Home invasion disguised as no-knock?

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Soybomb

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http://www.kcbd.com/Global/story.asp?S=4887406

5/10/06
Burglars Posing as Cops Invade Lubbock Home

Lubbock Police have some positive leads after five men allegedly broke into a home, then beat and robbed the two people inside.

The incident happened at 233 Grover, just blocks away from Shadow Hills Golf Course in northwest Lubbock. Five men, who claimed to be Lubbock Police Officers, kicked in the door. When they entered, holding a shotgun, they told the two men inside that they were with the ATF.

Police arrived just before 2 a.m. on Wednesday. 21-year-old Antuwan Johnson and his roommate told police that the men tied their wrists with plastic restraints and demanded money and weapons. When they said they didn't have any the suspects kicked them and hit them with the shotgun. Then one of the suspects held a shotgun on the victims while the others ransacked the house and stole more than $450.

"They said, 'Don't move!' They all had walkie-talkies, and I hear a guy come on and he said 'The front's clear, everybody move out!' When they came in they knew what they were doing. They had planned this from... they had planned this for awhile," Johnson said.

The victims told police that the five men were wearing ski masks and bandanas to cover their faces. They also had on camouflage and ATF shirts. But police say they probably just associated what the suspects were wearing with what they heard.

Police say the suspects knew the victims and probably knew that there was cash inside the house.
 
Being a law abiding citizen and an upstanding member of society, having presented no just or probable cause to be raided by authentic law enforcement officials, the policy of this house is that any and all house breachings are presumed to be criminal incursions, and will be dealt with accordingly.

That being said, any authentic official with a legitimate warrant to be served is advised to ring the doorbell and politely WAIT on the porch.
 
Federal warrents will also be served by UNIFORMED POLICE who accompany the Feds. This is true even for minor issues. No uniform in sight? Call 911.....But have 1911 handy.

Kevin
 
Being a law abiding citizen and an upstanding member of society, having presented no just or probable cause to be raided by authentic law enforcement officials, the policy of this house is that any and all house breachings are presumed to be criminal incursions, and will be dealt with accordingly.

That being said, any authentic official with a legitimate warrant to be served is advised to ring the doorbell and politely WAIT on the porch.
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My sentiments, exactly. Forced entry without opportunity to verify IDs and warrant equals a hot barrel on my AK-47, which is locked and loaded with 30 rounds of 7.62 steel core at all times, with my loaded 1911 to back it up on the night stand. Since I'm not a criminal, I consider it a fair assumption that any forced entry is being done by bad guys who mean me serious harm. If they are cops or other government agents who made a mistake, it will be a costly one for both of us. I cannot risk surrendering to masked men in black burglar garb who've busted into my home in the middle of the night and who I haven't had an opportunity to positively ID. And, no, in case you are wondering, POLICE, FBI or ATF on a T-shirt or baseball hat doesn't cut it. Full police uniforms with badges, no face masks, and at least one marked squad car with lights flashing in front of the house is the minimum I require before risking capture by bad guys.
 
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Geek and Hawkeye, I believe that you have the right idea....

However, it seems that the prevailing theory among LEOs these days is:
"Hey, we have to serve this guy a warrant for a non-violent offence."
"Well let's send a car by with a uniformed officer to serve it."
"Oh wait, he has a CHL and is probably armed"
"In that case, call out the SWAT and get a no-knock because we have an armed and dangerous suspect."
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :fire:
 
The fact that no-knock entries have been executed on the wrong houses does tend to be a good argument against this practice (unless an agency has, for example, some pretty reliable intel that there are a number of well-armed and suicidal Al Qaida operatives holed up in a house and there's little chance of innocent bystanders being hit by stray rounds, explosives or other pyrotechnics).

It's becoming pretty clear that no-knock entries for (alleged) non-violent drug crimes are a no-win situation for both law enforcement agencies and the citizenry.

TRH notes that:
Forced entry without opportunity to verify IDs and warrant equals a hot barrel on my AK-47, which is locked and loaded with 30 rounds of 7.62 steel core at all times, with my loaded 1911 to back it up on the night stand.
Click to expand...
Alas, good luck with that. As I said, lose-lose situation here if it's a real warrant erroneously being served on your home.

While I was living in San Diego a few years back, a multi-agency team erroneously invaded a businessman's home in, I believe, Poway (North County). The man reached for his bedside pistol, and was (predictably) killed.

All this said, I'm in the same camp with you guys: anyone enters my house in the wee hours, I have to assume it's the bad guys, and respond accordingly.
 
+1, Hawkeye.

It doesn't matter if they're LEOs or not. I will not wait to find out. If anyone is breaking down my door, then they are (by definition) a criminal. And they will be dealt with accordingly.
 
There is supposed to be a presumption of innocence until proven guilty in this country. I am an honest person and conduct myself accordingly. Why then would have reason to not defend myself when the door is kicked in? In my mind the police who kill people when they invade the wrong house have committed murder.

The fact that criminals have begun to imitate the no-knock entry should be a stop to all no-knock entries by any law enforcement agency as a public safety issue. I will shot first if some kicks in the door while I'm home. Lord help them if I'm upstairs because it'll be 55 gr. FMJ that greets them. It will be hard for me emotionally if I kill some cop who kicking in my door. I have very large house numbers, both on the house and at the street, so there is no reason to mistake my house for another address. If I am killed then my wife will become a multi-millonaire.

