bdjansen
Member
removed by moderator for Low Road comments
I don't quite understand using a rifle for home defense
- Thread starter ShooterMcGavin
- Start date
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USAFrenegade
Member
What alot of people are forgetting is, what about over penatration? If you live in a small house, or appartment such as myself and many others here, over penatration is a big issue. I want to make sure I drop the suspect, and the suspect alone. I don't want my shot to go though the perp, through the wall and hit the 3 year old next door. Thats why I say a nice handgun with hollow points or frangable rounds, or a shotgun with bird shot. Thats just my oppinion.
Dr. Peter Venkman
Member
coyote jr said:
Interesting, considering #137 is not my post and my post which you did quote has not changed.
coyote_jr
member
You're right, my mistake, #135
TimboKhan
Member
Actually, most defense experts that I have ever read pretty clearly state that the rifle is the superior defensive tool, all things being equal. I am not an expert, but I am just reporting what I have read. As a matter of fact, isn't it Clint Smith that said that pistols are best used to fight your way to the rifle (or something close to that?)?
I agree with this statement, more or less. Follow up shots are surely more rapid from a 1911 than they are from a model 700. By the same token, the follow up shots are equally as rapid, from an AK or an AR as they are from that same 1911. The advantage, of course, is capacity. I also happen to think that I would rather have 7 rounds of .45 than 14 rounds of .22. In that case, "depends" is an accurate statement.
With that being said, I pretty firmly believe that the rifle is the superior tool, an opinion that I did not always have, but have come to believe after listening to experts and knowledgeable people in general, both here on THR and in real life. Given the choice, I would much rather defend home and hearth with my AR (or SKS, or Saiga) than I would with any of my handguns. The reason, for me, is pretty simple. I shoot them better under duress (something I know from personal experience), I value the advantage of capacity (even though it's theoretically unnecessary since I shoot them better), and because I have a wider and much more practical range of caliber options.
Again, I am no expert, but I would guess that any caliber that represents a signifigant gain in power over the typical defensive cartridges (.45/.357/9mm, etc.) is probably less effective in a defensive situation due to control issues. If you can shoot a .44 mag (or bigger) as quickly, accurately and well as you can shoot a 9mm, god bless. My guess is that for the bulk of the population, that simply isn't the case. I, on the other hand, can shoot my AR or my SKS quickly and accurately with better terminal performance. I know a .223 isn't as "big" as a .45 or a .357, but in terms of damage to tissue and potential for blood loss it is superior, particularly if your loaded with something like the TAP. The same can be said of the 7.62x39. It is also worth mentioning that I actually have been shot with a defensive handgun caliber, specifically the 9mm, and at very close range even. It hurt, and I lost a good deal of blood over the course of several hours, in addition to a kidney and some assorted guts, but the fact is that I would have been able to fire back for a good hour before I would have been "stopped". Looking at various ballistics tests relative to my case, the .223 likely would have caused more damage thanks to fragmentation. Although I have started shooting 9mm again as I find it enjoyable and cheap(er), I really have serious doubt as to it's combat effectiveness solely because of what happened to me. Personal experience always speaks louder than the written word, and I know I would have been able to fight back for a pretty fair amount of time, which is something I don't want any intruder I happen to shoot to do.
Of course, I am also not poo-ing on handguns. I sleep with a .357 right next to my bed (and a loaded AR right next to that!). I also keep a .45 handy at all times, and of course I actually carry a handgun for defense (in .357, if anyone cares). It's not like I think handguns are without defensive value, and I don't think Correia was saying that, although apparently thats how y'all took it. Simply put, I think what he was saying is that in comparison, the handgun is simply not as good a tool as the rifle, assuming reasonable caliber choice with both. Doesn't mean that it is useless, doesn't mean it won't get the job done. Just means that it isn't the best tool, just like a crescent wrench isn't the best tool when compared to a properly fitting socket wrench.
I guess I would argue the point to the extent that while tissue is easily pierced and bones are relatively easily broken, human beings have proven to be quite resilient under a wide variety of conditions, with a wider variety of injury. I get what your saying to a point, but there have been any number of cases of people that have soaked up lead left and right, and still were able to stand and deliver. Want a great example? Read some of the Medal of Honor citations given to guys that lived to get the medal handed to them. Mindset, luck, and circumstance can all overcome, at least temporarily, our inherent fragility.
