Home invasion disguised as no-knock?

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Doesn't all this go back to the way the War On Drugs is effectuated? The only solution is legislative. Griping about the policing departments or the mistakes made by LEOs is pointless--no matter how soul-satisfying that ranting may be.

The anti-gun crowd commonly uses as argument, "If it will save just ONE life..." Can't we use that same argument to legislators about no-knock? Particularly if it's an anti-gun legislator; he already believes that stuff. Or, at the more local level, use that argument with the mayor and city council.

Add to the argument the number of home-invasion crimes done in the name of no-knock police raids.

"By alliowing no-knock police raids, you've helped robbers to more easily attack people in their homes. Do you really want that?"

Anybody think that the media folks wouldn't jump on that bandwagon?

Art
 
Yeah molon labe,

And somehow I think that if you were to point a gun at the police and demand that they produce identification and a warrant you will end up on a steel table by morning.
Hahahahaha! Yeah, and if the Founders tried resisting the Red Coats, they'd be dead as door nails, so they shouldn't even try. Not worth it, dude. Better red than dead, I always say.
 
Please DO NOT Feed the Trolls...

Look at this. One troll posts a communist-style pro-Big Brother message and everyone here feels the need to defend themselves...why? It's like explaining quantum physics to a five-year-old--don't bother trying.

When the gestapo in the police state he's advocating kick his door in, perhaps...just perhaps...he will understand. But even then, the odds are low.
 
Hawkeye,

What I meant was when police enter on a no-knock they rarely give you much time to determine if they are police or not. So if you hear your door get kicked in, and have just enough time to grab your gun before armed men storm into your room how do you know if they are police?

The normal police procedure is to tell you to drop the gun and then secure you. If they are BGs posing as police if you drop your gun you are at their mercy; however, if they are police and you don't drop your gun you get shot so what do you do?
 
What I meant was when police enter on a no-knock they rarely give you much time to determine if they are police or not. So if you hear your door get kicked in, and have just enough time to grab your gun before armed men storm into your room how do you know if they are police?

Well let's play the odds game. That's what you have to do in everything else in your life.

You're not a criminal, you have no criminals in your home and no reason a no-knock would be served on you.

What are the odds that it's cops at the wrong house vs. a fake?

Given the neighborhood in which I live, the neighbors I have, and my knowledge of the area, someone kicking my door in at 2am yelling POLICE! is going to get shot at.

There's about a 5% chance it's a wrong address no-knock, and a 95% chance it's a home invasion. If the odds are against me that night I hope my family sues for millions and retires happily cause I'll be dead.

But, the odds are much more in my favor that it's a home invasion and if my response is quick and without hesitation, I might survive against some criminal types in t-shirts. So, my pre-decided upon response will be to respond with violence and hope the odds are with me.
 
Unless the homeowner pleas, the conviction rate is well below 50% in cases where a law-abiding homeowner survives the gunfight when forcefully resisting an illegal search or dynamic entry served on the wrong house. In cases where the government agents did not properly identify themselves, convicted homeowners are rare.

Really? Do you have a source for this information?

I find that quite amazing, and very hard to believe.


http://www.theagitator.com/archives/cat_paramilitary_police_raids.php


[blockquote]
Thursday, May 11, 2006


Ouch.

During a SWAT raid on an alleged crackhouse, police deployed a flashbang grenade that blew off a man's testicle, then arrested the man for resisting arrest.

Apparently, after having his gonad blown off, the man resisted the officer's command to "be still."
[/blockquote]

[...]

[blockquote]
Sunday, February 19, 2006

Obscure Botched SWAT Raids

One thing I've discovered with these raids is that after a botched raid ends in a death, and then starts to garner lots of media attention, dozens of other people begin to step forward to say that they too were victims of botched raids, but had been reluctant to come forward out of fear of retaliation. We saw this pattern in Boston after the raid that killed Accelyne Williams, in New York after the raid that killed Alberta Spruill, all over California after the raid that killed Alberto Sepulveda, and in Denver after the raid that killed Ismael Mena.

It's almost certain, then, that the number of times a SWAT team enters the wrong home and wrongly terrorizes innocents is exponentially larger than the number of cases reported in the media. Of course, police departments don't keep track of the number of times they enter the wrong home. Most people are either scared to death to report these incidents, are aren't even aware that they can. My research also shows that there's pretty good reason for these people to fear retaliation.
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[...]


