I don't quite understand using a rifle for home defense
- Thread starter ShooterMcGavin
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What would that prove? We all agree handguns can be lethal and life savers. I believe you should be looking for the number of people wounded or killed because their weapon didn't force their attacker to stop and what weapon they were using.
There are a ton of close quarters rifle classes.
OK Guys here is the solution -----A pistol and a rifle with high cap mags! TA DA problem solved. If no NFA rules applied so I didn't have to deal with the tax stamp etc a full auto MP5 would be my choice.
I don't really see the likelihood of needing more rounds than the 7 with my old 1911. But if I am ever attacked by Chechen rebels I will have to fight my way to the safe. I feel proficient enough to fight my way to a rifle. And if I start out with a rifle they won't get close enough to need my pistol.
I also don't think there is a real high chance of a SHTF happening very soon. The deprivation of gun rights to the nation is considerably more likely.
I think this place has been invaded by more than one Mall Ninja! If I had to bet half these folks don't even own the guns they are so vehemently arguing for. There I said it!
I am sure several of you are walking as well as talking though and there have been some good points made.
I don't really see the likelihood of needing more rounds than the 7 with my old 1911. But if I am ever attacked by Chechen rebels I will have to fight my way to the safe. I feel proficient enough to fight my way to a rifle. And if I start out with a rifle they won't get close enough to need my pistol.
I also don't think there is a real high chance of a SHTF happening very soon. The deprivation of gun rights to the nation is considerably more likely.
I think this place has been invaded by more than one Mall Ninja! If I had to bet half these folks don't even own the guns they are so vehemently arguing for. There I said it!
I am sure several of you are walking as well as talking though and there have been some good points made.
Woof,
I don't know where you'd find good statistics on that, but you can read a compilation of news articles about people legally using firearms in self defense at Clayton Cramer's gun defense blog:
http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/blogger.html
There are tons of stories and they add new ones every day. Unfortunately they don't always say what kind of guns are used. But for the most part, from what I've read, I'd have to agree that handguns are most often used. I wouldn't say it is 10 to 1 though.
But even if they are used in 90% of the cases, it doesn't mean they are anyway superior to long guns for HD. It's just like you said, a lot of people don't have .223 carbines. The statistic to look at is in the cases where handguns were used, what percent were successful? Then in the cases where long guns were used, what percent were successful? It would also be interesting to see which was more often taken from the defender and used against him.
I've been to some firearms classes at Front Sight. They have a four day tactical shotgun class and a four day practical rifle class that would cover home defense very nicely. It is true that by far the majority of the people they teach are taking their defensive handgun classes though.
I assume your support for more stringent gun control was referring to the pending assault weapons ban? There was a time when I didn't see any need for a semi auto, military carbine, and didn't mind the idea of an assault weapons ban. Didn't bother me, I didn't have any or want any. But over the years I have come to realize that an assault weapons ban attacks the very heart and purpose of the second ammendment, and would essentially nullify it. We need your support on this one, woof.
I don't know where you'd find good statistics on that, but you can read a compilation of news articles about people legally using firearms in self defense at Clayton Cramer's gun defense blog:
http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/blogger.html
There are tons of stories and they add new ones every day. Unfortunately they don't always say what kind of guns are used. But for the most part, from what I've read, I'd have to agree that handguns are most often used. I wouldn't say it is 10 to 1 though.
But even if they are used in 90% of the cases, it doesn't mean they are anyway superior to long guns for HD. It's just like you said, a lot of people don't have .223 carbines. The statistic to look at is in the cases where handguns were used, what percent were successful? Then in the cases where long guns were used, what percent were successful? It would also be interesting to see which was more often taken from the defender and used against him.
I've been to some firearms classes at Front Sight. They have a four day tactical shotgun class and a four day practical rifle class that would cover home defense very nicely. It is true that by far the majority of the people they teach are taking their defensive handgun classes though.
I assume your support for more stringent gun control was referring to the pending assault weapons ban? There was a time when I didn't see any need for a semi auto, military carbine, and didn't mind the idea of an assault weapons ban. Didn't bother me, I didn't have any or want any. But over the years I have come to realize that an assault weapons ban attacks the very heart and purpose of the second ammendment, and would essentially nullify it. We need your support on this one, woof.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
...are there any instruction classes available anywhere on how to defend oneself inside the home specifically with a long gun?