Bazooka Joe71
Member
I apologize in advance, because I am a bit slow at times, but I thought this thread was about rifles, shotguns, and handguns.
We can ALL be friends.
Last edited by a moderator:
Someone end this forum for Pete's sake! :banghead:
There are times when a bat is better for HD as well as a pistol, as well as a rifle, as well as a shotgun.
What about drillings? I think I may use one of my drillings for HD 16X16 over 9.3 x72. Thoughts on that one? Maybe I should saw it off as well! Personally and in reality I use a 1911 if the culdesac gets attacked by raving hoardes from Waziristan I will upgrade to something with longer range and more ammo capacity. I am guessing I will have enough notice before they reach my subdivision to pull the heavy artillery out of the safe. If the invasion hits directly in Northern Kentucky then I am out of luck--a chance I am willing to take.
There are times when a bat is better for HD as well as a pistol, as well as a rifle, as well as a shotgun.
What about drillings? I think I may use one of my drillings for HD 16X16 over 9.3 x72. Thoughts on that one? Maybe I should saw it off as well! Personally and in reality I use a 1911 if the culdesac gets attacked by raving hoardes from Waziristan I will upgrade to something with longer range and more ammo capacity. I am guessing I will have enough notice before they reach my subdivision to pull the heavy artillery out of the safe. If the invasion hits directly in Northern Kentucky then I am out of luck--a chance I am willing to take.
Nolo
Member
That's a really good idea... a chainsaw would totally own in a knife fight. You want to over kill the guy, because they want to get into your house (and may have already done so) steal you stuff, rape your wife and daughters and kill all the occupants. There is nothing bad in that situation about overkill, except maybe over penetration, which, as long as you're not shooting .338 Lapua, you should be okay with.
Seriously. I'd never in a million years defend my home with anything other than a long gun. Unless I had to, of course.
Nolo
Member
Is it now? What about that guy in the Pacific Theater who FELL ON A GRENADE and lived to tell the tale (and I believe is still alive today, if not he died recently). I mean, come on. Of all the weapons out there you would think a point-blank GRENADE would be able to take out just about any goblin. Now, this guy wasn't a goblin, but he wasn't hopped up on drugs or anything either. He wasn't technically special (not a super-mutant or anything
), and he still survived being hit with a GRENADE. Man, I can't emphasize that enough. It was a GRENADE. Sure he was down for the count, but he lived. What chance does any puny non-explosive rifle (not even putting pistols in here) round have? And don't say "headshots", because when you need them, they won't be there.Now I'm not saying that you should keep an M203 by your bedside, but HD is about planning for the WORST. If you are going to plan for the worst, then don't use a handgun.
woof
Member
Bazooka Joe, If all handguns suck and they suck in comparison to all rifles the AR is beside the point. Which could you get the second shot off with, a Glock or the old >30-40 Krag in the closet? it is a rifle isn't it? Fact is many people don't have ARs (shock!). The only rifle they have might be a .22 or a bolt action hunting rifle. Again I say, it is a gross overgeneralization to say all hanguns suck in comparison to a rifle because in many scenarios they are superior to the choice of a rifle even when available. As for my friend, yeah - he really wants to talk to some belligerent self-important poster on a bulletin board he has nothing to do with. If you want to believe that every firearms instructor on earth agrees with the statement "All handguns suck and the sooner you get that through your head the better off you'll be," go right ahead. BY the way second shat is just part of it. I have heard and read many many SD experts say the best weapon is the one you are most familiar with, most comfortable with and can shoot best. But I don't even have a dog in this fight. The only handgun I own is a .22.
depends on the BG. if he's new, he probably doesn't know all the tricks. however, if he's more experienced, he'll look. when my home was burglarized, the BG lifted my mattress to look underneath. i'm sure he looked in a lot of other nooks and crannies as well.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
A .223 carbine shooting jacketed hollowpoints penetrates less in building materials than almost any defensive-caliber handgun shooting jacketed hollowpoints.
Jon Coppenbarger
Member
So none of you have a reinforced door frame for your Lexan bedroom door.
It amazing what it looks like in the night since it is covered with a self adhesive wood grain plastic. A high and low firing port is a nice addition.
a hand gun for laying around the house and that nice rifle out a port to slow down any unwanted guest.
LOL
Rifle or hand gun? A hand gun is so much easier but I agree if you have to use it to get to your rifle.
