Home Invasion: my friend's relative.

[abaddon]

Apparently two or three men with guns and masks broke down his door yelling "Police". They weren't Police. The door has a deadbolt but it wasn't in use. The victims had guns but didn't bring them in use because they thought it was a genuine police raid. For reasons I won't go into it looks to me like it was done by someone who knows him.

They tied him and his family up then tore his house apart, took a lot of stuff. Everyone is okay physically, but it sounds like his kids are pretty traumatized. I haven't been able to find anything in the local news about it. I don't know the guy so any details I get are second hand, but my friend is reliable. My friend wants some information on how to secure his home.

Here's what I've come up with:

(1) Have a shotgun locked up and always carry a pistol. That way you'll never be without a gun.

(2) Reinforce the door to the point where even a police battering ram would take a few minutes to get through it. That way you'll have time to check out the threat and decide if you should engage it or not.

I already do (1), that's a given for me. Soon it will be a given for my buddy. What I want to know, though, is if (2) is even possible. I know you can get a steel frame door and a longer deadbolt but the deadbolt is only as strong as the frame. What are the options for reinforcing the frame and/or replacing the frame? 3M apparently sells a film that will delay entry through a sliding glass door - I'll make sure my buddy gets some for his back door. Any other ideas? What does everyone think about my strategy?

 

[mrtgbnkr]

I had a home invasion almost 3 years ago....truly sucks, let me tell you. When my front door was replaced I had a 1/8" thick steel plate put in behind the door frame. The holes for the hinge screws and the other hardware had to be predrilled though the plates. My hinges have 4" screws that run through the steel plate and into the studs. The dead bolt engages through a hold bored through the plate. It won't keep a battering ram out for long (the steel door would probably bend and pull the dead bolt back out of the hole, but it will take more than the one quick kick it took last time. Time I'll use to grab the pistol I didn't have available to me last time. Wish your friend luck and let him know that EVENTUALLY he'll sleep again, but it will take some time.

 

[JohnKSa]

You're on the right track. The gun has to be ON you if there is to be any chance of gettting to it in time.

A motion detector that turns on a light inside and out when someone gets close to your door would give a little extra warning and might make them pause for a second or two.

A locked screen door or outer door. A little more time and a little more noise is a good thing.

A pure heart. I know that if someone breaks down my door they are in the wrong. I do not get crosswise with the law, so even if it IS the cops, they have messed up very badly by ending up at my door. More to the point, because of my pure heart, someone breaking down my front door and shouting "Police!" is far more likely to be a bad guy than a cop. Knowing this gives me a little quicker reaction time because I don't have to stop to wonder what to do.

An alarm might be a worthwhile thing.

A ram-proof door shouldn't be terribly difficult--might be expensive though.

 

[dverna]

Looks to me like it is a no win situtation.

If you "defend" yourself and they realy are police and wind up killing a cop you are in a world of hurt.

Interesting problem. Would any sane person open fire and gamble they are "fake cops"? Not I.

 

[JohnKSa]

It is a no-win situation. But here's the way I look at it.

If I guess they are cops and they are not, the possible outcome is totally intolerable. There are things I intend NEVER to do in my lifetime, if there is any way I can possibly prevent it. One is to be held captive in my own home, another is to watch my wife get raped. From what I've seen, this is not an uncommon M.O. for home invaders. Beat up & tie up the husband, rape the wife, terrorize the kids, take the stuff.

If I guess that they are criminals (my automatic starting assumption) and they turn out to be cops, I'll probably end up dead. Not my first choice for an outcome, but on my scale of awful things, that rates a good deal better than the alternative I listed above.

What about if I survive? Remember the pure of heart thing? It's going to be very difficult for the police to explain why they broke down the door of a person who has been repeatedly and regularly certified by both the state and federal government to be absolutely squeaky clean. I'm not saying it would be a walk in the park, but I think they're going to have to do at least as much explaining to do as I would.