[blockquote]
Thursday, February 16, 2006

Pretending to be Cops

Just weeks after a suburban Virginia SWAT team shot Sal Culosi, Jr. to death, thugs in another suburb pretended to be cops to get inside a couple's home:

[blockquote]A couple was at home in the Tysons Corner area near the intersection of Lewinsville Road and Spring Hill Road on Tuesday, Feb. 14, when, at around 9:45 a.m., they responded to a knock at the door.

Two men identified themselves as police officers, and the victims let the two men in. Both men were brandishing handguns. The two suspects tied up the couple, both in their mid-to-late 40s, and ransacked the home. The victims were able to get loose and run to a neighbor's home where they called the police. The victims were not injured. The suspects reportedly took items, including jewelry, from the home.[/blockquote]

Crooks aren't dumb. They've seen coverage of the SWAT team home invasions. Certaintly puts homeowners in a bind, doesn't it? Armed men claiming to be police are beating on your door late at night. What do you do? Reader Mark Lemmons offers an only slightly tongue-in cheek approach:

[blockquote]Aside from the silliness of the idea of telling armed men dressed in black to wait while you verify their identity, perhaps better advice would be - if they wait for you to answer the door, it's probably not the real police.[/blockquote]

It's (morbidly) funny because it's true.
[/blockquote]

[...]

[blockquote]
Tuesday, February 14, 2006


Richard Paey vs. SWAT

I don't know why, but it never occured to me that Richard Paey might have been apprehended by a SWAT team when officials in Florida decided to nail him for daring to relieve his own pain. It should have, given that they're often deployed to bust up convalescent centers where sick people are treated with marijuana.

So I spoke with Linda Paey, his wife. Sure enough. Linda says a full-on SWAT team stormed the Paey's home the night they came for Richard. They kicked open the door, and stormed the house with assault weapons, armor, and black ski masks. They did have the courtesy to dispense with the concussion grenade.

Lest you've forgotten, Richard Paey is a paraplegic. He sits in a wheelchair, and can't use his legs. He suffers from mutliple sclerosis and debilitating back pain caused by a car accident and a botched spinal surgery. Investigators were aware of all of this.

Linda Paey is an optometrist. They have two school-aged children. No one in the family has a criminal record, nor any history of violence.

Any military fetishists out there want to explain why the SWAT team was necessary in this one?
[/blockquote]

http://www.theagitator.com/archives/cat_cory_maye.php
 
Hawkeye,

What I meant was when police enter on a no-knock they rarely give you much time to determine if they are police or not. So if you hear your door get kicked in, and have just enough time to grab your gun before armed men storm into your room how do you know if they are police?

The normal police procedure is to tell you to drop the gun and then secure you. If they are BGs posing as police if you drop your gun you are at their mercy; however, if they are police and you don't drop your gun you get shot so what do you do?
Yes, a Catch 22, isn't it? Therefore you are far better off assuming they are bad guys. If you do, there are two possibilities. First, you have a chance of fighting them off. Most bad guys will turn tail and run if fire is returned. Second, you are going to be dead because it was the cops smashing in the wrong door. The first seems much more likely to me, however, since wrong door raids are relatively rare, while crime is much more common. If, however, you choose to surrender to anyone who shouts POLICE, then you are taking a risk of something far worse than death, like being tied up while a gang takes turns with your wife and daughters, finally putting a bullet in their heads in front of you, and then it's your turn. They may not even be nice enough to just pop you in the head. They could tie a plastic bag around your head and let you die of slow asphyxiation, or worse. I prefer to go out fighting, thank you very much, with a gun in my hand. Might even win.
 
You betcha... Best "dog" I've ever had.

All the time I have been reading this string I have been asking myself, "What the heck is this guy's dog been doing all this time?"

I like to call my security system "Two dogs and a hail of bullets."

If the cops or anybody else can sneak up on my house without waking, alerting and killing both of my dogs (black ones) without attracting my attention then they are pretty durned good.

