Home-Defense and Gun Confiscation?

[mljdeckard]

paul34,

The DA can file on whomever they want to. The process of a Grand Jury, etc can easily hit that range. If it's me, I don't want the cheapest lawyer I can get.

The immunity clause hinges on no-bill or acquittal in the criminal charge. You have to take care of one before you can forget the other. And even if the law is on your side, they can still file. The process of hiring a lawyer to show up and read the line about immunity out of the book to get it dismissed won't be free. I live in a very gun-friendly place. The odds that I would be charged or sued in a self-defense case are as small here as anywhere in the country, but that doesn't mean I want to be the test case for a judge who has his or her own ideas about how the law should read. Saying you won't wind up in court, so there is no need to worry about the legal costs and consequences of a shooting is just like saying that you don't need to carry a gun because the odds are small that you will ever need to use it.

 

[benEzra]

There is this idea floating around out there of 'overpenetration'. There is no such thing. There's just penetration, and you would rather have too much than too little. Even if you do have a magic round that hits a human target, does devastating damage throughout their body, and never comes out the other side, there is still no guarantee you will hit with every round. This is why Rule #4 ALWAYS applies to EVERY person shoots a gun for ANY reason.

I'd disagree with the "there's no such thing as too much penetration" philosophy; if that were really the case, LEO's and CHL's would all be carrying FMJ.

I think that selecting the right amount of penetration is a good idea (and there are indeed circumstances where more is better), but beyond 12" or so in gelatin you are trading longer track length for reduced track diameter, and hence reduced effectiveness. (And taken to the extreme, flechettes in small arms were discarded by the military because penetration was phenomenal, but terminal ballistics were abysmal.)

Where differences come in are in determining what the optimum level of penetration (in both gelatin and building materials) is, and that will depend on your own circumstances. For example, the shoot-through-cover ability needed by an LEO sniper (or even an officer with a patrol rifle in the trunk) is arguably greater than what I need for an HD carbine, so I choose my load accordingly. Someone with more heavily built interior walls, etc. might choose something with more penetration than I do.

 

[mljdeckard]

I think that HP ammo has more to do with causing cavity trauma than limiting penetration. None of it is designed to stop 6" into the target.

 

[TexasBill]

RonDeer10mm: There are a number of fine HD/SD handguns that go for $500 or less and come with an extra magazine. My FN Herstal FNP9 is a very nice handgun and goes for less than $500.00 with two extra magazines. My Beretta PX4 Storm comes with one spare, but I can get a second spare and still be under $500.00. If it came to having a spare gun or loading one down with doodads, I'll take the spare over the tacticool every time.

As to confiscation of all your guns, that depends on the circumstances, your state's laws and the department's policies. If it's a clear-cut righteous shoot, the officers might not even take your gun at all. As for any other guns, if they haven't placed you under arrest and said they are going to prefer criminal charges against you, they have no reason to take any other guns; they are not evidence.

Always remember the first rule: don't talk about anything. Don't explain, don't justify, don't volunteer. You've just been through one of the most traumatic experiences anyone can have and you're not at your most rational, reasonable and eloquent. Let the police do their own investigation; you aren't going to help them or yourself chatting like a magpie.

If you are really worried about this, pay a competent attorney for an hour of his time and ask for advice before anything happens. The more expert knowledge you have, the better prepared you will be if the worst happens.

 

[benEzra]

I think that HP ammo has more to do with causing cavity trauma than limiting penetration. None of it is designed to stop 6" into the target.

I agree that causing a wider permanent cavity and much greater transient effects are the primary purpose, but you get those by trading penetration for it. So given a fixed amount of kinetic energy available, too little penetration and too much penetration are both less effective than optimum penetration with the best possible expansion/fragmentation.

FWIW, there are loads available that will penetrate 6" or less in gelatin; Federal 40-grain .223 JHP is one (see test below), which was occasionally used by SWAT in the past in situations were the least possible penetration was worth the potential decrease in effectiveness on off-angle shots.

