Holding someone at gunpoint for Police?

[usmarine0352_2005]

.

What's his chance of winning this?


Isn't holding someone at gunpoint considered "kidnapping"? (Even though he was holding them for police, they weren't allowed to leave.)



http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,490084,00.html

Arizona Rancher Who Stopped Illegal Immigrants at Border Now Fighting $32 Million Lawsuit

Monday, February 09, 2009

An Arizona man who has waged a 10-year campaign to stop a flood of illegal immigrants from crossing his property is being sued by 16 Mexican nationals — seeking $32 million in damages — who accuse him of conspiring to violate their civil rights when he stopped them at gunpoint on his ranch on the U.S.-Mexico border, the Washington Times reported Monday.

The rancher, Roger Barnett, 64, began rounding up illegal immigrants in 1998 and turning them over to the U.S. Border Patrol after they destroyed his property, killed his calves and broke into his home, the newspaper reported.

The lawsuit is based on a March 7, 2004, incident in a dry wash on the 22,000-acre ranch, when he approached a group of illegal immigrants while carrying a gun and accompanied by a large dog.

Attorneys for the immigrants — five women and 11 men who were trying to cross illegally into the United States — have accused Barnett of holding the group captive at gunpoint, threatening to turn his dog loose on them and saying he would shoot anyone who tried to escape.

His Cross Rail Ranch near Douglas, Ariz., is known by federal and county law enforcement authorities as "the avenue of choice" for immigrants seeking to enter the United States illegally, the newspaper reports.

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[MachIVshooter]

Citizens arrest. If only a few more folks had his fortitude.

Anything else I'd say on this matter isn't very high road, so I'll leave it at that.

 

[mljdeckard]

If it's in a federal court, it will be tougher. In a local court, he might stand a chance.

 

[mgkdrgn]

They can sue him because they don't like the way he parts his hair ... doesn't mean they will collect anything.

 

[Travis Bickle]

Isn't holding someone at gunpoint considered "kidnapping"?

Arizona law explicitly allows one to make a citizen's arrest for any felony or for a misdemeanor which disturbs the public peace, provided that the arrestor personally witnessed the offense occurring.

Trespassing is usually a misdemeanor in Arizona, and I have no idea whether or not it is considered to disturb the public peace.

In any case, kidnapping is usually a state criminal matter and this case is a federal civil case, so it may have little or no bearing that Barnett was not in violation of the state criminal code. Note that Barnett is not being sued for kidnapping, but for "conspiring to violate their civil rights," whatever the frick that means.

 

[Rezin]

I hope he comes out scott-free........... In that situation, *I* think he did what needed to be done.....

 

[X-Rap]

Sadly they would also probably win if they didn't like the way he parted his hair.
We have gone a long way in giving up our countrys sovereignty and our own personal rights and case history could be a flip of the coin in similar cases.

 

[Jeff White]

The first post about immigration policy and this thread is done. You will confine the discussion to what constitutes a citizen's arrest in Arizona and if and under what circumstances one can take someone into custody and hold them for the police.

I have never seen a citizen's arrest law that afforded the citizen the same civil tort protection as a peace officer has under the law.

 

[psyopspec]

How does an ILLEGAL have CIVIL rights in the united states?

Not to say the system isn't horribly abused, but legal or illegal, EVERYONE has CIVIL rights. Philosophically speaking, the COTUS and BOR just identifies that which is inherent to human existence.

 

[WardenWolf]

They'll never win this one in an Arizona court. I guarantee that. Arizona is highly anti-illegal.

One thing society needs to wake up and realize is that illegal immigrants are, on their face, dishonest. They're here ILLEGALLY, after all, and are trying to steal something they have not earned while pretending (lying) that they belong here. It should go like this, "Okay, you're here illegally. Your actions in coming here illegally have already established that you're a pathological liar. You'll be handed over to ICE for deportation. Next!"

 

[X-Rap]

As you say Jeff I don't believe that he will have success unless he can show he was in danger, then he will need to show that the danger remained present if the trespassers left his presence.

 

[Jeff White]

Trespassing is a misdemeanor in Arizona, but I have no idea whether or not it is considered to disturb the public peace.

I haven't seen the Arizona statute but I doubt that trespass on a ranch out in the middle of nowhere would be considered a breach of the public peace.

In any case, kidnapping is usually a state criminal matter and this case is a federal civil case, so it may have little or no bearing that Barnett was not in violation of the state criminal code.

Kidnapping is a federal offense, it has been since the Lindberg kidnapping in the 30s. But I don't think kidnapping would apply. Here we have a state law against "Unlawful Restraint". If Arizona has a similar law, that might apply. People violate state and federal criminal codes all the time and aren't charged for it. That isn't anything unusual.

The thing to be aware of if you are going to detain someone against their will for the police is that while your actions may have been legal under the law that permits a citizen's arrest, you don't have any civil tort protection. The law grants peace officers and other public officials protection from civil action for legal actions they take in the course of their duties. Private citizens have no such protection. Even if your detention of a person was legal and permitted under the criminal code, you have no protection against any civil claims that may arise from those actions. If the person you detained wants to sue you for mental and emotional stress and a lifetime of treatment for PTSD because looking into the barrel of your gun made the detainee feel he was staring into the gates of hell and is now traumatized for life, and a jury decides to buy off on that, guess what? If the jury wants you to pay a few million in punitive damages so you never put anyone through that again, then guess what.