Youse guys have to get the heck outa town. Get some dogs and a hail of bullets and you will be alright. :cool:
 
Thanks to the internet, I now know that the leading causes of death in this country are:

1. No knock warrants served on the wrong house.
2. Bears.
3. George Bush.
4. Heart Disease.
5. Cougars.

You know what people. This is a serious subject. I'm as distressed by bad police work and the destruction of civil liberties as anybody else.

But I swear, that I'm getting mighty sick and tired of all of the BS, macho, chest beating, keyboard commando one line tough guy posts.

Discuss the issue in a rational manner or refrain from posting. There are about 100,000 posts on this issue now. And 95% of them are wasted.

I figure we've got about ten minutes before somebody posts another thread about this same topic, and then we'll add another hundred posts where people can fantasize about taking on whole SWAT teams.

From a purely tactical point of view, you better be damn sure that it is bad guys playing SWAT team before you engage, because if it is a real SWAT team, you are going to die. Because they will shoot you. A lot.
 
From a purely tactical point of view, you better be damn sure that it is bad guys playing SWAT team before you engage, because if it is a real SWAT team, you are going to die. Because they will shoot you. A lot.
I think we are all well aware of that. That's why we are against no knocks, and favor the old way of knocking, waiting, and presenting the warrant in a polite and respectful manner during normal daylight hours. This is, after all, what the Constitution requires. If the person holes himself up inside, just wait him out. It's not worth killing someone, and risking the lives of cops and bystanders to retrieve a little evidence of a drug crime against someone in court.
 
Add to the argument the number of home-invasion crimes done in the name of no-knock police raids.

"By alliowing no-knock police raids, you've helped robbers to more easily attack people in their homes. Do you really want that?"

Anybody think that the media folks wouldn't jump on that bandwagon?

One could say the same thing about unmarked police cars.
 
It is not up to you or I if no-knock provisions in warrants are legal. The fact is they are at this time.

+1


http://www.slate.com/id/2139458/

[BLOCKQUOTE]
The most important Supreme Court case you've never heard about.
By Radley Balko
Posted Thursday, April 6, 2006, at 3:30 PM ET

Sometime this spring, the Supreme Court will hand down its decision in the case of Hudson v. Michigan. At issue is whether or not police who used an illegal "no-knock" raid to enter a defendant's home can use the drugs they seized inside against the defendant at trial. To understand the importance of this case, some background is in order.

As the name indicates, a "no-knock" raid occurs when police forcibly enter a private residence without first knocking and announcing that they're the police. The tactic is appropriate in a few limited situations, such as when hostages or fugitives are involved, or where the suspect poses an immediate threat to community safety. But increasingly, this highly confrontational tactic is being used in less volatile situations, most commonly to serve routine search warrants for illegal drugs.

These raids are often launched on tips from notoriously unreliable confidential informants. Rubber-stamp judges, dicey informants, and aggressive policing have thus given rise to the countless examples of "wrong door" raids we read about in the news. In fact, there's a disturbingly long list of completely innocent people who've been killed in "wrong door" raids, including New York City worker Alberta Spruill, Boston minister Accelyne Williams, and a Mexican immigrant in Denver named Ismael Mena.

It's impossible to estimate just how many wrong-door raids occur. Police and prosecutors are notoriously inept at keeping track of their own mistakes, and victims of botched raids are often too terrified or fearful of retribution to come forward. But over the course of researching a paper for the Cato Institute on the subject, I've found close to 200 such cases over the last 15 years. And those are just the cases that have been reported.

It's bad enough when the police serve a no-knock warrant at the wrong place. But this is not regular service of a warrant. No-knock raids are typically carried out by masked, heavily armed SWAT teams using paramilitary tactics more appropriate for the battlefield than the living room. In fact, the rise in no-knock warrants over the last 25 years neatly corresponds with the rise in the number and frequency of use of SWAT teams. Eastern Kentucky University criminologist Peter Kraska, a widely cited expert on the "militarization" of domestic police departments, estimates that the number of SWAT team deployments has jumped from 3,000 a year in the early 1980s to more than 40,000 a year by the early 2000s.