It amazing what it looks like in the night since it is covered with a self adhesive wood grain plastic. A high and low firing port is a nice addition.
a hand gun for laying around the house and that nice rifle out a port to slow down any unwanted guest.
LOL
Rifle or hand gun? A hand gun is so much easier but I agree if you have to use it to get to your rifle.
80% of defensive firearms use in the US is defensive handgun use.
Like a lot of things that are more convenient and more compact than their bigger alternatives, a handgun is not as powerful as a rifle.
However, your handgun that's where you can get to it quickly but a burglar can't beats the hell out of a rifle locked in a combo safe or a shotgun that was behind the door but is now in the hands of the home invader who is about to shoot you.
Individual situations do require a little bit of critical thinking and/or common sense.
If I had all the time in the world, I guess I'd rather have an M1A with some nice hunting rounds in it to stop someone intent on harming my wife or me. If it will work on an elk at 250 yards, it'll stop a home invader. But in the far more likely situation that I'm surprised by an intruder, I'll be glad to have my convenient, quick pistol in my hand, instead of nothing.
Like a lot of things that are more convenient and more compact than their bigger alternatives, a handgun is not as powerful as a rifle.
However, your handgun that's where you can get to it quickly but a burglar can't beats the hell out of a rifle locked in a combo safe or a shotgun that was behind the door but is now in the hands of the home invader who is about to shoot you.
Individual situations do require a little bit of critical thinking and/or common sense.
If I had all the time in the world, I guess I'd rather have an M1A with some nice hunting rounds in it to stop someone intent on harming my wife or me. If it will work on an elk at 250 yards, it'll stop a home invader. But in the far more likely situation that I'm surprised by an intruder, I'll be glad to have my convenient, quick pistol in my hand, instead of nothing.
For those interested in actual penetration tests.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/
http://www.theboxotruth.com/
Marlin 45 carbine
Member
I suppose you can say I'm paranoid because I don't feel fully armed with a Makarov stoked with hot-loaded Hornady XTP under my pillow and a 12ga 3" mag SXS leaned up in the closest corner, that's why I have my Marlin Camp 45 acp loaded with Golden Saber hots hanging on the wall hook 10 ft. away.
USAFrenegade
Member
After looking at this web site:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/ it seems that everything has over penetration possibilities, just like I already knew, but it still goes to show the rifle will over penetrate far worse than the pistol, no matter what rifle it is. This web site did not talk about over penetration with hollow points or frangable rounds. Those are what I use for HD. Agian just my opinion, and every body has their own.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/ it seems that everything has over penetration possibilities, just like I already knew, but it still goes to show the rifle will over penetrate far worse than the pistol, no matter what rifle it is. This web site did not talk about over penetration with hollow points or frangable rounds. Those are what I use for HD. Agian just my opinion, and every body has their own.
A couple things to keep in mind after looking at though though. Hollow points won't expand in drywall, fmj or jhp won't matter. Most importantly though is looking at some of the side effects of penetrating dry wall. In their tests alot of .223 rounds deviated from course and started tumbling and falling toward the ground. A tumbling round isn't going to have as much penetration potential in tissue or dry wall, plus I like the idea of it falling from central mass height. The other thing to keep in mind is that fmj .223 rounds rely on their fragmentation from tumbling in tissue at high velocity for much of their wounding ability. The .223 round that has been through a couple walls might well be under fragmentation speed and make a much less impressive wound. A jhp is still probably going to want to expand.
USAFrenegade
Member
Soybomb you bring up a good point. No matter what the caliber of which ever weapon used there is always going to be the risk of over penitration. So what ever you decide to use for HD is your choice, just remember that you are responsible for that round from the second you pull the trigger till it stops. It doesn't matter if you use a handgun, shotgun, or rifle just be aware of your target, and all of your suroundings.
Officers'Wife
Member
Hi McGavin,
My late uncle always advised me that in a "social" situation that I should always take the weapon closest to hand. He also told me that when you are scared enough to pee your pants a rifle is easier to keep on target than a sidearm. Considering that uncle served twice in Vietnam and was actually shot at I always felt it wise to take his advice.
Selena
My late uncle always advised me that in a "social" situation that I should always take the weapon closest to hand. He also told me that when you are scared enough to pee your pants a rifle is easier to keep on target than a sidearm. Considering that uncle served twice in Vietnam and was actually shot at I always felt it wise to take his advice.
