Illegal Immigrants vs. Citizens' Arrest

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Border incident interests citizens' group
By Louie Villalobos, Staff Writer
Aug 12, 2003

http://yumasun.com/artman/publish/articles/story_6677.shtml

Using the Yuma case of two men arrested for allegedly holding illegal immigrants at gunpoint as its coming-out party, a newly formed citizens' group is promising to sue two Yuma County departments and come to Arizona with an "army" ready to patrol the Mexican border.

Keith French, spokesman for the newly incorporated U.S. Special Service, said his Missouri-based organization intends to sue the Yuma County Sheriff's Office and the Yuma County Attorney's Office for what he called the unlawful arrest and detention of Matthew Hoffman and Alexander Dumas.

"We have adopted these men," French said.

Both men are accused of detaining six illegal immigrants at gunpoint July 31 in Gadsden until U.S. Border Patrol agents arrived.

Each is facing six counts of aggravated assault, five counts of unlawful imprisonment and one count of conspiracy to commit unlawful imprisonment following the incident.

In an e-mailed declaration sent to the county attorney's office, the sheriff's office and The Sun, the U.S. Special Service accuses both departments of violating the suspects' civil rights by arresting them for doing something permitted by the law.

"People are allowed to arrest someone they see commit a crime," French said. "And entering illegally is a crime."

French said the use of handcuffs and guns on the illegal immigrants by Hoffman and Dumas falls under justification for use of force in defense of property.

Though officials said the area where the incident occurred — County 18th Street and the Colorado River — is technically federal property, French contends the entire United States is the property of every American, which makes it legal for citizens to defend it against "the invasion of illegal immigrants."

A statement released Monday by Sheriff Ralph Ogden states he recognizes the frustrations surrounding current immigration policies and said citizens may assist in the apprehension of anyone violating the law.

But the statement goes one to "warn any individual assuming that responsibility that such arrests must be done in accordance with applicable state and federal laws and that failure to do so may result in their being charged with a violation of the law."

The department has said that detaining someone against their will, even if they have broken the law, is illegal and goes beyond what a citizen's arrest allows.

French said his organization had been looking at federal laws regarding private citizens' patrols when Hoffman and Dumas were arrested, and said the case is the perfect one for his group to announce itself with.

He said his group plans to help family members with the defense of their loved ones, but is urging both the county attorney's office and the sheriff's office to drop the charges and release Hoffman and Dumas. If not, French said his organization will seek alternative means to have the men freed.

"Sometimes you've got to fight fire with fire," he said. "They can take that however the hell they want."

A second demand in the e-mailed declaration is the resignation of Yuma County Attorney Patricia Orozco, who French said is pursuing the case because her Hispanic descent has caused her to take the incident personally.

For her part, Orozco said that her office pursuing the case has nothing to do with her Hispanic heritage and everything to do with the law. She said her staff didn't do anything different on this case than it has in previous cases or will do with future ones.

"Our standard is whether there is a reasonable likelihood of a conviction at trial," she said. "We found that there was sufficient evidence for us to bring charges and we did."

Also targeted by French's group are the illegal immigrants that cross through Arizona on a daily basis. French said he intends to bring an "army" to the Arizona-Mexico border in the near future that will be armed and ready to detain illegal immigrants.

He said plans are in the works for the group to come to the Arizona border and tour the area for possible locations for a base camp. French said the camp will most likely be in the Tucson area but that he intends to visit Yuma to check on the Hoffman-Dumas case and illegal immigrant activity.

Unlike the other citizens' group working near Tucson — which tends to stay on private land — French said his organization will also patrol federal land and public property. Yuma County's border with Mexico is largely federal land, officials have said.

"The United States government's land is the people's land," he said. "And we will function on that property."

--
Louie Villalobos can be reached at [email protected] or 539-6858.