In the 1995 case Wilson v. Arkansas, the Supreme Court for the first time ruled that at least in principle, the Fourth Amendment requires police to knock and announce themselves before entering a private home. In doing so, the court acknowledged the centuries-old "Castle Doctrine" from English common law, which states that a man has the right to defend his home and his family from intruders. The announcement requirement gives an innocent suspect the opportunity to persuade the police that they've targeted the wrong residence before having his home invaded. It also protects police from being targeted by innocent homeowners who have mistaken them for criminal intruders and those same homeowners from the burden of determining if the armed intruders in their home are police or criminals.

But Wilson didn't eliminate no-knocks. In the same decision, the court recognized three broad exceptions, called "exigent circumstances," to the announcement requirement. The most pertinent of these state that if police believe announcing themselves before entering would present a threat to officer safety, or if they believe a suspect is particularly likely to destroy evidence, they may enter a home without first announcing their presence.

A legal no-knock raid, then, can happen in one of two ways. Police can make the case for exigent circumstances to a judge, who then issues a no-knock warrant; or police can determine at the scene that the exigent circumstances exist and make the call for a no-knock raid on the spot. In the latter case, courts will determine after the fact if the raid was legal.

In the real world, the exigent-circumstances exceptions have been so broadly interpreted since Wilson, they've overwhelmed the rule. No-knock raids have been justified on the flimsiest of reasons, including that the suspect was a licensed, registered gun owner (NRA, take note!), or that the mere presence of indoor plumbing could be enough to trigger the "destruction of evidence" exception.

In fact, in many places the announcement requirement is now treated more like an antiquated ritual than compliance with a suspect's constitutional rights. In 1999, for example, the assistant police chief of El Monte, Calif., explained his department's preferred procedure to the Los Angeles Times: "We do bang on the door and make an announcement—'It's the police'—but it kind of runs together. If you're sitting on the couch, it would be difficult to get to the door before they knock it down."

That comment came in a story about a mistaken raid in which Mario Paz, an innocent man, was shot dead by a raiding SWAT team when he mistook them for criminal intruders and reached for a gun to defend himself.

Common sense says the El Monte official is unusual only in his forthrightness. Kraska's research shows that in most cities that have a SWAT team, the SWAT team serves the vast majority of drug warrants. The whole justification for SWAT procedures, which include serving warrants in the wee hours of the night and shock tactics like "flash bang" grenades, black masks, and overpowering weaponry, are to take a suspect by surprise. Were SWAT teams carefully observing the spirit of the announcement requirement by giving a vigorous knock, a full-throated announcement, and appropriate time for an occupant to answer, they'd be defeating the purpose of using paramilitary tactics to serve search warrants in the first place.

Since Wilson, the Supreme Court has only muddied the issue.

In the 1997 case Richards v. Wisconsin, the court appeared to be veering toward more protection for defendants, ruling Wisconsin's practice of serving all drug warrants with no-knock raids to be unconstitutional. Writing for the majority, Justice John Paul Stevens laid out a clear, eloquent defense of the Castle Doctrine: "The common law recognized that individuals should be provided the opportunity to comply with the law and to avoid the destruction of property occasioned by a forcible entry. ... These interests are not inconsequential."

But six years later, the court abandoned just that principle and adopted an entirely different standard. In U.S. v. Banks, the justices unanimously ruled that 15 to 20 seconds was an adequate wait time between police announcement and forced entry. More significant than the court's actual ruling, however, was its reasoning, summarized by Justice Souter rather concisely:

[blockquote] On the record here, what matters is the opportunity to get rid of cocaine, which a prudent dealer will keep near a commode or kitchen sink. …

t is imminent disposal, not travel time to the entrance, that governs when the police may reasonably enter.[/blockquote]

With those two clauses, Souter effectively dismissed the common-law principle that announcement protects the innocent from an unjustified home invasion and instead instructed police to treat everyone named in a drug search warrant as if they were already guilty. What good is an announcement if police aren't required to give you sufficient time to answer the door? Under Souter's reasoning, it's difficult to understand what purpose the announcement requirement put forth in Wilson serves at all, other than offering a quaint, ceremonial homage to a time when the Fourth Amendment was more than a mere formality.

The Hudson case the court is now considering deals with illegal no-knock raids. That is, raids in which police couldn't even manage to follow the almost-perfunctory hoops they're required to jump through to get a legitimate no-knock warrant.