Anyway, I'm not nearly so worried about guessing wrong if it IS cops. Not because I want to kill a cop or get killed by one, but because the outcome of that misunderstanding is far less unpleasant to me. That attitude might bother cops, but it's worth remembering that I wouldn't be the one breaking THEIR door down.

 

[Skyviking]

Would any sane, law-abiding citizen NOT open fire and gamble it was "all a mistake" by the real police and not a bunch of thugs ready to kill you and your family?

Unless you are running a meth lab, an indoor grow, sitting on a MOUNTAIN of dope, or are a known, violent armed criminal, LE agencies are not going to get - let alone execute - a "no-knock" arrest/search warrant - especially at night. While you engage, have your wife call the police and give them your address. and tell them the home invaders are claiming to be police executing a "no-knock" warrant and want someone in uniform and their name on the scene so you can safely comply with any lawful court order.

It's bad situation all around. If you get lucky, all the good guys live and the bad guys die or run away. If not, at worst your family grows up rich and fatherless - along with any hapless LEOS who are equally unlucky.

 

[pax]

dverna ~

That's been discussed around here ... a time or two. (See http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=1455793#post1455793 for example.)

My thought is similar to what JohnKSa said. I know that I am a law abiding citizen, and I know that mistaken-identity no-knocks are incredibly rare. Home invasions are rare too, but not as rare as mistaken-identity no-knocks. (If this reasoning bothers you, it's simply that mistaken-identity no-knocks aren't rare enough. But that's a subject for another thread!)

For the rest of my reasoning about this, follow the link.

pax

 

[abaddon]

Actually in his case he had reason to believe the police could raid his house. At the same time he isn't a criminal. He owns an Indian cigarette shop. At one time he was selling legal cigarettes that were deemed not legal at a minute's notice by the ATF. His shop and a number of other shops in the area were raided simultaneously a couple of months ago. So even though he's a law-abiding guy he has been raided by the police.

It's possible to be "squeeky clean" morally but at the same time get raided by the police. I don't think I would fire if they say they are police until I am sure they genuinely aren't police.

mrtgbnkr:
Could you explain the steel plate a bit more? As I understand it the plate is screwed to the studs in the frame and the hinges are screwed to the studs through holes in the plate. Is that correct? If so, how far does the plate run? From floor to ceiling? On both sides of the frame? Was this a custom job or can you buy this somewhere?

 

[abaddon]

Oh yeah,

Here's a link for another post I just made. I need some help helping my friend pick out a pistol.

 

[Jenrick]

As far as constructing a ram resitant door the easiest and cheapest option is to put in some form of a "locking bar" on the inside of the door. This bar is there to keep the door from opening in, and must be secured to the main structure of the door frame or a wall stud. For actual home usage making it quickly removable for fire emergencies and the like is a requirement, but the general concept is the exact same as what drug dealer use to fortify their doors (except they bolt down 8 or 9 bars). Putting one high, one medium, and one low will block the door sufficently, and make it difficult for anyone to enter through that opening. A set of cotter pins could be used to secure the bars for quick removal among other options.

Regarding a mistaken no-knock warrant:

If the individuals coming through the door don't have ballistic protection gear on (normally helmets, and quiet likely a body bunker shield or two), long arms shouldered and at low ready (shotguns, MP-5's, M-16's, etc.), badges and logos prominently displayed on all items (police labels on the shields and vests, etc.), and thy're aren't at least 5 of them it's most likely a fake.

A real no-knock is a highly co-ordinated effort that will be planned and executed by the most highly trained LE SRT available in that jurisdicition. No-knocks are granted only for good reasons and in high-risk situations. That means that the team that enters will be heavily armored, armed, and there will be a lot of them (plus a horde of non tactical officers to back them up, secure the scene, etc.). Additionally a true no-knock entry will normally involve a flash bang or two, or an explosive dynamic entry (provide they don't decide to just knock a hole in the side of the house).

If I see two or three guys kicking in my door with no offical identification displayed, wearing masks and only carrying pistols I'm firing first. If it is in fact a true screw up, the most likely course of action is the officers (who are under armed and under supported) will fall back and summon help. The SWAT van pulling up will be my cue as to what happened, and I'll go from there. Honestly I'd imagine most jurisdictions wont think about pressing charges when they find out what happened. They'll be praying to avoid a very, very, expensive civil settlement.