 

[mustang_steve]

Find out before you buy...for example, in my county (pinealls), it's usally returned after the police take some test slugs from it to verify it was the pistol used in the shooting....however right across the bridge in the neighboring county, it'll take thousands in lawyer fees to get the legalese handled to get it back. Reason being the release requires the approval of a judge, and the judges there will not give that approval unless practically strong-armed into it (where the lawyers come into play).

Thus why all my defensive arms are as cheap as possible, $300 is my limit, as I spend a bit of my time in "the evil county" as I like to call it, and would be pissed off if I had to sacrifice an $800 firearm to the corrupt judges over there.

 

[augustino]

I must respectfully but totally disagree with mljdeckard

Hi mljdeckard!
I've got to respectfully disagree with your scenario friend. And I disagree based upon quite recent shootings that have actually taken place right here in Tennessee. The outcome in JUSTIFIED shootings have NOT even been close to what you suggest may happen.
You said
"And to Augustino- Good luck. Whether or not you have Castle doctrine, Stand your Ground law, evidence, and everything else on your side, there is still a process to determine whether or not you broke the law. All it takes is a rookie ADA trying to make a name for himself and a judge that has been sleeping on the couch for a couple of weeks, and you will be spending your kids' college money on lawyers"
Again, based on actual accounts of breakins, the scenario you've laid out has not been the case thank goodness. And I suggest that if this is what's happening in anyone's state or city that they exercise their rights and contact their representatives about the laws.

 

[mljdeckard]

You are basing your assumption on anecdotal evidence.

The case I laid out is ALWAYS possible, even if it didn't happen this time. Again, saying you won't plan for it because it is unlikely is like saying you don't need to have a gun at all, because the odds of ever needing to use it are slim.

And Ben, I won't be using any rounds that won't likely penetrate at least 12". Look at it this way. Even if you have the magic bullet that stops in the target every time, and STILL does enough damage to stop an attacker, it is unlikely that all of your shots are going to hit. What's worse than hitting innocent bystanders? Hitting innocent bystanders and STILL failing to stop the attacker.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Whether the gun is taken in evidence and whether you will have to incur legal fees will all depend on exactly what has happened and how it has happened.

If someone has been shot, on the surface it would appear that a crime has been committed. There will be an investigation. If there was plenty of evidence to show that the shooting was justified use of lethal force in self defense, it's doubtful that charges would even be filed.

But there is no guarantee that your particular "bad day" will work out so cleanly. Sometimes there will be a disagreement about whether or not the use of lethal force was justified. There might be a more extensive investigation, and you might need a good lawyer to properly protect your interests.

Maybe you'll really be unlucky and get charged and bound over for trial. Legal fees through a jury trial can run from $50,000 to $150,000 or more.

These things do happen. And they can happen in "gun friendly" states. Consider the case of Harold Fish in Arizona. Consider the case of Larry Hickey in Arizona.

You have no way of knowing in advance what will happen and how it will all work out. Sometimes it all does work out easily. But sometimes it doesn't.

 

[hso]

Myth based on a very few actual instances.

 

[benEzra]

And Ben, I won't be using any rounds that won't likely penetrate at least 12".

And that's entirely rational. I'm just saying that there is a point somewhere beyond 12" at which more penetration becomes counterproductive to effectiveness. 18" of penetration is excessive for a defense load by most any measure, and any load that penetrates more than that is inarguably trading effectiveness for penetration. Certainly a load with 25" of penetration would be less effective than a 12" to 14" load almost anywhere outside of big game hunting.

For me, and my likely scenarios, I am comfortable with 11" or so, but that's just quibbling, and I can envision rare circumstances in which 12" or 14" would be necessary. I just don't see 18" or 25" penetration as being more helpful than 12" or 14", and there are downsides to the ultra-deep-penetrating loads.

Look at it this way. Even if you have the magic bullet that stops in the target every time, and STILL does enough damage to stop an attacker, it is unlikely that all of your shots are going to hit. What's worse than hitting innocent bystanders? Hitting innocent bystanders and STILL failing to stop the attacker.