In Hudson, police in Michigan knocked and announced themselves, but waited just 3 to 5 seconds before breaking into the home of Booker T. Hudson. Once inside, they found a substantial amount of cocaine and charged Hudson with various drug crimes. When a trial court found the wait time insufficient to satisfy the knock-and-announce requirement, Hudson moved to have the evidence suppressed.

The case eventually reached the Michigan Supreme Court, which ruled that suppressing the evidence seized in the raid wasn't a proper remedy for police violating the knock-and-announce rule, and cited the inevitable discovery doctrine: Because police had an otherwise valid search warrant, their failure to announce was inconsequential. They would have found the drugs anyway.

But the exclusionary rule's primary purpose is to serve as a deterrent against Fourth Amendment violations. If police know that breaking a particular Fourth Amendment protection will result in the suppression of any evidence they find, there's strong incentive for them to follow the law.

Should the U.S. Supreme Court uphold the Michigan Supreme Court's ruling, the already-battered knock-and-announce requirement would formally still be law, but there would be no effective sanction for police who violate it (monetary damages against police in such cases are unheard of). Thus, there'd be even less incentive for police to follow the rule than there already is. That means more of these particularly dangerous kinds of searches, conducted mostly by SWAT teams with no prior announcement. And that means wrong-door raids on innocents, and, inevitably, more unnecessary terrorizing of those innocents, more injury, and likely more loss of life.



Radley Balko is a policy analyst at the Cato Institute, covering civil liberties issues. He maintains a personal weblog at TheAgitator.com.
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so what do you do

Theoretically I should be able to back invaders off without anyone being shot in my situation. Killing another person isn't my idea of fun. Surrender can be arranged after I've had time to sort things out. That's my plan but it's hard to say what would really happen. Desperate actions are instinct driven and very much situational. Hope my home is never invaded.

One thing I know for sure... I won't be worried about going home at the end of the day since I am already home at the end of the day.
 
Quote from the Real Hawkeye
"So, you are saying the Framers intended a grand jury to hear the police evidence and approve a search warrant before the judge issues one? Never considered it, but it makes perfect sense. The Fourth Amendment doesn't say "so long as a judge issues a warrant," but "upon oath or affirmation," and if that refers to something a grand jury does, your point makes perfect sense. Funny that never occurred to me, but it has always seemed very little, if at all, reassuring to me that a judge (a government employee, as you say) must approve a warrant requested by a cop. The Founders always liked to interpose juries between the government and the individual. What you are saying makes perfect sense, and looking back at the Fourth Amendment a minute ago, I was actually surprised that I read nothing about a judge issuing a warrant on his own. In fact a judge isn't even mentioned. Excellent point. Thanks."


Yes sir, that is correct. Because it was intended as a Government "...Of the People, By the People, and For the People" in order that the people oversee and limit government, not the other way around. The way we have allowed it to bastardize, and be "interpreted" by Judges only, is the EXACT manner in which we have had our (teh people's) balance of power THROUGH the judiciary, given soley to judges. That is how Abortion became a "right" without a single, solitary legislative body, being involved in the process, nor a jury being able to excercise the intended checks and balance and actually over-ride the judge on a ruling the jury collectively thought unfair.

We did it to ourselves, forty years ago, when we decided to let public schools and universities teach an entire generation, the idea that we were not smart enough to "interpret" the Constitution, so "don't bother"...all these lawyers will "explain it to us" and we let them convince us to accept the idea of "civil" rights granted by a government", rather retain, and recognize the inherent rights granted by GOD, which can be taken away by no man.

They felt a public school, if instituted, should have the main purpose, of educating men in order that they could understand the concept. By letting the schools fail, to the point of allowing patriotism to be something reviled, and scoffed at, we failed not only the founders, but moreover, ourselves.

(
 
But I swear, that I'm getting mighty sick and tired of all of the BS, macho, chest beating, keyboard commando one line tough guy posts.

Discuss the issue in a rational manner or refrain from posting. There are about 100,000 posts on this issue now. And 95% of them are wasted.

I figure we've got about ten minutes before somebody posts another thread about this same topic, and then we'll add another hundred posts where people can fantasize about taking on whole SWAT teams.

To add to that 95%:

Perhaps the keyboard commandos and leobots could settle their differences in The Ultimate Showdown of Ultimate Destiny, and leave this internet discussion thingy to us serious folk.
 
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