Home Defense Question for My Wife

[CTGunner]

My wife isn't interested in carrying a gun on her person in the house but would like to have access to a gun when I'm not home, especially at night. We have kids in the house so leaving a gun loaded and unsecured isn't an option. She isn't 'into' guns so I really want to keep the gun, gun location, and gun safety setup as simple as possible.

How Do I Secure The Gun
My thought is to purchase a "GunVault" style mini safe (they are about $100 dollars) and mount it somewhere in the bedroom. However, I have a major concern with this and I'm hoping/wondering if you guys have suggestions. Are the "GunVaults" reliable. A number of years ago I owned a similar electronic handgun safe made by Winchester (or at least branded Winchester). I used it every day in the morning and at night to retrieve my carry gun. I always changed the batteries at regular intervals. It worked well for about a year and then one morning after punching in the code it wouldn't open - it just made a grinding noise. The only way I could get it open was with the master key. I called Winchester and they sent me a new one. The new one last for about 6 months and the same exact thing happened. I didn't ask Winchester for another one.

So, I can envision a scenario where my wife actually needs the gun and the mini safe won't open. So, does anyone have a "GunVault" and are they reliable? Is there a better option that I'm not aware of that is as secure and as simple to use that is totally reliable. This may seem like an odd question but to me having an unreliable mini safe defeats the purpose of having a reliable gun.

We need to go with a handgun. This is what she's comfortable with. A shotgun isn't going to work because we don't have a place for her to shoot it and practice.

We already have the other HD angles covered - alarm, dog, locks, good lighting etc. This question is really about the gun.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

I've had a GunVault Deluxe for about a dozen years. It was sent to my by the manufacturer for destructive test and evaluation. I've held it over my head and dropped it onto concrete. I've frozen it for days in the freezer. I took it on travel with me once (so I wouldn't annoy my wife) so I could set my alarm clock to go off at 3 AM to wake me out of a dead sleep (every night for a week) to try and open it. I put a $20 dollar bill inside and told my young daughters (at the time) they could have it if they could get it open (they were unsuccessful but I gave them $10 each for the effort afterward). I operated the electronic keypad combination lock for well over a year's worth of everyday use to see how it affected battery life (it didn't). Afterward I left the same batteries in it to see just how long they'd last (about 8 years). I disassembled what I could of it to see how it was constructed and to look for weak points. I also tried prying it open.

There are only three times it didn't open for me in those 12 years: 1) when I froze it, 2) when I left the original batteries in it for about 8 years to see how long they'd last, and 3) when I tried prying it open.

It's a little banged-up from dropping it several times on concrete but still it's as reliable as ever.

Good luck!

 

[GDownRange]

V-Line

I had a similar experience with a battery operated nightstand safe. Within the first year of use the safe failed to open. For the last 2 years I have been using a V-Line Top Drawer box. V-Line makes a few other designs, but as the name indicates the Top Drawer works well in a nightstand drawer.

http://www.vlineind.com/html/top_draw.html

I like the V-Line because of the mechanical lock. In my opinion mechanical locks are more reliable than their battery operated counterparts. Like any of the mini "safes" I wouldn't call it a safe. It's more of a lock box. It appears to be well built. I'm pretty confident that it will keep the kids out, and open when I need it.

 

[CTGunner]

Thank you Shawn. That's very interesting and quite reassuring. Based on your post I feel pretty good about picking one up.

 

[Onward Allusion]

CTGunner
Home Defense Question for My Wife
My wife isn't interested in carrying a gun on her person in the house but would like to have access to a gun when I'm not home, especially at night. We have kids in the house so leaving a gun loaded and unsecured isn't an option. She isn't 'into' guns so I really want to keep the gun, gun location, and gun safety setup as simple as possible.

How Do I Secure The Gun
My thought is to purchase a "GunVault" style mini safe<SNIP>

Your wife carrying on her person is the safest method for your kids and her. I have found that it is very hard to convince a person to carry while at home. Some of it is the stigma associated - i.e. paranoia. Others think that they can always get to their gun if someone broke in. Still others will say it is uncomfortable.

All of the rationalizations are incorrect. One is most vulnerable at home - for example, sitting in front of the TV when someone kicks down the door. There is no way I could get to my nightstand gun if that happened to me. Instead, I would be firing at the door as I'm running upstairs. As for being uncomfortable, some of the pocket pistols are about as heavy as a Smartphone. Also, it is only paranoia until it a home invasion happens.