-Jenrick

 

[jeff-10]

I agree with Jenrick for the most part. If it is a actual SRT entry team and you fire at them it is doubtful you will survive. Doubtful your mom will even be able to give you an open casket funeral. So worst case scenario you die and your family hits the legal lotto. Best case scenario you fire and repel some home invaders.

 

[Jenrick]

One additional thing I might add.

A true SRT entering and clearing a dwelling will have you in their sights in probably less time then it takes to say "POLICE WE HAVE A WARRANT!". Honestly, even in a two bedroom house, it will take maybe 15-20 seconds for officers to have fanned out to almost every room (remember they'll be using probably close to 20 officers to clear the dwelling). In an apartment or smaller home, you'll have maybe five seconds before someone has your sited.

If the people kicking down your door are just standing around your living room for a pause figuring out what to do, they are not profesionals. They may be regular patrol officers however. I'd say error on the side of caution and let them know their covered, if they open fire, return it.

-Jenrick

 

[beerslurpy]

There are no LEOs anywhere near here that are trained in anything even remotely SWAT-teamish, so I will be shooting whoever comes through that door, no matter what their battle cry is.

I also have 2 locked doors between me and the outside world. Also dont have kids to worry about hitting with overpenetration. I really wish I could get 8 rounders for the saiga tho.

 

[coylh]

This sounds familar: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002192396_webfakecops28.html

 

[Powderman]

abaddon:

This sounds interesting. PM me, please.

Yours,
Powderman
(your friendly neighborhood Tribal cop)

 

[c_yeager]

Actually in his case he had reason to believe the police could raid his house. At the same time he isn't a criminal.

And here is the big problem. We are virtually ALL gun owners here. Many of us own guns that, while perfectly legal, are "scary" and possibly bear striking resemblance to weapons that are not legal. Furthermore we are all almost surely on some list somewhere either with local police or federal. That gives us all a higher than average chance of a mistaken police action.

I think that properly barricading the front door is the best idea. I also think that shooting isnt much of an option in that situation. For me, the solution is to head out the back window/door while they are working on the front door. If they are badguys they will be busy stealing your stuff while the real police arrive. And if they are genuine cops they will have someone waiting to rough you up a bit and provide for an excellent settlment down the line . Its not a great solution but, it beats the alternative.

 

[Kharn]

mrtgbnkr:

It won't keep a battering ram out for long (the steel door would probably bend and pull the dead bolt back out of the hole, but it will take more than the one quick kick it took last time.

You might want to look into a "vertical drop deadbolt", on that the deadbolt falls vertically into rings mounted on the frame. With that arrangement, no amount of door deformation will cause the lock to become non-functional, they'd have to physically remove either the lock or the locking plate off its mounting surface.

Kharn

 

[Zaire]

I did a search on vertical deadbolt and came upon this sight that is actually pretty good. www.latimore.org/police/security.html

 

[carpettbaggerr]

Even better is a Fox police lock. Basically a steel bar at 45 degrees from under the knob to a socket in the floor. You could make one yourself easily, and it takes a lot of work to break down a door reinforced this way.

 

[JohnKSa]

I don't think I would fire if they say they are police until I am sure they genuinely aren't police.

Your only advantage is that if you have prepared you can respond quickly to home invaders while they're still disoriented from entering new surroundings. If you let them get their bearings you stack the odds against yourself.

I categorically reject all the neat ideas for trying to identify real cops vs fake cops while they break through the door. The time that would take is time I won't have. It's ironic that in one breath someone can say "If this and this and this then they're real so stand down" and then in the next breath say: "In an apartment or smaller home, you'll have maybe five seconds before someone has you sighted." I know that these numbers are specifically for trained entry personnel, but there are trained people out there who aren't cops--there's no LE monopoly on training, and even if there were, the techniques aren't nuclear science.