The one local incident where an innocent man was killed in a mistaken address entry cost the agencies involved tens of millions of dollars. And resulted in major changes for those agencies.
 
XD Fan, the moment we start treating law enforcement personnel like anyone else, this whole problem will disappear. If I suspected my neighbor of dealing dope, and I kicked in his door and killed him when he went for his gun, dope or no, I'd be going to jail for murder. We need to apply the same laws to everyone, regardless. There is not supposed to be a class in this country that is above the law.
 
FMJs

So you guys are all loading FMJs in your rifles? I don't really see the point, as soft points will still penetrate soft body armor, and neither will penetrate rifle plates.

Isn't the whole point of doing a no-knock--the reason agencies began using them in the first place--that the police have to enter quickly or the drugs will be flushed down the toilet? So do police use them only for searches for drugs, or do they use them for other suspected crimes too?
 
I think it all depends on what caliber you are using for the steel plate. I believe .308 will penetrate most common body armor with or without a plate. I think 5.56 will also, but I have not seen the tests. All the demonstrations I have seen were with 7.62X39. I think the common police armor is designed for shotguns and pistols. I have no idea what SWAT teams use.
 
If LEO breaks into my house in error, my descendants will live quite well on the proceeds of the legal actions that will be taken on their behalf.

I have a dammed good lawyer!!
 
One thing I will say is have your house number clearly on your mailbox and near every door. Make sure they have to miss it at least twice vefore kicking the wrong door. Now if they have the wrong address on the warrent it could get really ugly.
 
I wonder if there is any source for accurate information for actual numbers of true No-Knock entries? And, how many of those had the wrong address?

"No Knock" is not the same thing as a dynamic entry where there is some form of notice of the "Open up! Police!" sort which is followed by forcing doors.

I'm dubious that somebody could rouse from a sound sleep and identify the problem and take any action before there already is some sort of weapon in one's face. If the door can readily be "kicked in" as the article stated, the odds are even worse.

Back to the actual subject of the thread: This scenario is apparently nowhere near common, but it is not unknown. A year or two ago the subject came up, and several LEOs commented about knowing of the problem.

Since we here should have no reason to fear some form of dynamic entry, it seems to me to be wise to have strong doors on one's domicile. Gain time. Be prepared to defend if necessary, but be aware of the highest-odds appearance of a police group, as opposed to just some guys with wind-breakers and no other appropriate gear.

And avoid Keyboard Kommando-itis.

Art
 
The simple solution is to fit a 6" thick door, like the English Oak ones in all of my local pubs. Even with a battering ram and shotgun blasts to the hinges, they will have to knock a few times before they get in. :D
 
Art, any decent watchdog will start barking if people approach the house, unless you have a deaf dog. My dog sleeps in the sanctum sanctorum with me. I assure you, I'll be awake well before anyone reaches the exterior door. Heck, if there's a cat anywhere near the door, my dog wakes me up wanting to be let out to chase it off. Cats are pretty quiet animals. Even when wide awake, I cannot hear them, yet my dog is always right about it when he alerts to them. Same goes for people approaching the door.

Also, you state that a midnight break-in to one's home is more likely to be cops than crooks. On what do you base that? Have we really reached the point in this nation where we have more to fear from cops than crooks? That's very bad news, if true. Can you verify your facts?
 
I'm pretty confident that no one is going to get up our 1/8 mile long driveway at night without our dog waking me up, let alone breaking into the house and somehow levitating up the steep stairway before I am ready to greet them. :evil:

And we keep a low wattage light on downstairs 24/7 so I can see you but you can't necessarily see me :p .


I have been thinking about getting one of those driveway alarms just in case, though :scrutiny:

Or maybe just finish fencing the place and put in a steel gate across the driveway down at the county road.
 
Isn't the whole point of doing a no-knock--the reason agencies began using them in the first place--that the police have to enter quickly or the drugs will be flushed down the toilet? So do police use them only for searches for drugs, or do they use them for other suspected crimes too?
Click to expand...

What does that tell you, if the drugs can be flushed? Hell, I clog it at least once a week, using it in the manner it was designed for. I would hope most dept.s are recognizing this technique is foolish and endangers the officers as well as innocent civilians. For what? a bag of weed or crack/meth. How much can they really flush?

There's an idea for these low level dirtbags. A knock search warrant. They flush, you knock again the next day, week, month. The ones that really do have quantities won't be able to flush. There you go ..felony arrest...minimizing danger to the public, officers and the accused. Isn't that how it's supposed to work?

But will LE give up the power?

"Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely". Isn't a no-knock absolute power?
 
If I had the money...

My weapon of choice for no knocks/invasions would be three full grown Tosa Inus and a video camera.

That would be fun. :)
 
For the record, Interceptor Body Armor, with appropriate plates, will stop a full power .30 caliber round (7.62 NATO, 7.62x54R).

In the famous video of the GI getting shot in the chest, then getting up and running for cover, the soldier was hit by a round fired from an SVD at under 150 yards.

It will hurt like hell, but it won't kill you.

That said, if you can knock the lead man in a four man stack backward, you're going cause a nice pile-up.
 
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