© Copyright, YumaSun.com

Well, sportsfans, I knew this situation would kick up some dust. And, IMHO, it's about bloody time. A nation that choses not to defend its borders isn't worthy of being a nation. The illegal immigrant situation in the SW makes the entire idea (not to mention BUDGET) of homeland security a very obvious joke.
:cuss:
 
Frankly if I was going to arrest anyone I'd round up every farmer in California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas and anywhere else who employs illegals. For that matter arrest all the people who hire under-the-table workers from the street corners. If you're going to start declaring war, declare war on the people creating the demand, not on the poor schmucks who are brave enough to cross the border for some more money.
 
Several years ago the INS got frisky and decided to do some work place enforcement in Vidalea Georga. Seems the onion growers employed copious quantities of "undocumented migrants."

INS swooped down and rounded up the bad guys.

Farmers made a few phone calls.

"Undocumented migrants" were promptly back at work.

Until that crap stops nothing will be done. What you have to watch Bush // Rove on is their desire to make 'em legal so they can start payng US social security tax.

Makes me mad enought to chew nails.
 
Who is going to do the agricultural work?

American citizens aren't going to do hard farm labor for those wages.

Maybe prisoners?

Maybe they can kick out all the hard working illegals and raise the price of lettuce to 10 dollars a head.
 
Keith French, spokesman for the newly incorporated U.S. Special Service, said his Missouri-based organization intends to sue the Yuma County Sheriff's Office and the Yuma County Attorney's Office for what he called the unlawful arrest and detention of Matthew Hoffman and Alexander Dumas.

"I tell you, Rosa, that I shall demolish this prison, stone for stone!"


:D :D
 
French contends the entire United States is the property of every American
Hmmm. I remember making this exact statement on another illegal immigrant thread a few months ago and was thoroughly thrashed for it. FWIW, this guy is right on.

American citizens aren't going to do hard farm labor for those wages.
First, I don't necessarily believe this is true. Second, if all the illegals in this country were working hard and paying taxes, you wouldn't hear any complaints. The fact that you characterize all illegals this way is as much a stereotype as that of the lazt thief. Third, if your statement is true, then farmers need to raise wages and we all need to pay a little more to get our veggies.

Maybe they can kick out all the hard working illegals and raise the price of lettuce to 10 dollars a head.
Anything to back this up?
 
Its a matter of economics.

There are jobs, healthcare, and opprotunities here in the US.

The illegals will keep pouring in as long as the US is a better place to live
than mexico or elsewhere.

Everytime the stakes are raised the alien smugglers redouble their efforts
and charge more for the 140 degree boxcar.

The war against illegal immigration is much like the war on drugs:
corrupt, expensive, dangerous and futile.

An increase in legal immigration quotas with backround checks and due process would be a hell of a lot better than the current system where they get in and sap the healthcare, education system and welfare system without putting anything back.

I sure could use someone to help me take care of my son and help maintain my property but I won't hire illegals and I can't afford anyone else.

The jobs are here and they are not getting done for lack of lower wage workers.
 
The department has said that detaining someone against their will, even if they have broken the law, is illegal and goes beyond what a citizen's arrest allows.
By that standard, the only thing any person witnessing a crime can do is to follow the perpetrator and use the cell phone to zero the authorities in to their position.

Also by that standard, the passengers and stewardesses who tackled Richard Reed, the shoe bomber, committed a crime in his unlawful detention against his will.

These guys have the "We're the professionals" attitude and they are in full CYA mode for job and budget preservation.

Cosmoline
Frankly if I was going to arrest anyone I'd round up every farmer in California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas and anywhere else who employs illegals. For that matter arrest all the people who hire under-the-table workers from the street corners. If you're going to start declaring war, declare war on the people creating the demand, not on the poor schmucks who are brave enough to cross the border for some more money.
Those laws are already in place. Why do you think you have to show two forms of ID when you start a new job? By the way, a foreign national only has to show one form of ID.

jsalcedo
Who is going to do the agricultural work?