Going back to your gun vault question. Personally, I would stay away from anything electronic. The biometric vaults are still not ready for prime time. Heck, the laptop I'm typing on right now has a fingerprint scanner. Guess what, it still takes a few seconds for it to unlock the laptop. Other times, if your fingers are dirty, it doesn't recognize. This is on a laptop with a pretty darn fast CPU and the latest greatest technology - that beats the CPU and technology in a gun vault.

Stick to the 3 to 4 digit combo or the mechanical "hand-print" type of lockbox. Here's a trick on the combo lock for quick access. Change only one number. For example, if your combo is 8732 - set your "locked" sequence to 8742. This way, you will only have to change one number to open the box. It's a simple but effective method to cut down the combo entry time.

 

[zoom6zoom]

Honestly, if it's for home use only and she isn't going to carry it, I would suggest a shotgun rather than a pistol.

 

[FAS1]

I think the mechanical push-button (Simplex style) locks are hard to beat for proven reliabilty and quick access even in the dark since they are designed to be opened just by feel.

Video Clip

 

[autospike]

I've had 3 electronic boxes fail (2 Gunvaults and one Stack On). I will not own another.

Look for a box with a mechanical simplex style lock.

Edited to add:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/researchers-show-how-easy-it-is-for-toddlers-to-open-a-gun-safe/

 

[Texan Scott]

Mechanical push-button... you should have 2, one for the bedroom, and one for a kitchen cupboard, or other place AWAY from the front door. (You know how you're never supposed to keep a kitchen fire extinguisher in the kitchen, so you don't have to run INTO a burning kitchen to get it? If someone comes through the door, she'll want to FALL BACK to a gun.)
If you keep multiple first aid kits/ fire extinguishers in the house, consider keeping the guns there... commonality of training.

 

[Crusader103]

Honestly, if it's for home use only and she isn't going to carry it, I would suggest a shotgun rather than a pistol.

Why? Not only is the OPs original concern accessibility by children (they don't make many push button lock boxes for shotguns), but this advice is very impractical anyway. One must think beyond "stopping power" to the many other things that go on in a defensive situation. When you stop to think about the fact that you may have to corral multiple children in different areas of the home and call 911 at the same time, a shotgun doesn't seem so practical. It can be very difficult for the primary shooter in the home to do as much. It is unrealistic to believe that a less gun enthusiast inclined spouse will be able to wield a shotgun while handling children and holding a telephone.

As for the OPs question, I find that the smaller electronic push button type safes are generally very reliable. Put the key somewhere very close for emergency back-up use. While I would agree that nothing beats the speed of having a firearm on or about the person, it is simply not always practical, possible, or acceptable to the potential defender.

Assuming that the safe is readily accessible (one upstairs, one downstairs, etc) and that other measures of home hardening are in place (double locks, fencing, landscaping, etc) I would not be too concerned with the remote possiblity of the safe coincidentally choosing to fail at the very moment it is needed, Murphy's Law aside. Check it regularly and maintain it well. Especially with the key nearby as a back-up, it is highly unlikely that you should ever have cause for concern in that regard.

 

[CTGunner]

We need to go with a handgun. This is what she's comfortable with. A shotgun isn't going to work because we don't have a place for her to shoot it and practice.

Honestly, if it's for home use only and she isn't going to carry it, I would suggest a shotgun rather than a pistol.

Why? Not only is the OPs original concern accessibility by children (they don't make many push button lock boxes for shotguns), but this advice is very impractical anyway. One must think beyond "stopping power" to the many other things that go on in a defensive situation. When you stop to think about the fact that you may have to corral multiple children in different areas of the home and call 911 at the same time, a shotgun doesn't seem so practical. It can be very difficult for the primary shooter in the home to do as much. It is unrealistic to believe that a less gun enthusiast inclined spouse will be able to wield a shotgun while handling children and holding a telephone.

Thank you JSCOTT. I appreciate you weighing in on that. I wish I could say that I didn't see the shotgun recommendation coming. I know everyone is trying to be helpful but again, I've done the assessment and the shotgun isn't practical for my situation.

Next topic - now I need to put a gun in her hands that is ultra simple and will work every time without fail. The pull on a revolver is too heavy for her to be accurate, we tried so it's probably going to come down to a Glock, Springfield, or if can find one used an HK USP left in the gun vault hammer back and ready to go in Single Action.

Thanks again for all the thoughts.

 

[Lost Sheep]

Can't carry a gun? Carry a key.

