coyote_jr
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end the madness, Shooter mcGavin please come tell us you now understand the rifle for HD
I don't quite understand using a rifle for home defense
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Correia,
I would just like to see this thread die. I edited some non High Road comments out and came back with this.
My personal problem with a rifle is I have an 11 month old in the house and while I can keep the pistola in a bedside quicky open biometric safe(more of a metal box)--they call it a safe I digress. Whereas an M4gery I can't do that. Despite all the old adage of gun proofing your kid not kid proofing your gun she's still to young to comprehend. We also have a lot of visitors to the hacienda and these folks bring little people as well. So for me the old 1911 is safer for the kid and visitors than heavier artillery. If you have a suggestion I will listen.
I also believe pistols can be adequate and mine makes me feel safe enough you may see it differently. No I don't play out possible scenarios in my head maybe that is why I feel fine with a pistol alone.
I would just like to see this thread die. I edited some non High Road comments out and came back with this.
My personal problem with a rifle is I have an 11 month old in the house and while I can keep the pistola in a bedside quicky open biometric safe(more of a metal box)--they call it a safe I digress. Whereas an M4gery I can't do that. Despite all the old adage of gun proofing your kid not kid proofing your gun she's still to young to comprehend. We also have a lot of visitors to the hacienda and these folks bring little people as well. So for me the old 1911 is safer for the kid and visitors than heavier artillery. If you have a suggestion I will listen.
I also believe pistols can be adequate and mine makes me feel safe enough you may see it differently. No I don't play out possible scenarios in my head maybe that is why I feel fine with a pistol alone.
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Jorg Nysgerrig
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2RCO, mounting one of these or one of these in the closet might give you comparable access and security to what you have. However, that's probably a discussion for another thread.
ArfinGreebly
Moderator Emeritus
Mr. 2RCO
I'm hoping you don't feel like people are picking on you.
I would imagine you understand the relative attributes of a pistol and a rifle.
On any given day, the circumstances might favor one over the other.
There's a lot of "conventional wisdom" out there that doesn't match the experimental data.
Larry teaches pistol. He teaches effective use. He teaches strategy and tactics. Nonetheless, this does not mean that, given the choice, it is the best choice.
The gun you have is orders of magnitude better than the one you don't.
I can't recall where I've seen it, but I have seen a wall mount for a long gun. It keeps the gun up off the floor, prevents casual seizure, and secures it against inadvertent discharge.
I've seen them for rifles and shotguns.
I have also seen an over-the-door mount that does essentially the same thing.
I'm not properly trained in the use if a carbine for HD. There are things I know, and things I can figure out, but live action isn't the time for "figuring out" how to best use one.
I keep a pistol handy.
It's not ideal, but I have (for now) a better command of that than I do a rifle in CQB.
When I've trained -- at least to some minimal level -- with the carbine, it will become the primary.
If your circumstances dictate that your 1911 is what you can use, then by all means, avail yourself of that. There are many scenarios when it will be adequate or more than adequate.
If you have the option (by use of a wall mount, for example) to add a rifle or shotgun to your bag-o-tools, then it would seem prudent to do so.
I've watched this discussion go on for ten pages, seen the testimony that a rifle is preferred, and nonetheless know that, for myself, I'm just not ready for it yet.
The good news is that I know someone who can help me through that.
And then I'll have both.
And both is better.
I'm hoping you don't feel like people are picking on you.
I would imagine you understand the relative attributes of a pistol and a rifle.
On any given day, the circumstances might favor one over the other.
There's a lot of "conventional wisdom" out there that doesn't match the experimental data.
Larry teaches pistol. He teaches effective use. He teaches strategy and tactics. Nonetheless, this does not mean that, given the choice, it is the best choice.
The gun you have is orders of magnitude better than the one you don't.
I can't recall where I've seen it, but I have seen a wall mount for a long gun. It keeps the gun up off the floor, prevents casual seizure, and secures it against inadvertent discharge.
I've seen them for rifles and shotguns.
I have also seen an over-the-door mount that does essentially the same thing.
I'm not properly trained in the use if a carbine for HD. There are things I know, and things I can figure out, but live action isn't the time for "figuring out" how to best use one.
I keep a pistol handy.
It's not ideal, but I have (for now) a better command of that than I do a rifle in CQB.
When I've trained -- at least to some minimal level -- with the carbine, it will become the primary.
If your circumstances dictate that your 1911 is what you can use, then by all means, avail yourself of that. There are many scenarios when it will be adequate or more than adequate.
If you have the option (by use of a wall mount, for example) to add a rifle or shotgun to your bag-o-tools, then it would seem prudent to do so.
I've watched this discussion go on for ten pages, seen the testimony that a rifle is preferred, and nonetheless know that, for myself, I'm just not ready for it yet.
The good news is that I know someone who can help me through that.
And then I'll have both.
And both is better.
bogie
Member
It all really boils down to "You cannot argue with Mr. Newton."
The only "rifle" I've got routinely sitting within arm's reach is a .357 lever gun carbine. And it'll still go through a few walls. Now, I _know_ I'm a good enough shot to not miss. Much.