The thing is, though, that a load that penetrates 11" to 13" in gelatin and fragments in drywall is a lot less likely to hit bystanders even if you miss, compared to a load that penetrates 18" in gelatin, punches through three or four interior walls like they're not there, and ricochets instead of fragments. One load will most likely be stopped by the exterior wall (or before), whereas the other load will be much more likely to exit your house and potentially hit those bystanders. On the other hand, if you live in a brick house with no windows in the line of fire or have no neighbors, maybe the 18" load wouldn't be a drawback. So it depends.

Again, I'm not saying that the least possible penetration is always better, merely suggesting that attempting to pick a load with the right amount of penetration for a given circumstance is a rational thing to do, and that it is indeed possible to have too much penetration.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Myth based on a very few actual instances.

What, exactly?

 

[chieftain]

I have heard the fundamental question the OP is asking before.

I always think back to this quote:

At the battle of Waterloo, Major-General Sir William Ponsonby didn't want to risk his favorite charger. Instead, he chose a small hack he wouldn't mind losing.

A French lancer rode him down and killed him.

This is what we call "false economy".

--Unknown

Another way of saying this is, be sure to fully understand your priorities.

As to the folks using up all that energy about "through shoots". You could worry about 9 vs 45, or which color is better, Ford vs Chevy, or .......... too. It is just as fruitless.

Train, and practice, and when the elephant shows up, do your best. Train, train, train, practice, practice, practice. It may not get you to Carnage Hall but it will matter.

Get the best you can afford, in virtually all things, particularly things where you or your loved ones lives may depend on it. Or we all would be driving the same cheap car/truck, or as in this discussion, the same gun. We don't for a host of different reasons.

Go figure.

Fred

 

[788Ham]

I'm not worried about over-penetration, hitting a wall, thru 3 walls..... whatever. I've got loads in guns I know will over-penetrate, that's why they're in there! I don't have the time, nor will worry about it, if a perp kicks in my front door and I am armed with the over-penetrator loaded firearm, this is why I have it loaded this way. Before you decide to kick in my front door, I don't know how you'll be dressed, sweater on, over a parka, heavy shirt, who knows? So, my revolver is loaded with 240 gr. XTP's, I know what they'll do, as I've shot many of them, that's why they reside there, so if/when anyone decides to kick in the door....... over/under penetration?, I don't know, try it and we'll take 'em for a test drive! I'd hate to bring an early demise to anyone, however, I haven't worked all of the years I have, to just let someone come over and take what's mine and my families without a struggle.

 

[springwalk]

just buy several Hi-Point pistols and place them around your home. One inside the toilet tank, one in your car, one by the bed, one in the dinner room, one by the front door etc. So if you ever have to use them and the cops take it away you are only out $150 each Of course make sure they function properly.

 

[KBintheSLC]

It always depends on the case. There is no cut and dry answer as to when/if you will get your gun back. But considering that my attorney requires a $25,000 retainer in the event that a shooting incident goes to trial, losing the gun is going to be the cheapest part of the fiasco.

This is why you only shoot to save life/limb. Anything else is not worth it.


...

 

[Ridgerunner665]

I took an NRA Instructor class many years ago. One thing that I still remember was a statement that our instructor had for self defense shootings. He said that even a justified self defense shooting will end up costing you about $20,000 or more in lawyer fees. You could end up with a local prosecutor that is against self defense or be sued by the criminal's family members.
As others have said in early posts.....the loss of a $1000 handgun is going to the least of your worries.
By a good handgun that you can enjoy for years and trust for self defense. The odds are greatly in your favor that you will never need to shoot someone and I would not pass up buying a good gun because it might be confiscated after being used for self defense. Do you really want to skimp on quality and trust your life to inferior equipment?]

Things have changed since then...for many states anyway (your state may vary)

Many states have enacted laws that prevent you from being sued in civil court by the dead guys family...if its a justifiable shoot, thats the end of it...no court, no lawyers, no fees.

 

[vmfrantz]

I can tell you first hand you won't get it back until the convicted can no longer make a appeal. Been waiting 4years. This December I have one more to go. At least it's like that in Pennsylvania.

 

[hardworker]

Just a thought

Maybe we can all stop arguing law and just agree that how long it takes to get the gun back is influenced by a thousand different variables?