Selena
crebralfix
member
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2004
- Messages
- 1,356
If you think you get "great spread" from a shotgun at indoor distances...you need to pattern your shotgun out to 25 yards in five or ten foot increments.
If you think "you cannot miss" with a shotgun at indoor distances...you need to pattern your shotgun out to 25 yards in five or ten foot increments.
If you think a shotgun emits a Whirling Ball of Death...get a clue.
If you think "you cannot miss" with a shotgun at indoor distances...you need to pattern your shotgun out to 25 yards in five or ten foot increments.
If you think a shotgun emits a Whirling Ball of Death...get a clue.
oh yes the box of Bull read his disclaimer. then read real test and evidence. and real shootings ........
try real operators and those that know not those who play.
The Call-Out Bag
by Gunsite Training Center Staff
A Comparison of .223 Penetration vs. Handgun Calibers
The .223 shoulder-fired weapon systems (e.g., AUG, CAR) have received some recent interest as indoor tactical weapons for special operations teams. increased power, longer effective distances, and greater tactical flexibility have been cited as positive factors of the .223 systems over 9me SMG-type weapon systems. Other authors (Fackler, et all) have postulated greater capability for tissue damage and incapacitation of the .223 rifle cartridge over the 9mm projectile fired from handguns or SMGs. Negative considerations for the indoor use of the .223 weapon systems focus on over-penetration of projectiles and possible subsequent liability.
Our effort was made to compare the penetration characteristics of various .223 bullets to various handgun bullets fired into test barriers representing indoor and outdoor building walls. We felt that the following test might mimic shots fired from inside a building, through the internal rooms, out the exterior wall, and into another similar building nearby. A comparison of wall penetration effects by a variety of handgun calibers versus the effects of .223 FMJ ball, .223 SP, and .223 HP, under these same conditions, was expected to substantiate other findings reported or provide new information to those interested in this area of ballistics.
Two interior test walls were constructed using a wood 2x4 frame with standard drywall board attached to both sides. Two exterior test walls were made using wooden frames with drywall board attached to one side and exterior grade T1-11 wooden siding attached on the other (exterior) side. R-19 fiberglass insulation batting (Dow Coming) was stapled inside the two exterior test wails. To maintain test medium consistency, no wooden cross beams, electrical fixtures, conduits, or electrical wiring were placed in any of the test walls.
The test walls were placed in the following sequence to mimic shots fired from. inside a building, through two internal rooms, out the building, and into another similarly constructed building:
A. Interior wall #1 was placed 8 feet from the shooting position.
B. Interior wail #2 was placed 8 feet beyond interior wall #1.
C. Exterior wall #1 was placed 8 feet beyond interior wail #2. (Exterior side facing away from the shooter.)
D. Exterior wall #2 was placed 15 feet beyond exterior wall #1. (Exterior side facing toward the shooter.)
All calibers tested were fired from a position 8 feet in front of interior wall #l, so the bullet trajectory would travel in sequence through each of the succeeding test walls. Each caliber tested was chronographed and all firing results were videotaped for archive files.
The following results were obtained:
All handgun calibers exited exterior wall #1. This means they exited the "house" after passing through two interior "rooms," then entered another "house" to impact into the berm. The handgun caliber which demonstrated the least penetration was .22 LR Lightning.
The only calibers which did NOT exit the "house" were .223 (5.56) soft point and hollow point loaded bullets.
All projectiles demonstrated directional changes in their trajectory after passing through the first interior wall. The greatest directional changes (10 inches+ yaw) were shown by 9mm and .40 S&W projectiles.
Directional changes in bullet trajectory appeared to increase in magnitude with each test wall the projectile passed through.
The penetration characteristics of projectiles have long been believed to be primarily determined by a relationship of bullet mass, bullet shape, bullet velocity, and bullet construction. The penetration differences of .223 soft point and hollow point projectiles versus the effects from .223 full metal jacket may be due to differences in bullet construction. The differential effects on penetration due to bullet construction shown with the .223 are different and appear greater in magnitude than those encountered when handgun bullet construction is modified. Since .223 projectile velocities are threefold greater than those of handgun projectiles, the increased magnitude of bullet velocity might account for the differences in bullet trajectory and penetration distance. The deviated trajectory of hollow point handgun projectiles was also greater than the deviation found with full metal jacketed handgun bullets; again, possibly due to contact point deformation. The preceding study more than ever identifies the need for a personal emphasis of marksmanship and tactical fundamentals. The shooter is responsible for the bullets that go downrange. Practice, be aware, manage your trigger, and watch your front sight!
try real operators and those that know not those who play.