Oh, only a few hundred or so. Any search engine will locate them for you (just type in home defense carbine training or home defense shotgun training), but here are a few just in case your google-fu is weak:
http://www.nrahq.org/education/training/basictraining.asp
http://www.aware.org/courses/defnsvshotgun.shtml
http://www.sigarms.com/EducationTraining/Courses/ShowCourseDetails.aspx?cid=59&ccid=12
http://www.personaldefensetraining....hp&PHPSESSID=05371197a9690db98f209934f7e05c88
http://www.firearmsacademy.com/Lv1Rifle.htm
http://www.firearmz.net/BasicCarbineOp.html
You know, I'm beginning to believe that the truest words ever posted on THR were "I don't quite understand using a rifle for home defense... ."
lpl/nc
Oh, only a few hundred or so. Any search engine will locate them for you (just type in home defense carbine training or home defense shotgun training), but here are a few just in case your google-fu is weak:
http://www.nrahq.org/education/training/basictraining.asp
http://www.aware.org/courses/defnsvshotgun.shtml
http://www.sigarms.com/EducationTraining/Courses/ShowCourseDetails.aspx?cid=59&ccid=12
http://www.personaldefensetraining....hp&PHPSESSID=05371197a9690db98f209934f7e05c88
http://www.firearmsacademy.com/Lv1Rifle.htm
http://www.firearmz.net/BasicCarbineOp.html
You know, I'm beginning to believe that the truest words ever posted on THR were "I don't quite understand using a rifle for home defense... ."
lpl/nc
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Nine pages?
My main concern is to get him close enough to the front door so I can drag him onto the porch before the carpet's all messed up. My wife would be so MAD! if the carpet got all bloody. A .22 rimfire would probably be the least mess.
Priorities. Always priorities.
Art
My main concern is to get him close enough to the front door so I can drag him onto the porch before the carpet's all messed up. My wife would be so MAD! if the carpet got all bloody. A .22 rimfire would probably be the least mess.
Priorities. Always priorities.
Art
Whoa…..
Back the cart up a bit.
Woof,
I really don’t care if my comments are taken as High Road, Low Road, or Middle or The Road. I’ve counted to ten, ran some errands, and still… nothing.
I’m going to say this to you like I’d say it to anyone else. If I get a Mod Slap for what I write, so be it. I’ll get over it.
*** is wrong with you? Seriously. No, I really mean it. Grow the $%&@ up.
Woof wrote:
You are entitled to your opinion. I am sure that there are things that you prefer that would cause more than a few people to draw conclusions about you. That is called “individuality.”
Woof wrote:
I wish that were true. My friend, I lived through Katrina. My parents lived through Camille. As much as you may wish it to be so, bad things DO happen.
Here’s one for you. A number of years ago, I physically prevented my sister from being raped in the front lawn of our rural home by two men driving by on motorcycles with an…. gasp!.... AR-15.
Here is another. In December 2006, our home was broken into.
The year before, I prevented a burglary at my father’s when a man was attempting to steal his boat at 2 AM. I was using… (Oh for the love of god!) an AK-47.
And no, I DO own and carry handguns. Anytime I have to check our property, I have one on my hip—with a rifle in my hands.
Woof wrote:
What the hell are you talking about? If you want to save your sanity, see a therapist. If you want to save your soul, see a priest. But it seems that you are making some serious assumptions here. Physician, heal thyself.
Woof wrote:
What? You got your feelings hurt because someone didn’t think that handguns are the best thing since sliced bread so you get your panties in a wad? You actually alter your position on rights based on getting your FEELINGS HURT?
Again. *** is wrong with you?
What, honestly, do YOU care what I prefer? Why should I really care what you prefer? Frankly, I don’t. Live and let live.
But that isn’t what you said.
You actually are leaning towards supporting a BAN on what OTHERS do based solely on your preference? Nowhere has there been mentioned here anything that would be a basis for BANNING anything.
If you get to it, your handgun is just as at risk as any Evil Black Rifle. There are those that would like to see handguns banned over anything else.