A key on a necklace should not be too much trouble and does not depend on operating a keypad, batteries or remembering a combination.

Lost Sheep

 

[zoom6zoom]

The reasoning behind a shotgun recommendation was based on a few things in my experience. And the entire idea here is a free exchange of ideas that might result in something we hadn't thought of, right?
Anyway;
Easier to load for many women as a great number have problems with racking a pistol slide.
Often easier to gain basic proficiency with, especially when training time is limited.
Sight of a shotgun can be more psychologically threatening.
Generally harder to shoot yourself with it.
No, not lock boxes but many mounts that lock around the receiver and trigger.

OVerall I would try to get her to try a few things at the range and find what SHE is comfortable with.

 

[CTGunner]

And the entire idea here is a free exchange of ideas that might result in something we hadn't thought of, right?

I agree and I understand what you are saying. A shotgun could be a good option in the future for her in certain situations like at night when everyone is sleeping and everyone is in a known location. For now I need to start with an option that will work all the time day or night and that isn't too complicated to learn. While the pump was pretty simple for me to learn I have found that not everyone catches on as quickly as you might think - not short stroking and remembering to disengage the safety take some people more practice and more time to get used to and remember. A double barrel coach gun could work but then we are down to 2 rounds before reloading - and honestly in a high stress situation even I wouldn't want to be relying on only 2 rounds and then a two handed reload if I had another option.

Back to the handgun options - I think the simple solution for her is a Glock but I'm not 100% confident that under stress or in a struggle that the gun wouldn't be limp wristed. This has me looking at the HK and the Springfield XD.

I know the default here is 'training' and then more 'training' so that whichever firearm option is chosen its use will be second nature. I think we'll get there but it's going to take time.

 

[Derry 1946]

My kids are 2 and 4; I have a comparable issue. I pocket carry by day. At night, I use a Vaultz cash box with a 3-digit combo code. It is unlocked on the nightstand (latched). If one of the kids comes in I can scramble the lock instantly. I keep a few 38s and a 1911 and spare loaders/mags in there. (The other guns are locked up in a proper safe.) When I'm out, the whole Vaultz goes into a safe. They do make a long hardcase that holds a shotgun (folding stock) with a 3-digit code; that lives under the bed. Good luck and stay safe.

 

[Crusader103]

Back to the handgun options - I think the simple solution for her is a Glock but I'm not 100% confident that under stress or in a struggle that the gun wouldn't be limp wristed. This has me looking at the HK and the Springfield XD.

One of my very few complaints with the Glock are that it can be susceptible to limp wristing by smaller statured shooters. Yes, training is key and as an instructor, I highly promote that option, but a reduction in the corrective training that might be required is also a reasonable consideration.

I am hesitant to recommend the H&K, especially if it is a double action first shot that would be kept in single action mode, with the hammer back. Despite a lock box, traditional double action firearms are simply not designed to be carried and/or stored in that manner. Doing so can bypass internal safety mechanisms as well.

For a consistent trigger pull that can be most easily manipulated it sounds like the Springfield XD is the best of your considerations. While a very good gun, I would also let her try a Smith & Wesson M&P series firearm. The ergonomics of the grip and natural "pointability" are outstanding. Either way, because concealability is apparently not an issue, I would actually go with a full size in either brand rather than a compact, such as a full-size XDm or the S&W M&P Pro. They are generally easier to shoot than their compact brethern.

 

[DefiantDad]

hi jscott - may I ask what you meant here "...if it is a double action first shot that would be kept in single action mode, with the hammer back. Despite a lock box, traditional double action firearms are simply not designed to be carried and/or stored in that manner. Doing so can bypass internal safety mechanisms as well." You mean chambering a round, cocking the hammer, then put it on SAFE and leave in lockbox?

By the way folks, and this may be related to the above, I am in SOMEWHAT of a similar situation, because I am still not really sure what kind of protection I should be giving my wife when I am not at home and/or "out of action" especially when kids are running around. For those of us with kids running around, you know they are smart and get into everything. (e.g., all of us adults have to really hide our smartphones from the kids when we punch in the unlock codes because we have found that they either memorize or figure out your code sequence like those james bond spy movies we see; not to mention locked gun safes).

The problem is balancing the ease of firearm access for the wife when in an emergency, with the difficulty of access by kids.

This is compounded by the already-mentioned issue of limp wristing (probably applies to most semi-autos, not just Glock); I usually have to help my wife clear stovepipes every 50 rounds. ALSO she is not 100% capable of racking the slide. Maybe 90% but not 100% and I don't know how she will handle it under stress.