Hence...
The go-to gun's a 12 gauge loaded with a pair of AA Featherweight light trap loads...
Everything else is contingency or backup.
The only "rifle" I've got routinely sitting within arm's reach is a .357 lever gun carbine. And it'll still go through a few walls. Now, I _know_ I'm a good enough shot to not miss. Much.
Hence...
The go-to gun's a 12 gauge loaded with a pair of AA Featherweight light trap loads...
Everything else is contingency or backup.
ctdonath
Member
You're right.
Now - how about you contemplate the wisdom of trying to change other people's minds, especially when that (from your perspective) means disarming those who believe life is worth defending?
Yes, they exist.
No, they likely won't give adequate warning.
Some of us have figured this out.
Some have not.
Finding out someone seriously wants to kill you is a really lousy time to start preparing.
I do have outstanding training. So do a great many people here.
We've studied the tools, and apparently you haven't. Yes a handgun can do the job, just nowhere near as effectively & reliably as a rifle or shotgun.
While arguing in this forum, you don't seem to realize that you are surrounded by people who have had people that wanted to kill them (deliberate or coincidental), who have outstanding training, and who have studied weapons and come to rational conclusions on what to prepare.
How about you?
Mine is.
Not so much that I'm a paranoid freak, it's just simply the most convenient & useful place to put it. For a HD gun, I just don't see why you would relyt on anything less anywhere else.
I can have it out & on target just as fast as you can allegedly get your 1911 out of the nightstand.
What I don't understand is why you're so adamant about tearing down those who would prepare a bit more. No, we're NOT talking about "claymores in the yard", we're talking about a tool merely ~3x bigger than what you deem acceptable, yet has ~10x the effectiveness. A long gun for home defense is not absurd: if anything, a handgun is the sillier choice precisely because it is designed to be "something, anywhere", while a rifle is "more, here".
ctdonath
Member
Oh, NOW you bring in some relevant details.
If you could secure it sufficiently, with access rate equal to your handgun, which would you rather have handy?
For those of us who do not have young children present, why not have a rifle handy?
If you could get a wall-mount thumbprint-opening lock for an AR15, would you use that?
Then stop arguing with people who HAVE played out possible reasonable scenarios in their heads, and concluded that a pistol alone is inadequate.
Think, don't just feel.
Jimmy Newman
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- 280
Bogie:
I would strongly urge you to reconsider your HD load for your shotgun.
Every person I have ever talked to who has made a study of terminal ballistics and the effectiveness of various weapons has said "Birdshot is for shooting birds, use buckshut or slugs." It is my understanding that birdshot (especially light loads in smaller shot, like light trap loads) only penetrates a couple of inches and is at least as likely to just piss someone off as to stop them.
I would strongly urge you to reconsider your HD load for your shotgun.
Every person I have ever talked to who has made a study of terminal ballistics and the effectiveness of various weapons has said "Birdshot is for shooting birds, use buckshut or slugs." It is my understanding that birdshot (especially light loads in smaller shot, like light trap loads) only penetrates a couple of inches and is at least as likely to just piss someone off as to stop them.
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ctdonath
Member
Obviously a bunch of other people don't. Considering some of the more recent posts (psych ward, kidnap-risk family), it's getting downright fascinating. You don't have to click on this thread.
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EricTheBarbarian
Member
Well if I only had money for one gun, it would be a rifle. If thats the only one I have, it looks pretty good for home defense. The rifle is the best all around for a wide variety of things although some may argue the shotgun is equally versatile, although you cant reach out at the ranges many rifles can.
It seems some are arguing in favor of handguns because that is all they have. That being the case, it ceertainly is your best option. That is different from being the best option, you understand?
Others seem to be arguing in favor of handguns because that is what they prefer. I'll argue your right to make that decision all day long. It doesn't make it the best option, though.
Others seem to be arguing that of the guns they own the handguns are thier best options. That may very well be. Again, that doesn't make it ther best option.
Others seem to be arguing in favor of handguns because they lack the training to use rifles and shotguns. Instead of obtaining that training they declare their best everyone's. Not so.
Others seem to be arguing commonly held "truths." Some I'd agree deserve that designation. Others make me wonder who is perpetuating these myths, why, and how to refute them to the point that they go away never to taint the discussion again. Berst options are very hit and miss here depending on which information has been processed as being correct.
Finally, and frustratingly, some seem to be arguing from positions barely removed from the anti-firearms movement. I think of them as the "compromise-movement," in that they advocate firearms ownership and usage in so far as it fits thier defined definition of appropriate use. Outside of that they often sound surprisingly like the antis.
Others seem to be arguing in favor of handguns because that is what they prefer. I'll argue your right to make that decision all day long. It doesn't make it the best option, though.
Others seem to be arguing that of the guns they own the handguns are thier best options. That may very well be. Again, that doesn't make it ther best option.
Others seem to be arguing in favor of handguns because they lack the training to use rifles and shotguns. Instead of obtaining that training they declare their best everyone's. Not so.