Bottom line. If my life or my family is at risk, I will grab anything I can to protect them. It may be a handgun or it may be a rifle. WHO CARES. The end result that they are not harmed is the only argument I need.
You want to control our fringe elements? It sounds a lot like you want to legislate your preferences. Get over yourself. You are not the authority of what is acceptable or not. Your position is not infallible. You are not all-knowing and all-seeing. And neither am I.
The big difference between you and me is that *I* have not suggested limiting others’ rights based upon MY preferences.
I seriously hope you realize what you are saying and the implications of such a manner of thought.
This world would be a lot better a place if everyone would spend a lot more time worrying about themselves and a lot less about what others are doing.
-- John Warren
Back the cart up a bit.
Woof,
I really don’t care if my comments are taken as High Road, Low Road, or Middle or The Road. I’ve counted to ten, ran some errands, and still… nothing.
I’m going to say this to you like I’d say it to anyone else. If I get a Mod Slap for what I write, so be it. I’ll get over it.
*** is wrong with you? Seriously. No, I really mean it. Grow the $%&@ up.
Woof wrote:
You are entitled to your opinion. I am sure that there are things that you prefer that would cause more than a few people to draw conclusions about you. That is called “individuality.”
Woof wrote:
I wish that were true. My friend, I lived through Katrina. My parents lived through Camille. As much as you may wish it to be so, bad things DO happen.
Here’s one for you. A number of years ago, I physically prevented my sister from being raped in the front lawn of our rural home by two men driving by on motorcycles with an…. gasp!.... AR-15.
Here is another. In December 2006, our home was broken into.
The year before, I prevented a burglary at my father’s when a man was attempting to steal his boat at 2 AM. I was using… (Oh for the love of god!) an AK-47.
And no, I DO own and carry handguns. Anytime I have to check our property, I have one on my hip—with a rifle in my hands.
Woof wrote:
What the hell are you talking about? If you want to save your sanity, see a therapist. If you want to save your soul, see a priest. But it seems that you are making some serious assumptions here. Physician, heal thyself.
Woof wrote:
What? You got your feelings hurt because someone didn’t think that handguns are the best thing since sliced bread so you get your panties in a wad? You actually alter your position on rights based on getting your FEELINGS HURT?
Again. *** is wrong with you?
What, honestly, do YOU care what I prefer? Why should I really care what you prefer? Frankly, I don’t. Live and let live.
But that isn’t what you said.
You actually are leaning towards supporting a BAN on what OTHERS do based solely on your preference? Nowhere has there been mentioned here anything that would be a basis for BANNING anything.
If you get to it, your handgun is just as at risk as any Evil Black Rifle. There are those that would like to see handguns banned over anything else.
Bottom line. If my life or my family is at risk, I will grab anything I can to protect them. It may be a handgun or it may be a rifle. WHO CARES. The end result that they are not harmed is the only argument I need.
You want to control our fringe elements? It sounds a lot like you want to legislate your preferences. Get over yourself. You are not the authority of what is acceptable or not. Your position is not infallible. You are not all-knowing and all-seeing. And neither am I.
The big difference between you and me is that *I* have not suggested limiting others’ rights based upon MY preferences.
I seriously hope you realize what you are saying and the implications of such a manner of thought.
This world would be a lot better a place if everyone would spend a lot more time worrying about themselves and a lot less about what others are doing.
-- John Warren
Evil Monkey
member
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2006
- Messages
- 1,486
Absolutely. I'd go for a suppressed MAC-10 myself.
But that's not the reality, unfortunately. So you look at other choices, and those choices are pistol, rifle, shotgun.
I wouldn't use a pistol because it's not shoulder-able and I live in a decent sized house so moving around isn't a problem. I don't hunt, shoot trap/skeet/clay/pigeon/whatever, so I don't feel the need to waste money on a shotgun and that leaves me with the rifle. I like assault rifles very much and if I was going to spend any amount of money then it would be on a rifle like an AR15 or the new TDP-AXR(US made AUG that uses STANAG magazines).
Well that worked out for me! Good luck to you guys!
woof
Member
JWarren, No need to mince words, just come out and say what's on your mind
woof
Member
The part where I'm entitled to my opinion. Thanks for your support.