I have ruled out revolvers (don't want to get into it in this thread), and so at this point in time, I am wondering if a pistol carbine might not be the better choice. But then again, we are back to the kids-lock question. So, seems like the push/pull balance is again the kids versus wife versus crisis situation factors.

 

[Skribs]

I watched a video from some convention (not sure if it was a hacker or safe cracker or what) where the guy went through different quick-access safes looking for ways to get into them, either by picking the lock or prying it open, or if there was a way to reset the code from the outside. The only vulnerability in the Gunvault was that if you have a tubular lockpick, it's relatively simply to get into. But how many people breaking in are going to have thought ahead to bring a tubular lockpick, and how many of those aren't going to have access to their own weapon?

I own two and my parents have one, and they have been working flawlessly. I think it's a great system.

 

[CTGunner]

Update - Here's where we landed. Used Springfield Armory XD Tactical. I'll try to post up some picks later. The gun itself was $399 and I was able to add a TLR-1 to the deal and be out the door for $525. This worked out well because initially I had just budgeted $550 for a new gun (i.e. Glock or XDm). The recoil on the big XD Tactical with the light hung in front is really pretty tame. The gun also included 3 mags. What I liked most about it was the grip - I held it side-by-side with The Glock 21 Short Frame and there was still no comparison...the XD was just easier to grip. We put 200 rounds through it (We tried with and without the light attached) and there were zero malfunctions. I don't know if it's the perfect option but it was available, holds 13 rounds of .45, and for the price I was able to also get the light (which I think is critical). As a side note I really wanted to like the Glock 21 (I read all the torture tests etc.) but the grip was just too big. Hopefully the XD will hold up like a Glock and not give us any issues.

PS - I was torn on if .45 made sense for my wife but my understanding is that .45 HPs are less prone to over penetration than a comparable 9mm. I'm still looking for a security container for it and haven't decided which way to go. I stumbled on a company called truck vault and they make what appear to be some nice, though very expensive, mechanical quick access boxes.

 

[Texan Scott]

Good find! Now let the debate over weapon-mounted lights begin...
I don't like 'em, but understand there are valid points to be made for, as well as against, them.
TRAINING AND MINDSET are vitally important here (aren't they always?) Use the light to illuminate a KNOWN TARGET, but NEVER to identify an unknown person... if so, by the time your wife (who will be awakened in the middle of the night from a deep sleep and scared badly enough to have a loaded gun in her hands in deadly earnest in her own kitchen at 2am) realizes it's just you rummaging the fridge, she will have already covered you with the muzzle of a loaded .45. Here's hoping, at that point, that she's remembered to keep her finger off the trigger and not clench up at the first loud noise or sudden movement you make.

 

[76shuvlinoff]

No kids in our house anymore so we don't use a safe. The wife absolutely hates my autos and the 870 confounds her so a 4" .357 SP101 got a trigger job and she loves it. Better yet she shoots well with it.

I saw a comment above about hanging a key on a necklace. I've always been told fine motor skills are the first to go in a panic situation. I have a hard enough time with a key unlocking the barn in broad daylight. I would not want to deal with that while someone was putting a boot to the back door.

Just my .02

 

[Crusader103]

hi jscott - may I ask what you meant here "...if it is a double action first shot that would be kept in single action mode, with the hammer back. Despite a lock box, traditional double action firearms are simply not designed to be carried and/or stored in that manner. Doing so can bypass internal safety mechanisms as well." You mean chambering a round, cocking the hammer, then put it on SAFE and leave in lockbox?

Not quite. I simply mean that if the weapon is designed to be double action first shot and single action for each subsequent shot (think Beretta 92FS, S&W 5906, etc) that I would not recommend chambering and cocking the weapon (leaving the hammer back) and putting it in the safe, ready for action. While this would negate the difficulty of the double action first shot inherent in traditional double action autos, it is not by design their intended method of carry or storage.

By all means, chamber a round, yes, in any defensive handgun. If it is akin to a 1911 (designed for cocked and locked), then hammer back and safety on. If it is a traditional double action, leave the hammer down (which forces you to shoot double action first shot).

Sorry if there was any confusion.

Sounds like OP went with the XD, one of a few logical choices for someone that wants a consistent trigger pull but elects not to go with a 1911 design.

 

[Manco]

In my opinion mechanical locks are more reliable than their battery operated counterparts.