The Call-Out Bag
by Gunsite Training Center Staff
A Comparison of .223 Penetration vs. Handgun Calibers
The .223 shoulder-fired weapon systems (e.g., AUG, CAR) have received some recent interest as indoor tactical weapons for special operations teams. increased power, longer effective distances, and greater tactical flexibility have been cited as positive factors of the .223 systems over 9me SMG-type weapon systems. Other authors (Fackler, et all) have postulated greater capability for tissue damage and incapacitation of the .223 rifle cartridge over the 9mm projectile fired from handguns or SMGs. Negative considerations for the indoor use of the .223 weapon systems focus on over-penetration of projectiles and possible subsequent liability.
Our effort was made to compare the penetration characteristics of various .223 bullets to various handgun bullets fired into test barriers representing indoor and outdoor building walls. We felt that the following test might mimic shots fired from inside a building, through the internal rooms, out the exterior wall, and into another similar building nearby. A comparison of wall penetration effects by a variety of handgun calibers versus the effects of .223 FMJ ball, .223 SP, and .223 HP, under these same conditions, was expected to substantiate other findings reported or provide new information to those interested in this area of ballistics.
Two interior test walls were constructed using a wood 2x4 frame with standard drywall board attached to both sides. Two exterior test walls were made using wooden frames with drywall board attached to one side and exterior grade T1-11 wooden siding attached on the other (exterior) side. R-19 fiberglass insulation batting (Dow Coming) was stapled inside the two exterior test wails. To maintain test medium consistency, no wooden cross beams, electrical fixtures, conduits, or electrical wiring were placed in any of the test walls.
The test walls were placed in the following sequence to mimic shots fired from. inside a building, through two internal rooms, out the building, and into another similarly constructed building:
A. Interior wall #1 was placed 8 feet from the shooting position.
B. Interior wail #2 was placed 8 feet beyond interior wall #1.
C. Exterior wall #1 was placed 8 feet beyond interior wail #2. (Exterior side facing away from the shooter.)
D. Exterior wall #2 was placed 15 feet beyond exterior wall #1. (Exterior side facing toward the shooter.)
All calibers tested were fired from a position 8 feet in front of interior wall #l, so the bullet trajectory would travel in sequence through each of the succeeding test walls. Each caliber tested was chronographed and all firing results were videotaped for archive files.
The following results were obtained:
All handgun calibers exited exterior wall #1. This means they exited the "house" after passing through two interior "rooms," then entered another "house" to impact into the berm. The handgun caliber which demonstrated the least penetration was .22 LR Lightning.
The only calibers which did NOT exit the "house" were .223 (5.56) soft point and hollow point loaded bullets.
All projectiles demonstrated directional changes in their trajectory after passing through the first interior wall. The greatest directional changes (10 inches+ yaw) were shown by 9mm and .40 S&W projectiles.
Directional changes in bullet trajectory appeared to increase in magnitude with each test wall the projectile passed through.
The penetration characteristics of projectiles have long been believed to be primarily determined by a relationship of bullet mass, bullet shape, bullet velocity, and bullet construction. The penetration differences of .223 soft point and hollow point projectiles versus the effects from .223 full metal jacket may be due to differences in bullet construction. The differential effects on penetration due to bullet construction shown with the .223 are different and appear greater in magnitude than those encountered when handgun bullet construction is modified. Since .223 projectile velocities are threefold greater than those of handgun projectiles, the increased magnitude of bullet velocity might account for the differences in bullet trajectory and penetration distance. The deviated trajectory of hollow point handgun projectiles was also greater than the deviation found with full metal jacketed handgun bullets; again, possibly due to contact point deformation. The preceding study more than ever identifies the need for a personal emphasis of marksmanship and tactical fundamentals. The shooter is responsible for the bullets that go downrange. Practice, be aware, manage your trigger, and watch your front sight!
Shootout Results
It was late in the morning on a hot July day in 1993, when members of a major Western cities’ police tactical unit executed a search and arrest warrants in connection with a narcotics raid on a "biker residence." The tactical officers were armed with Sig-Sauer 9mm P-226 pistols and 16-inch barreled Steyr AUG .223 caliber carbines with optical sights. The Steyr, loaded per SOP, with 28 Federal 55-grain HP rounds was the primary entry weapon for several officers on the team. Steyr carbines were selected for this raid, because the team leaders anticipated shots "out to 25 yards."