Oh, you are-- as are we all.
And once you introduce them into public discourse, we are entitled to give peer review wherein I have no reservations in saying that they are stinking up the place.
Understand this. Opinions are one thing. Your opinion advocates a position that DIRECTLY impact thousands of lawful gun owners. You "opinion" transcends thought into the realm of action when you speak of legislation.
Sadly, your motive seems largely based upon your preferences and getting miffed with some of the posters here. Neither are valid reasons and are suggestive of an overly-emotional approach to the issue with not one sliver of rational thought or reasoning.
-- John
tydephan
Member
Well...I've done well to stay out of this one all this time, but can resist no longer.
Isn't it real simple?
Use as much as you can.
If an evil-doing bad dude invades my space, he would get a TOW missile if I had one available and could get to it quickly.
Chances are good that I'll grab my rifle.
If not, then I may have to settle for my sucky handgun.
Isn't it real simple?
Use as much as you can.
If an evil-doing bad dude invades my space, he would get a TOW missile if I had one available and could get to it quickly.
Chances are good that I'll grab my rifle.
If not, then I may have to settle for my sucky handgun.
Cosmoline
Member
Using a rifle for self defense is an "extreme fringe"? That's odd. Esp. since it will be the HANDGUNS the gun control movement goes after first. I'm also not clear what your whole "inner demons" comment is about. Do you mean that someone who would use a long gun for self defense is somehow mentally inferior or disturbed? I really don't see the connection myself. They're just tools.
woof
Member
Here's what inner demons meant:
I think most people in America would agree that a concern about self defense (and maybe being armed) is reasonable. I think they would also agree that there "are" those individuals who have gotten a bit over the top about it. There are those on this board that seem to spend hours each day pondering and planning and fantasizing about when that fateful day will come and they will be center stage in an urban combat drama. You could call that preparedness or you could call it paranoia and obsession. They yearn for that day and they will be disappointed every day it doesn't happen. My point is that the threat they really face is coming from the inside and they are completely unarmed to combat that. My further point is that they will ultimately do more to undermine gun rights than the Brady bunch.
I think most people in America would agree that a concern about self defense (and maybe being armed) is reasonable. I think they would also agree that there "are" those individuals who have gotten a bit over the top about it. There are those on this board that seem to spend hours each day pondering and planning and fantasizing about when that fateful day will come and they will be center stage in an urban combat drama. You could call that preparedness or you could call it paranoia and obsession. They yearn for that day and they will be disappointed every day it doesn't happen. My point is that the threat they really face is coming from the inside and they are completely unarmed to combat that. My further point is that they will ultimately do more to undermine gun rights than the Brady bunch.
Ohio Rifleman
Member
I planned on staying out of all this, but I had to say something.
Who gave you the impression that they WANT to be involved in a shooting situation? Wanting to be PREPARED should such a thing happen is not the same as wishing every day that it would happen.
Redneck with a 40
Member
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2006
- Messages
- 2,273
I've got an M-1 Carbine that would make an excellent home defense weapon. I've got 4 (15) round magazines for it, its very compact, lightweight, 18 inch barrel, and out to 100 yards, the 30 carbine packs a wallop. I'm sure at close range, under 25 yards, it would be devastating. Its a very handy little carbine.
Woof,
It sounds like you are saying that what most of America thinks determines whether or not somebody has inner demons.
I'll agree that a lot of what we see on this forum might be viewed as paranoia by a lot, if not most of Americans, but that doesn't make it wrong, or extreme.
The history of the world has proven time and again that it is prudent for individuals to keep themselves well armed. In this day and age, that means semi-automatic weapons with high capacity magazines. It may well be true that most of America doesn't see it that way, but the majority opinion isn't always the correct opinion.
And is it really paranoia to be afraid of an oppressive or tyrranical government when there is a bill currently being reviewed by congress that would let the government effectively disarm it's people? Especially when considering that a previous assault weapons ban was successfully passed?
Is it really paranoia to be concerned that anything like the mass shootings we have heard about, or the L.A. Riots, or the Katrina looting and murdering might really happen, and we might be involved?
I for one am thankful for people who spend time preparing for that. I think America would be a lot better off if more people did.