Others seem to be arguing commonly held "truths." Some I'd agree deserve that designation. Others make me wonder who is perpetuating these myths, why, and how to refute them to the point that they go away never to taint the discussion again. Berst options are very hit and miss here depending on which information has been processed as being correct.
Finally, and frustratingly, some seem to be arguing from positions barely removed from the anti-firearms movement. I think of them as the "compromise-movement," in that they advocate firearms ownership and usage in so far as it fits thier defined definition of appropriate use. Outside of that they often sound surprisingly like the antis.
I hate to admit this but after following this thread and really considering things I may just have to go out and buy some kind of new M4gery or the like. While I have far more guns than I could ever drag to the range without hiring sherpas. Most of my arsenal consists of Pistolas and all my rifles are levers or bolts or doubles--with plenty of stopping power. I don't however want to be working a bolt or jacking with a lever. --Hence another reason currently using the ole 45'. So you all did it my mind has been changed. Damnit I hate it when that happens! On a related note yesterday while looking for a suitable rifle I bought another pistol.
Bazooka Joe71
Member
Correia,
I recall somewhere in this endless abyss of posts that if you could "change at least one person's mind about handgun vs. rifle for HD" then you did your job...
Job well done.
I recall somewhere in this endless abyss of posts that if you could "change at least one person's mind about handgun vs. rifle for HD" then you did your job...
Job well done.
ctdonath
Member
Yay!
There is ONE and only ONE advantage to a handgun.
however, it is a big advantage.
Handgun design puts portability above all else. A handgun is a size that you can strap to your waste and have with you, or even stick the back of your pants or strap to your ankle or hide down by your privates, or stick in a backpack, breifcase, glove compartment, center consol...or a nightstand.
Having ANY gun when a gun is needed is a GOOD THING. Sure, having the perfect gun is better. Still, if you are more likely to have the handgun on you or close to you due to it's small size, then that is the right choice for your situation.
The handgun you hide by your side when opening the door a crack late at night will do you more good than the AR-15 in your closet upstairs.
however, it is a big advantage.
Handgun design puts portability above all else. A handgun is a size that you can strap to your waste and have with you, or even stick the back of your pants or strap to your ankle or hide down by your privates, or stick in a backpack, breifcase, glove compartment, center consol...or a nightstand.
Having ANY gun when a gun is needed is a GOOD THING. Sure, having the perfect gun is better. Still, if you are more likely to have the handgun on you or close to you due to it's small size, then that is the right choice for your situation.
The handgun you hide by your side when opening the door a crack late at night will do you more good than the AR-15 in your closet upstairs.
ctdonath
Member
The AR-15 in my closet upstairs is for when the person cracking opening the door late at night isn't me or my wife.
Yes, a handgun should be at your side at all times - because it's just too dang inconvenient to drag a rifle around everywhere.
The rifle is for that place I spend 1/3rd of my life: knowing I'll be there, it's convenient to keep more firepower handy during that period than just a wimpy little handgun.
Yes, a handgun should be at your side at all times - because it's just too dang inconvenient to drag a rifle around everywhere.
The rifle is for that place I spend 1/3rd of my life: knowing I'll be there, it's convenient to keep more firepower handy during that period than just a wimpy little handgun.
So why then do you have a wimpy rifle, if that's your concern?
Seriously, a 1 3/8" 12 Gauge Buckhammer slug out to 150 yards makes a .223 round look like the prairie dog round that it is. Why not use that instead? What about a .300 Win Mag for longer distances? Screw that -- make it a .460 Weatherby! THAT'LL stop the bad guy!
What's my point? EVERY decision involves several factors. One's skill with a handgun is one of them, too. If you are much more confident in being able to hit something with a carbine, then it's a better choice even for close-range defense. The power of the ammo is not the only factor in the decision.
The problem with this thread is that it seems to have morphed from good answers to "Why use a rifle?" to "a handgun is less effective for self-defense than a potato peeler!" That's, of course, hogwash, demonstrable by statistics.
Sniper X
Member
If you check with all three main firearms training facilities in the nation, you would find all three say the handgun is the first weapon of choice for home defense even if all three, shotgun, handgun, and carbine are available. All three do have their merits, but in the city, I would choose a handgun any second over the other two. But, there are situations where you may need the others.....
I know a lot of instructors at the various shooting schools. Which three training facilities say the handgun is the first choice? I'll be glad to give them a call, because that's not what any of them say that I'm aware of.
Maybe you mean Clint "A handgun is for fighting your way to your rifle" Smith of Thunder Ranch? Because it certainly isn't from Gunsite (see Booner's earlier post where they tested 5.56 penetration in building materials), or any other major training operation that I'm aware of. I'm pretty sure Pat Rogers would tell you to take the carbine. So what three major schools say handgun is #1?
Armedbear, nobody is saying handguns aren't lethal, or can't do the job. (my gosh, I've said that like 75 times in this thread). And I've got no problem with slugs either, provided that you live in an area where massive overpenetration isn't an issue. Slugs rock.
.338 Lapua.
Like I've said about two dozen times now, pick the right tool for the job.- Status
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