American citizens aren't going to do hard farm labor for those wages.

Maybe prisoners?

Maybe they can kick out all the hard working illegals and raise the price of lettuce to 10 dollars a head.
Where you miss the point is through your obvious lack of history.

There used to be a Bracero (pron. Bdah-se`-do) program that allowed Mexican nationals to cross the border for the purposes of doing migrant work on farms. They were paid about $2.00/hr which was, at the time, about fifteen Pesos/hr. That is more than most Mexican doctors earn.

The bleeding hearts decided that the Braceros weren't getting minimum wage which, at the time, was about $3.15/hr (23.63 pesos/hr) I believe. They insisted that the farmers pay the foreign nationals the prevailing minimum wage. The program fell apart, the Mexican nationals had to stay in Mexico instead of coming here legally and earning fifteen Pesos/hr and the illegal immigration numbers began to skyrocket.

THE ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION PROBLEM COULD BE SOLVED OVERNIGHT IF MEXICO WOULD ADOPT THE DOLLAR AS THEIR OFFICIAL CURRENCY. THE ONLY OTHER CURE WOULD BE FOR THE UNITED STATES TO ANNEX MEXICO OR ADOPT THE PESO. FAT CHANCE OF THAT. FAT CHANCE OF EITHER EVER HAPPENING.

The illegals will keep pouring in as long as the US is a better place to live than mexico or elsewhere.
No, they will keep pouring in as long as we allow them to continue and as long as we continue to ignore our own laws.
 
An increase in legal immigration quotas with backround checks and due process would be a hell of a lot better than the current system where they get in and sap the healthcare, education system and welfare system without putting anything back.

I agree with that. I think that the US should TRIPLE the amount of LEGAL immigration allowed yearly....

...and turn the border w/ Mexico into a "no-man's land" where all ILLEGAL invasion (I REFUSE to call it "immigration") is stopped cold...

...period. :evil:
 
Jimpeel.

No, they will keep pouring in as long as we allow them to continue and as long as we continue to ignore our own laws.


Do you think billions more poured into border enforcement or a new Berlin wall across the border will keep illegals out? Who is going to pay for it?

Maybe we can use minefields and nerve gas to dissuade them.

Sounds like you have unwittingly solved the drug problem in this country as well.
 
Who is going to do the agricultural work?
American citizens aren't going to do hard farm labor for those wages.
Even if hueros wanted to work as fruit and vegetable pickers, they couldn't get hired. All of the picking is done by labor provided by labor contractors. The farmer contracts with a contractor who in turn provides the pickers. No way a contractor is going to hire a huero when there are plenty of willing and compliant illegal immigrants willing to do the job.

Pilgrim
 
The illegal immigration issue extends beyond the obvious jobs. Check
light industry in the San Fernando Valley, the stockyards in Chicago,
chicken processing plants in the Southeast, etc., etc.

Meanwhile, no one talks about the impact of all this on American blacks.
Much of the blue-collar and trade work that blacks once had has been
grabbed by Hispanics, mostly illegals, willing to work for sub-standard
wages. While we provide opportunity for one group, we write off another.
There's no social progress in that.

Militarizing the border can't be ruled out but it isn't where we should
start. I prefer to apply the stick to employers doing the illegal
hiring, then to remove the carrot of public benefits. A guest-worker
program makes sense, done right. I would not increase the amount of
legal immigration from Mexico unless Mexico gets the concept of
bilateralism: we need to have more access to investment down south.
 
Cosmoline said.........
If you're going to start declaring war, declare war on the people creating the demand, not on the poor schmucks who are brave enough to cross the border for some more money.
I agree, that's quite true. Regretfully, many don't care if that money used to be yours or mine. A friend of mine works at the County Jail and reports that very nearly half of the population are illegals. Contrary to the wishful liberal notion of "simple people, improving their lives"; many are just criminal opportunists.