It sounds like you are saying that what most of America thinks determines whether or not somebody has inner demons.
I'll agree that a lot of what we see on this forum might be viewed as paranoia by a lot, if not most of Americans, but that doesn't make it wrong, or extreme.
The history of the world has proven time and again that it is prudent for individuals to keep themselves well armed. In this day and age, that means semi-automatic weapons with high capacity magazines. It may well be true that most of America doesn't see it that way, but the majority opinion isn't always the correct opinion.
And is it really paranoia to be afraid of an oppressive or tyrranical government when there is a bill currently being reviewed by congress that would let the government effectively disarm it's people? Especially when considering that a previous assault weapons ban was successfully passed?
Is it really paranoia to be concerned that anything like the mass shootings we have heard about, or the L.A. Riots, or the Katrina looting and murdering might really happen, and we might be involved?
I for one am thankful for people who spend time preparing for that. I think America would be a lot better off if more people did.
Matt, you can get a 5.56 Saiga for $290.
I'm also the guy that got the Activism forum going on this board.
So I'm gonna go out on a limb, and say that you've got no flipping clue what you're talking about.
And that there is where you demonstrate that you've been a member here for absolutely no time at all. Since I'm apparently your nemesis somehow, just so you know, I've done a few little bitty tiny things for gun rights. I don't know how many times you've testified before your state senate about gun issues, but I have, as a subject matter expert. THR members on here have heard the recordings of my testimony in legislative sessions arguing for gun rights.
I'm also the guy that got the Activism forum going on this board.
So I'm gonna go out on a limb, and say that you've got no flipping clue what you're talking about.
You could call it a magic unicorn too. Don't mean it is.
But you seem to want to be the authority on what is reasonable. Seems like a control ISSUE to me.
And what a law-abiding citizen does in their privacy affects you how? Control issue, again.
You are assuming much as to what others are thinking. I have prepared for natural disasters that I HAVE lived through. I hardly want to go through that again.
And what I do in the privacy of my home in a legal manner affects you how, again? Control issue.
More assumptions, oh omnipotent one.
BS. I live a nice life and have lots of friends. I have a thriving investment management practice and come home to a loving wife and two wonderful Jack Russell Terriers. My mental state isn't in question, and nor is it one that you are qualified to consider.
Again, we are not the ones advocating things to attempt to control others. Issues? Everyone has SOME kind of issues. I'll take my addiction to Dark Roast over your control issues anyday.
In the end, it DOESN'T matter --except where you decided that you'd support legislation that directely affects MY life because you got your feelings hurt over that .22 rimfire you got there.
-- John
I have my M1A SOCOM #1 in the gun safe with the sling off. Its chamber is empty, safety is on, and the magazine is loaded with 10 rounds of 110 gr Hornady TAP followed by 8 rounds of Winchester 150gr soft-points.
It's really a bad HD gun but the best I can do right now. I haven't even fired the TAP to see if it's reliable. I'll try it out when I go to the range next week.
I'm in one of the safest places in the country though so I'm not worried about it.
It's really a bad HD gun but the best I can do right now. I haven't even fired the TAP to see if it's reliable. I'll try it out when I go to the range next week.
I'm in one of the safest places in the country though so I'm not worried about it.
How long can this go? I don't think anyones mind is going to change!
I am sure that next there will be people on this board advocating the use of claymore mines for home defense.
For Pete's sake unless you have people that seriously want to kill you and have outstanding training your threats can be neutralized with a handgun.
I actually was thinking about this last night when my wife got up and woke me up in the middle of the night. My sleepy ass with my arms half asleep probably wouldn't be able to get to an AR unless it was racked right next to my bed. I can however open the nightstand and grab the ole 1911er. If I used a glock I wouldn't even have to worry about an external safety.
I think when you 5.56 and .223 cowboys really need your guns you are going to be sad to find out that the intruder is on you before you can.
I am sure that next there will be people on this board advocating the use of claymore mines for home defense.
For Pete's sake unless you have people that seriously want to kill you and have outstanding training your threats can be neutralized with a handgun.
I actually was thinking about this last night when my wife got up and woke me up in the middle of the night. My sleepy ass with my arms half asleep probably wouldn't be able to get to an AR unless it was racked right next to my bed. I can however open the nightstand and grab the ole 1911er. If I used a glock I wouldn't even have to worry about an external safety.