The team was required to knock and announce, effectively negating the element of surprise. Approximately 92 seconds into the raid, the officer involved in the following shooting incident was in the process of cuffing a subject when two Rottweiler dogs attacked. While the other officers were dealing with the dogs by employing OC aerosol, a 6-foot-tall, 201-pound subject, high on "speed", suddenly burst into the room occupied by the police through a locked door and leveled a 9mm pistol at one of the tactical officers. The distance between the adversaries was approximately 20 feet. With his back essentially to the subject, the involved officer acquired the threat in his peripheral vision, whirled around and commanded, "Police, put your hands up," while clearing the Steyr’s safety and mounting the weapon. The subject then shifted his pistol, held by one hand in a bladed stance, towards the reacting officer. In "less than a second" the subject’s hostile action was countered by the officer by firing two fast, sighted, tightly controlled pairs, for a total of four rounds at the subject. Rounds one and two missed, but were contained by the structure. Round three connected, penetrated and remained in the subject. Round four grazed his upper chest and exited as he spun and fell. Round three was quickly effective. The collapsing subject ceased all motor movement and expired within 60 seconds. The involved officer was aware of each round fired and simultaneously moved to cover. Tactical members were then confronted by a female accomplice armed with a double-barreled shotgun. However, the involved officer also successfully negotiated her surrender. All .223 rounds that missed the subject struck parts of the building’s internal structure, fragmented and remained inside.
When the autopsy was performed, the forensic pathologist was amazed at the degree of internal devastation caused b the .223 round. There was a two-inch void of tissue in the chest, with a literal "snowstorm" of bullet fragments and secondary bone fragments throughout the upper left chest area. The round struck the subject 11 inches below the top of his head and inflicted the following wounds:
Penetrated the top of the left lung, left carotid and subclavian arteries.
The collar bone and first rib were broken. Cavity measured 5x6 centimeters.
What is significant about this "instant one-shot stop" was that the round did not strike the subject at the most effective or optimum angle and did not involve any direct contact with the heart or central nervous system. It is doubtful that this type o terminal ballistic performance could have been achieved by any of the police service pistol/SMG rounds currently in use.
Although this is only one incident and could be an aberration, police tactical teams require this type of terminal ballistic performance to enhance their safety and survival particularly during CQB engagements, when criminals most often enjoy a positional and action-versus-reaction time advantage.
The FBI study clearly demonstrates the following: (1) that .223 rounds on average, penetrate less than the hollow point pistol rounds evaluated, (2) concern for over penetration of the .223 round, at close range, has been greatly exaggerated, (3) with the exception of soft ballistic garment penetration, the .223 round appears to be relatively safer for employment in CQB events than the hollow point bullets tested.
Observations and experience indicate that high velocity rifle bullets generally produce more serious wounds in tissue than pistol bullets, regardless of range.
Violent temporary cavitation, in conjunction with bullet yaw and fragmentation, are essential wounding components for high velocity rifle projectiles.
As range and bullet stability increases and velocity decreases, rifle caliber wound severity decreases and penetration increases.
Where soft target penetration requirements exist and over penetration concerns are prevalent, police should employ hollow point bullets in this caliber.
Full metal case or heavier soft point bullets may be more appropriate for hard target penetration in this caliber.
The .223 and the current carbine systems available for it are highly versatile and well suited for urban as well as rural operations. However, because of enhanced terminal ballistic performance, rifles are recommended if targets are expected to be engaged beyond 200 meters. [The .223 round itself should not be used in law enforcement applications at any ranges outside of 300 yards/meters. Long distance shots should be left to highly trained sniper units using medium caliber center fire rifle ammunition. e.g. .308/7.62 NATO. Also, the majority of police sniper shots occur within 100 yards/meters.]
The ability to train with one shoulder weapon and caliber for both CQB and open air options simplifies logistics and training, makes training more effective and is cost effective. [Again, one upper for general, secondary weapon usage, and one upper for CQB]
Under current pricing, police agencies can realize significant savings by purchasing single-fire carbines instead of select-fire machine guns.