The head of the local Border Patrol sector recently made a presentation in which he estimated that they are apprehending 10% of the illegal crossers and fully 10% of those apprehended are known criminals.

With regard to the many comments of the futility of defending the borders, I would suggest that that is not as difficult as it sounds. I recommend you attempt to get into Mexico illegally. You would quickly find that their military, armed and ready, is fully deployed en la frontera. Que este muy bien para ellos, este "un crimen contra derechos civiles para nosotros'.
 
jsalcedo

Do you think billions more poured into border enforcement or a new Berlin wall across the border will keep illegals out? Who is going to pay for it?
The simple placement of the National Guard on the border would take care of the problem.

Maybe we can use minefields and nerve gas to dissuade them.
From the sublime to the ridiculous. You sound like the Liberal hacks we face everyday on the firearms issue who say "Then should everyone be able to own a bazooka or an atomic bomb?"

Sounds like you have unwittingly solved the drug problem in this country as well.
Illegal aliens are not brought over the border in low flying aircraft and cigarette boats. They are also not smuggled molded into plastic toys. They are also not smuggled in car bumpers. They are also not smuggled in spare tires in car trunks. They are also not smuggled stashed in the smuggler's rectum or vagina.

Your arguments are specious and boring as well as snide and condescending. Do you have anything to say that is factual and relevant?
 
Fine each employer $100,000 for every illegal alien on the pay roll. Since the states are always complaining about being broke, let the states do the police work, collect the fines, and keep the money.
 
over population

Overpopulation disaster ahead
By Frosty Woolridge


In the past 10 years, the world has added 880 million people. America has added 30 million and Colorado has added 1.2 million. Today, America stands at 288 million and grows by 3.3 million per year.

In 50 years, the world population will go from 6.2 billion to 9.8 billion. America will add 200 million and Colorado will add 4 million. million. An average of 8,200 people are added to our country every day via annual net gains in U.S. births (1 million) and immigration (2 million) - legal, illegal and their births. Soon past the mid-century, those 200 million more Americans will be fighting over dwindling resources, water and food, and experiencing a diminishing quality of life. A Colorado drought in 2050 would be a disaster with multiple consequences.

For graphic examples, one need only look at India and China. recent speech, Arun Gandhi, grandson of Mahatma, recently said, "In my country, 4 million people are born in the streets, live in the streets and die in the streets - never having used a toilet or shower." If massive population is so good, why is India so poor? Even more sobering is China's plight, with a population of 1.3 billion that increases by 12 million per year.

Overpopulation will become the plague of the 21st century. Where is America headed? Do we want such a legacy for our children? According to "60 Minutes," we have 1 million homeless children struggling in our inner cities today. Why can't we take care of their needs? What will be the fate of another 200 million people who create homeless children?

How many is too many - and when will Americans address that fact? Who possesses the courage to step up to the reality of overpopulation, consumption and pollution in America? in the long term?

No one. Politicians scurry at the mention of population stabilization. Corporations demand larger markets as if nonrenewable resources will appear out of thin air. the future of our children. Wake up! We're like a runaway freight train with no brakes headed toward a rock wall.

The East and West coasts teem with too many people, all striving to deal with escalating water, air and land dilemmas. Deep-water wells - already polluted with industrial chemicals from farmers and manufacturing plants dumping poisons - are drying up. Acid rains pound our lakes with chemicals.

Our cities create thick clouds where millions of children breathe carcinogens. Farmers kill microbes in the soil with fertilizers and pesticides, leaving us with contaminated foods.

Each year, 1.3 million new cancers are detected in our citizens - an epidemic of our own making.

Eleanor Roosevelt said it 50 years ago: "We must prevent human tragedy rather than run around trying to save ourselves after an event has already occurred. Unfortunately, history clearly shows that we arrive at catastrophe by failing to meet the situation, by failing to act when we should have acted. The opportunity passes us by and the next disaster is always more difficult and compounded than the last one."