I think when you 5.56 and .223 cowboys really need your guns you are going to be sad to find out that the intruder is on you before you can.
sm
member
nevermind
Last edited:
I've got a couple of people who don't understand anything at all about shooting, tactics, ballistics, fighting, wounding mechanisms, or the fundamentals of basic debate, arguing with a bunch of people who do. Why don't you tell me how long you think it can go on?
Once again, that's a Strawman argument. Make up something absurd, and then assign it to your opponent. Pathetic.
Dude, you don't seem to realize. When you're legally justified in shooting someone in self defense, that's BECAUSE THEY SERIOUSLY WANT TO KILL YOU. That's why it is called self defense. There are a bunch of people on this thread who've dealt with this.
Outstanding training? Like the rapist in Florida who took 4 pistol rounds from a woman in her own home, and he managed to beat her for TWENTY MINUTES before expiring from blood loss. Her face was so horribly disfigured that the responding officers and paramedics openly wept. (see Best Defense - Robert Waters) Guess how much training the rapist had? Zero. Evil can make up for a lot of skill.
I once stuck a gun in a man's face and made him surrender, because he was going to kill another man over an argument about a TREE! I didn't imagine this. It wasn't paranoia. It happened in a small town in the desert. But I stopped an assault in progress against an innocent man, over the placing of a shade tree! So yes, francis, there are people who will kill you and hurt you for the hell of it, or because the voices in their head told them to, or because it makes them happy. The logical ones just want to hurt you to take your stuff or have their way with you.
And believe me. When time dialates down to just you and the crazy guy with the gun, and the adrenalin is pounding through you, and suddenly you're shaking, and your bowels clinch up, and your body forgets to breath, and you can't hear right, and the gun is coming up toward you, at that crystal clear moment frozen forever in time, you don't care if it is a fair fight, or that you have more gun than the other guy, or that your gun is overkill, you just want it to stop RIGHT NOW!
And guess what? Handguns suck at that moment in time. Those of us who've been in that frozen moment would have loved to have a gun that was more powerful, easier to hit with, held more ammo, and was an overall superior package in every way at stopping the guy who had decided to kill you.
I know that your handgun is really awesome in counterstrike, but take the word of people that shoot people for a living, if you've got a choice, take the long gun!
Think harder, 'cause you're still wrong.
So let me get this right... Because you're poorly trained and poorly prepared, then by extension we also must be just as pathetic? Your sleepy arms are unable to operate the easiest weapon to get hits with, but you would totally be able to use the most difficult of all weapons to use under stress?
Have you actually shot a gun under stress, or do you just assume that somehow your body is going to magically rise to the occasion? Got news for you man, you never rise to the occassion, you default to your lowest level of training.
Because you're not creative enough to store your rifle in a ready, but safe manner, then we should assume that the rest of us are too dumb to have thought this through?
Ironic, read sm's post above. You've made up your gunfight, and you're playing it out in your head. By the way, pay attention to what sm says, because he's seen more violence in action than 99.9% of the people that post here.
Once again, just because you can't figure out how to defend yourself doesn't mean the rest of us are stupid. And I'm pretty sure most of us delusional, paranoid, black-souled, murderous devils, are clever enough to have a secondary weapon system available too.
So now we've come full circle to the Brady Center style argument, so let me sum this up for you guys.
-Your guns are too powerful
-Your guns scare me
-I don't know how to use your guns
-If I had such a powerful weapon, I would be unsafe with it
-If I had such a powerful weapon, I would use it irresponsibly
-Therefore scary guns make me uncomfortable
-Therefore they are bad
-(and in the case of Wolf, and following this screed to its inevitable conclusion) my feelings mean that your guns should be regulated
You are making the same analogies as the Brady Bunch. If somebody is more prepared than you. Then they're paranoid. If they are better trained than you, then they're "looking for trouble" or "praying for confrontation". Because we're prepared to use overwhelming violence to defend our loved ones, then we have a "sickness of the soul".
Ironically, I've heard every single one of those before. But they came from people and politicians looking to ban guns...
Ironic.
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