Because of the "political" considerations and perhaps the concern over the possibility of more serious injuries caused by errant "friendly fire," the highly versatile and powerful .223 carbine may not be a suitable CQB firearm for some departments. However, if the above factors are not involved, the .223 carbine is an extremely flexible and effective anti-personnel weapon with, in many cases, handling characteristics actually superior to many contemporary SMGs. It offers the advantages of reduced logistics, lower costs and reduced training time when compared to agencies employing multiple specialty weapons. The caliber in its current offering is far from perfect, but in spite of some shortcomings, I anticipate that in the future it will eventually replace pistol caliber SMGs in many police departments and law enforcement agencies.
It has been a recently growing trend to see law enforcement departments exchanging their issue shotguns for the police carbine in 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP. And many departments have found that these carbines do not serve their needs as they expected. However, they are fearful to switch, or in many cases purchase, .223 carbines because "they will go through 10 people and 3 city blocks before they stop!" As you can see, this is not the case, and is in fact, completely the opposite. I hope that this article helps to clear all false truths and misnomers about this very versatile and serviceable cartridge.
It was late in the morning on a hot July day in 1993, when members of a major Western cities’ police tactical unit executed a search and arrest warrants in connection with a narcotics raid on a "biker residence." The tactical officers were armed with Sig-Sauer 9mm P-226 pistols and 16-inch barreled Steyr AUG .223 caliber carbines with optical sights. The Steyr, loaded per SOP, with 28 Federal 55-grain HP rounds was the primary entry weapon for several officers on the team. Steyr carbines were selected for this raid, because the team leaders anticipated shots "out to 25 yards."
The team was required to knock and announce, effectively negating the element of surprise. Approximately 92 seconds into the raid, the officer involved in the following shooting incident was in the process of cuffing a subject when two Rottweiler dogs attacked. While the other officers were dealing with the dogs by employing OC aerosol, a 6-foot-tall, 201-pound subject, high on "speed", suddenly burst into the room occupied by the police through a locked door and leveled a 9mm pistol at one of the tactical officers. The distance between the adversaries was approximately 20 feet. With his back essentially to the subject, the involved officer acquired the threat in his peripheral vision, whirled around and commanded, "Police, put your hands up," while clearing the Steyr’s safety and mounting the weapon. The subject then shifted his pistol, held by one hand in a bladed stance, towards the reacting officer. In "less than a second" the subject’s hostile action was countered by the officer by firing two fast, sighted, tightly controlled pairs, for a total of four rounds at the subject. Rounds one and two missed, but were contained by the structure. Round three connected, penetrated and remained in the subject. Round four grazed his upper chest and exited as he spun and fell. Round three was quickly effective. The collapsing subject ceased all motor movement and expired within 60 seconds. The involved officer was aware of each round fired and simultaneously moved to cover. Tactical members were then confronted by a female accomplice armed with a double-barreled shotgun. However, the involved officer also successfully negotiated her surrender. All .223 rounds that missed the subject struck parts of the building’s internal structure, fragmented and remained inside.
When the autopsy was performed, the forensic pathologist was amazed at the degree of internal devastation caused b the .223 round. There was a two-inch void of tissue in the chest, with a literal "snowstorm" of bullet fragments and secondary bone fragments throughout the upper left chest area. The round struck the subject 11 inches below the top of his head and inflicted the following wounds:
Penetrated the top of the left lung, left carotid and subclavian arteries.
The collar bone and first rib were broken. Cavity measured 5x6 centimeters.
What is significant about this "instant one-shot stop" was that the round did not strike the subject at the most effective or optimum angle and did not involve any direct contact with the heart or central nervous system. It is doubtful that this type o terminal ballistic performance could have been achieved by any of the police service pistol/SMG rounds currently in use.
Although this is only one incident and could be an aberration, police tactical teams require this type of terminal ballistic performance to enhance their safety and survival particularly during CQB engagements, when criminals most often enjoy a positional and action-versus-reaction time advantage.
The FBI study clearly demonstrates the following: (1) that .223 rounds on average, penetrate less than the hollow point pistol rounds evaluated, (2) concern for over penetration of the .223 round, at close range, has been greatly exaggerated, (3) with the exception of soft ballistic garment penetration, the .223 round appears to be relatively safer for employment in CQB events than the hollow point bullets tested.
Observations and experience indicate that high velocity rifle bullets generally produce more serious wounds in tissue than pistol bullets, regardless of range.
Violent temporary cavitation, in conjunction with bullet yaw and fragmentation, are essential wounding components for high velocity rifle projectiles.