I have thought through this situation carefully and have come to the conclusion that the very act of forcibly entering my home classifies a person as a deadly threat to be dealt with accordingly. Therefore my response is pre-planned and will be executed as fast as I can get a sight picture with absolutely no time wasted trying to establish their credentials. Their own actions have already identified them as deadly threats and therefore as valid targets.

I will guarantee that I get the first one through the door because I'm going for the head shot and I've practiced enough to be able to make it consistently at the ranges I'll be dealing with.

If it's a real SRT team then the next guy will probably get me. I realize what the penalty for responding this way to an SRT team will be but more importantly I realize what the far more unpleasant penalty for NOT responding this way to a home invasion will be.

I know that's probably not what no-knock warrant servers want to hear, but, as I said before, it's worth noting that I wouldn't be the one breaking down THEIR door.

 

[30 cal slob]

A big mean dog would buy you some time ... good early warning system. Doesn't have to be a pit bull, but a miniature poodle might not be too helpful.

p.s. sleep with your body armor nearby

p.p.s. if allowed by law, sleep with a loaded gun nearby (quick access safe, not right under your pillow)

p.p.p.s. put yer pants on first

p.p.p.p.s flashlight!

 

[wally]

My wife wouldn't go for living in a fortress, but she's real good about keeping the doors locked.

I have video motion detectors that make a camera specific sound so I know where the "action" is as soon an anyone gets near a door or window. Wakes me up occasionally with a false alarm when an insect flies around the camera, but its a good drill to keep alert.

Hove invasions seem to be a growth industry around here, don't get a lot of news coverage -- wouldn't want folks to think they might need a gun! A shot fired in defense seems to send the bads guy scattering like roaches in the cases I've heard about where the homeowner fought back.

--wally.

 

[Zundfolge]

Would any sane person open fire and gamble they are "fake cops"?

I would.

If there are "real cops" kicking in my door its because they seriously screwed up which is significantly less likely then "fake cops" performing a dynamic entry. Its all about playing the odds.

I am not involved in the drug trade, nor is anyone in my family, nor anyone I associate with. I'm not involved in any other criminal enterprise, nor is anyone in my family, nor anyone I associate with. If real cops come through my door the first one gets shot and assuming I survive the rest get to deal with my lawyer because there is absolutely zero legitimate reason for the police to serve me with a "no-knock" warrant.


I hear about these faux raids and I wonder what kind of people the victims are that they would think for a moment that real cops are breaking down their door (in other words, what do these people do that could bring the real cops down on them?).

 

[fjolnirsson]

A big mean dog would buy you some time ... good early warning system

30 cal slob beat me to it, but I was going to suggest a dog or three.
I have 250+ lbs of dog as an early warning system. I'd most likely hear the snarling before the broken glass/wood, followed by human screams of pain. The dogs have already made short work of one would be thief while I was away.

Dogs=good idea...

 

[Jenrick]

A comment about something I've noticed in a lot of the responses, most people have indicated that their going to take the first guy out and go from there, and if it's a real SRT then so be it.

On a no-knock the first guy through the door (or at least the first one you can react to) is going to have a body bunker shield. While I admit there are quiet a few things that will punch through that, most of them aren't going to be a HD weapon (or the legally loaded ammo for it).

So just as a point of refrence, if you go for a head shot and find out that there isn't a head to shoot, it's probably the real deal.

In reponse to JohnKSa about tactical training availabilty:

It's quiet true that the techniques and tactics needed to perform a no-knock (or any sort of room clearing operation) are readily available if you know where to look. It's also true that anyone can spend time going over the drills and working together as a team to learn how to execute properly. It's true that with some leg work, time, and money it's possible to assemble enough gear to make a fairly credible imitation of a SRT. However I'm willing to argue that unless your a publised millionare in a non-guarded community, that no-one will go through that kind of effort to get into your house.

It's far more likely that anyone trying to run this type of gig against the well to do will be winging it on equipment, training, and costuming. Honestly if they have trained up to profesional standards and execute to them, it doesn't matter if they're BG or LEO you're out of options.

-Jenrick