By failing to act now, what kinds of consequences will we as a nation face when we hit a half billion people? people living in this state. That's 100% more cars, etc. In the US, that's 77% more traffic, 77% added planes in the air, 77% increased pollution, 77% faster uses of already limited resources such as gasoline.

We're paving over 3,000 acres of land each day for homes, roads and malls. In Colorado, we pave 100,000 acres per year. that is a pad of concrete/asphalt 88 square or, from Boulder to Colorado Springs and half way to the Kansas state line. With each new added American, 12.6 acres of wilderness is plowed up to support that person.

In the next 10 years, according to the National Academy of Sciences, 2,500 plants and animals will become extinct in the U.S. because of habitat destruction via population growth. Why aren't we addressing the moral and biological consequences of such horrific extinction rates?

When you add global warming, ocean fisheries collapsing, acid rain, ozone destruction, drought, contaminated water supplies, poisoning and sterilization of the soils by insecticides and fertilizers - we're building unimaginable consequences.

How serious is our problem? Upon receiving the Sanger Award for Human Rights in 1966, Dr. Martin Luther King said, "Unlike the plagues of the dark ages or contemporary diseases which we do not understand, the modern plague of overpopulation is soluble by means we have discovered and with resources we possess. What is lacking is not sufficient knowledge of the solution, but universal consciousness of the gravity of the problem and the education of billions of people who are its victims."

Fifty years ago, Bangladesh, India and China ignored their accelerating populations. Today, America's leaders are following the same steps. According to the Center for Immigration Studies, we're allowing the immigration of more than 2.3 million people annually from countries that refuse to offer family planning. Since the American female has a fertility rate of 2.03 children, it's not Americans causing the rising population tide. We need immigration reform and reduction to less than 175,000 people annually before population momentum takes us to another 200 million Americans and an unsustainable society.

We commit our children and all living things to a difficult future by not addressing overpopulation. It's a disservice to ourselves, Colorado, our nation and to future generations.
 
Jimpeel

Your arguments are specious and boring as well as snide and condescending. Do you have anything to say that is factual and relevant?

Your arguments are oversimplified.

My comments were meant to be somewhat facetious and meant to draw attention to the fact there is no easy solution to the immigrant problem.

From personal experience and living on or near the border since 1979
90% of the illegals I have met were hardworking folks who were trying to survive. There were some thieves and scumbags as well but those were
rounded up and deported fairly quickly.

Going back to the original subject. The citizens patrolling the border should be allowed to continue to arrest anyone caught trying to enter the country illegally. The national guard should be used to kill any drug runners and Mexican Army used to escort them.

Nothing has worked so far and to make matters worse every few years
the president gives amnesty to all who were able to hold out long enough.

This in itself makes the US very attractive.

I think legal immigration should be increased dramatically and any aliens that commit violent or property crimes should be executed or sent to Guantanamo.

As for sounding like a liberal :rolleyes:
 
If we can prevent the North Koreans from sneaking into South Korea, we can stop a bunch of fence jumpers from crossing our border.

The US gov't could stop the illegal movement of people in a heartbeat if it wanted to, there's no doubt about that.
 
If we wanted to turn the American Southwest into an armed camp with a few hundred thousand troops at the ready maybe we could shut it down.

Would probably have to bring up the minefield argument again if were are going to make the Korea comparison.

If that ended up being the plan, at least we have a bunch of guys with desert experience now.
 
jsalcedo

Going back to the original subject. The citizens patrolling the border should be allowed to continue to arrest anyone caught trying to enter the country illegally. The national guard should be used to kill any drug runners and Mexican Army used to escort them.
Hear, hear!
As for sounding like a liberal
I was making a like comparison to those who go to the extreme in their arguments. I said you sound like them when you do likewise. I compared your "minefields and nerve gas" comment to their "bazooka and atomic bomb" analogy. I have no evidence that you actually are a Liberal. Your arguments simply went far afield like theirs' do.
 
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