That's just one reason why it's often not the best idea to make a citizen's arrest.

 

[cbrgator]

Isn't holding someone at gunpoint considered "kidnapping"? (Even though he was holding them for police, they weren't allowed to leave.)

No, this would not be kidnapping. If anything, it would be false imprisonment. As far as who will win, there are too may unknowns to make an educated guess. I don't know what rights illegal immigrants are entitled to in Arizona nor what laws govern citizen's encounters with them.

 

[Travis Bickle]

Kidnapping is a federal offense

Kidnapping is only a federal offense in certain rare circumstances, and none of those apply here:

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title9/crm01034.htm

The thing to be aware of if you are going to detain someone against their will for the police is that while your actions may have been legal under the law that permits a citizen's arrest, you don't have any civil tort protection. The law grants peace officers and other public officials protection from civil action for legal actions they take in the course of their duties. Private citizens have no such protection. Even if your detention of a person was legal and permitted under the criminal code, you have no protection against any civil claims that may arise from those actions. If the person you detained wants to sue you for mental and emotional stress and a lifetime of treatment for PTSD because looking into the barrel of your gun made the detainee feel he was staring into the gates of hell and is now traumatized for life, and a jury decides to buy off on that, guess what? If the jury wants you to pay a few million in punitive damages so you never put anyone through that again, then guess what.

In Arizona state law bars anyone from suing for injuries sustained as a result of committing a criminal offense. However, in most cases, I still think a citizen's arrest is a lot more trouble than it's worth and it's better to let the cops handle it.

The bottom line is that even if Barnett didn't do anything illegal, it was still stupid and a whole lot more trouble than it was worth.

 

[Jeff White]

In Arizona state law bars anyone from suing for injuries sustained as a result of committing a criminal offense.

Is trespassing a criminal offense in Arizona? Or does it take certain circumstances to make it one? There is always a way to be sued. All it takes is convincing the judge that the person you want to sue committed such misconduct that he shouldn't be protected by the law and the suit goes forward. Or there is the federal court option that was used here. I think too many people take too much comfort from laws that supposedly protect them from lawsuits. The NYC suit against all those gun dealers didn't go away after the Lawful Commerce in Firearms Act was passed. All they had to do was find a judge who'd admit it. We should remember that example.

 

[FRANK D]

Holding someone at gun point

What they are trying to do is hit him in the pocket. Even if its just for legal costs with the hopes that he will leave them alone in the future.

 

[TexasRifleman]

You are all talking about any potential CRIMINAL laws he might have broken. It's clear the state doesn't think he has or he would have been arrested a long time ago. Or maybe they just decided to ignore it.

Regardless, this is a civil suit, and he's likely to lose. Don't really see how he can win. The burden of proof is so much lower in civil matters.

I don't think he was wrong personally, but this is going to be very expensive.

 

[wyocarp]

who accuse him of conspiring to violate their civil rights

That's news to me. I didn't think they had any legal rights.

 

[alaskanativeson]

My original post was not appropriate for THR.

 

[cbrgator]

....

 

[MovedWest]

Is trespassing a criminal offense in Arizona?

who accuse him of conspiring to violate their civil rights when he stopped them at gunpoint on his ranch on the U.S.-Mexico border, the Washington Times reported Monday.

If his ranch is up against the Mexico/US border, coming into his property would've been the criminal offense. At that point they will not be able to sue for damages.

began rounding up illegal immigrants in 1998 and turning them over to the U.S. Border Patrol after they destroyed his property, killed his calves and broke into his home

This type of behavior is definitely disturbing the peace, but admittedly these people were not noted as having done any of the above. The court may have leniency on him based on prior episodes though.

Either way you slice it, a citizen's arrest is asking for it.

-MW

 

[Maintainer]

"The bottom line is that even if Barnett didn't do anything illegal, it was still stupid and a whole lot more trouble than it was worth."


Its one thing to hold a couple of kids gunpoint for cutting across your back yard at night (my own reference) but this is a all together different matter. He has substantial case history to point to of theft, property damage, etc. Not to mention Arizona's Castle Doctrine. Which should be enough, but then this is a civil matter.

It's a sad state of affairs that this beautiful country has fallen into.

 

[limpingbear]

If these people were handed over to INS and were then deported how are they able to sue him in the u.s.? What kind of attorney would take this kind of case? Doesn't the fact that the mexican nationals in crossing the border illegally and trespassing on this guys property forfiet thier right to sue?

Sorry if it sounds like a rant, but i'm just ticked that something like this is allowed to happen.

 

[Jeff White]

He has substantial case history to point to of theft, property damage, etc. Not to mention Arizona's Castle Doctrine.

Does Arizona's Castle Doctrine extend to fences and stock tanks?

 

[Travis Bickle]

Is trespassing a criminal offense in Arizona?

Trespassing is by definition a criminal offense.

Or does it take certain circumstances to make it one?

In Arizona, a person must be first be given reasonable notice that they are trespassing. This means either posting your land in accordance with state law, or ordering a person or persons to leave and not come back.

We don't know, but I'm guessing Barnett isn't stupid and had his land posted before he pulled this stunt.

Not to mention Arizona's Castle Doctrine.

Arizona's castle law applies to housebreakers, not trespassers. You may use the threat of lethal force against trespassers, but not lethal force itself. If you ever shoot someone who's trespassing on your land, and said person did not pose an imminent threat to life or limb, you'll be in deep trouble.