Agreed, mechanical locks are more reliable than electronic locks, and they do not require you to keep a backup key handy. Manufacturers such as V-Line, FAS1, and Fort Knox offer quality pistol lockboxes equipped with Simplex mechanical locks. Of these, the FAS1 is the strongest and of the best quality, but choose whichever design best meets your needs overall.

(they don't make many push button lock boxes for shotguns)

Here is one, for example (albeit a bit pricey):

http://www.ftknox.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=59&product_id=59

I agree with you that shotguns have their own disadvantages, though.

As for the OPs question, I find that the smaller electronic push button type safes are generally very reliable. Put the key somewhere very close for emergency back-up use.

The reason you need a backup key at all is that even the manufacturers acknowledge that electronic locks are relatively prone to failure for one reason or another (it's not that they fail very frequently, but frequently enough). They also require more maintenance--not a lot of work involved, but it's one more thing to worry about and one more thing that could go wrong. If you're going to keep a backup key handy anyway, just in case, then why not simply use a key with a much more economical non-electronic lockbox?

The reason for using a combination lock is so that you do not need to keep a key handy, which is a good thing because such keys could be found by those who are not authorized to access the weapon (e.g. children). Therefore, in my view, the only truly practical combination locks are ones that are reliable enough not to need a backup key, such as a Simplex mechanical lock.

In light of the above, electronic lockboxes with backup keys just don't make sense--they're kind of cool, in a way, but are the poorest basic design, which is then compounded by the poor (and relatively weak) detailed design of just about every electronic lockbox available on the market. I'm sure that they work fine for most people most of the time (like cheap die-cast zinc firearms), but why settle for inferiority if you don't have to?

 

[Manco]

Next topic - now I need to put a gun in her hands that is ultra simple and will work every time without fail. The pull on a revolver is too heavy for her to be accurate, we tried so it's probably going to come down to a Glock, Springfield, or if can find one used an HK USP left in the gun vault hammer back and ready to go in Single Action.

Is your wife accurate enough with a double-action revolver? That is, can she hit a human-sized target at the expected range? If so, then perhaps the increase in reliability and confidence that comes from eliminating the possibility of limp-wristing is worth the trade-off in accuracy (depends on the individual).

A key on a necklace should not be too much trouble and does not depend on operating a keypad, batteries or remembering a combination.

For those who wouldn't mind doing this and are confident that they can keep the key secure at ALL times (even when they're in the shower, for example), this is a good argument for relatively inexpensive key-only lockboxes.

Personally, I still prefer mechanical combination lockboxes, though. I'm confident in my ability to remember and use the combination under stress (and in the dark), and overall this solution gives me less to worry about. Obviously it's a personal matter with no right or wrong answers...except for electronic lockboxes, which as I explained earlier don't quite make complete sense.

PS - I was torn on if .45 made sense for my wife but my understanding is that .45 HPs are less prone to over penetration than a comparable 9mm.

This depends on the specific load you select for defensive purposes, not so much on the caliber.

I'm still looking for a security container for it and haven't decided which way to go. I stumbled on a company called truck vault and they make what appear to be some nice, though very expensive, mechanical quick access boxes.

Have you considered the following?

http://fas1safe.com
http://www.ftknox.com/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=59
http://www.vlineind.com

 

[Manco]

Good find! Now let the debate over weapon-mounted lights begin...
I don't like 'em, but understand there are valid points to be made for, as well as against, them.

I like weapon-mounted lights because they can free up a hand and arm in case I need them. They also provide a backup lighting system for the handheld "tactical" flashlight that I still use as my primary light source. If something goes wrong with that or I have to drop it for some reason, then I'd still have a light. I've been debating with myself whether I should make the weapon-mounted light the primary and the handheld flashlight the backup, for which there are arguments both for and against, but it doesn't hurt (given the proper training) to have both options available.

TRAINING AND MINDSET are vitally important here (aren't they always?) Use the light to illuminate a KNOWN TARGET, but NEVER to identify an unknown person...

Well, inside my home, at least, my weapon light can illuminate any room enough to see where the potential targets are, and has a bright enough "spill" or "flood" with which to identify people without pointing the weapon directly at them. On the other hand, the main reason I still use a handheld flashlight as my primary light source is that I prefer to shine the beam's "hotspot" directly at the unknown person's face when making an identification, not because I need that much light but because it may "dazzle" their eyes, which would give me an advantage (at the risk of pissing off those who are not targets ). I'd still want to have a weapon light available in case I need to put the flashlight down, however.