty little souped up 4 wheel drive,
carved my name into his leather seats...
I took a Louisville slugger to both head lights,
slashed a hole in all 4 tires..."

We have a society encouraging violence and property damage if done by women, yet laws that remove a guaranteed right for life for even trying to stop such things, or even arguing verbally with no physical contact in too intimidating a fashion.
 
In some states physical contact isn't even required. In one state I lived in 5th degree domestic assault occurred if your partner "felt" threatened by what you said. If you yelled in anger and said, "Sometimes I just want to slap you" and your partner filed charges claiming he/she felt threatened you could be convicted. I'm not sure it would be punishable of up to a year but there it is anyhow.

Edit: Here it is. In Minnesota. Your second offense would be punishable of up to a year and would put your rights in jeapordy.

"A fifth degree assault is a misdemeanor if it is a first offense punishable by up to a 90 days in jail and/or a $1000 fine. A fifth degree assault may be charged if a person

1. commits an act with intent to cause fear in another of immediate bodily harm or death; or
2. intentionally inflicts or attempts to inflict bodily harm upon another.

A second offense on the same victim within five years following discharge from the sentence on the first offense may be charged with a gross misdemeanor and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than one year and to payment of a fine of not more than $3,000.

If convicted of a second fifth degree assault after August 1, 1992, that person may no longer own or possess a pistol. Any person who possesses a pistol in violation of this paragraph is guilty of a gross misdemeanor."

I'm a believer in the fact denying someone's right to own a firearm is NOT going to end DV or save lives.
 
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jon_in_wv said:
In some states physical contact isn't even required. In one state I lived in 4th degree domestic assault occurred if your partner "felt" threatened by what you said. If you yelled in anger and said, "Sometimes I just want to slap you" and your partner filed charges claiming he/she felt threatened you could be convicted. I'm not sure it would be punishable of up to a year but there it is anyhow.

In most states no physical contact is required, as I posted above you an assault is by definition something that involved no physical contact. If there was physical contact it would be a battery.
So by definition a domestic assault involves no touching of the other person.


Whether it is punishable by up to a year makes no difference under current federal law either, domestic violence misdemeanors are what the prohibition refers to, if the charge was a felony it would have already been a prohibiting offense as a felony without the Lautenberg legislation.

That is one of the big farces, most wife beaters as seen in media would already be committing felony attacks and prohibited without Lautenberg legislation. Severely beating someone is aggravated battery in many jurisdictions, or a similar charge that can be charged as a felony.
So someone repeatedly beating their wife, or beating them seriously enough one time could already be charged with a felony and prohibited from owning guns.
Lautenberg specifically includes less serious offenses that wouldn't already meet the felony prohibition.
 
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