As range and bullet stability increases and velocity decreases, rifle caliber wound severity decreases and penetration increases.
Where soft target penetration requirements exist and over penetration concerns are prevalent, police should employ hollow point bullets in this caliber.
Full metal case or heavier soft point bullets may be more appropriate for hard target penetration in this caliber.
The .223 and the current carbine systems available for it are highly versatile and well suited for urban as well as rural operations. However, because of enhanced terminal ballistic performance, rifles are recommended if targets are expected to be engaged beyond 200 meters. [The .223 round itself should not be used in law enforcement applications at any ranges outside of 300 yards/meters. Long distance shots should be left to highly trained sniper units using medium caliber center fire rifle ammunition. e.g. .308/7.62 NATO. Also, the majority of police sniper shots occur within 100 yards/meters.]
The ability to train with one shoulder weapon and caliber for both CQB and open air options simplifies logistics and training, makes training more effective and is cost effective. [Again, one upper for general, secondary weapon usage, and one upper for CQB]
Under current pricing, police agencies can realize significant savings by purchasing single-fire carbines instead of select-fire machine guns.
Because of the "political" considerations and perhaps the concern over the possibility of more serious injuries caused by errant "friendly fire," the highly versatile and powerful .223 carbine may not be a suitable CQB firearm for some departments. However, if the above factors are not involved, the .223 carbine is an extremely flexible and effective anti-personnel weapon with, in many cases, handling characteristics actually superior to many contemporary SMGs. It offers the advantages of reduced logistics, lower costs and reduced training time when compared to agencies employing multiple specialty weapons. The caliber in its current offering is far from perfect, but in spite of some shortcomings, I anticipate that in the future it will eventually replace pistol caliber SMGs in many police departments and law enforcement agencies.
It has been a recently growing trend to see law enforcement departments exchanging their issue shotguns for the police carbine in 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP. And many departments have found that these carbines do not serve their needs as they expected. However, they are fearful to switch, or in many cases purchase, .223 carbines because "they will go through 10 people and 3 city blocks before they stop!" As you can see, this is not the case, and is in fact, completely the opposite. I hope that this article helps to clear all false truths and misnomers about this very versatile and serviceable cartridge.
arthurcw
Member
Booner,
Thanks for the post. good read.
Thanks for the post. good read.
peacemaker45
Member
Boy, looks like I missed a good dust-up.
It seems like some folks are objecting to the use of a long arm on the grounds that they are slow into action. Maybe some are, like the average boltie. However, with a lever action carbine, starting with stock dismounted and at belt level, and an empty chamber, I can have a round on target in .75 seconds. Not exactly horribly slow.
It seems some are objecting on the basis that a handgun is "good enough," so why do you need a rifle? More power in a rifle cartridge, more accuracy in a shoulder fired gun with a long sight radius, and with some rifles more ammo. All good things, right?
It seems some are objecting that a rifle is overkill. This almost seems like advocating a "fair fight." (specifically, the chainsaw/knife comment) We're not talking about a duel, here. Fair fights are called sporting events. Games. Things to bet on. Self defense is about stacking the odds, cheating all you can, fighting dirty, and above all WINNING. Anything worth fighting for is worth fighting dirty for.
Is a rifle too much, when a pistol is good enough? I say give me any edge I can get. "Good enough," sucks when your a$$ is on the line.
~~~Mat
It seems like some folks are objecting to the use of a long arm on the grounds that they are slow into action. Maybe some are, like the average boltie. However, with a lever action carbine, starting with stock dismounted and at belt level, and an empty chamber, I can have a round on target in .75 seconds. Not exactly horribly slow.
It seems some are objecting on the basis that a handgun is "good enough," so why do you need a rifle? More power in a rifle cartridge, more accuracy in a shoulder fired gun with a long sight radius, and with some rifles more ammo. All good things, right?
It seems some are objecting that a rifle is overkill. This almost seems like advocating a "fair fight." (specifically, the chainsaw/knife comment) We're not talking about a duel, here. Fair fights are called sporting events. Games. Things to bet on. Self defense is about stacking the odds, cheating all you can, fighting dirty, and above all WINNING. Anything worth fighting for is worth fighting dirty for.
Is a rifle too much, when a pistol is good enough? I say give me any edge I can get. "Good enough," sucks when your a$$ is on the line.
~~~Mat
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