Quantcast

Home Invasion

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics and Training' started by jamesbeat, Jan 3, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2006
    Messages:
    12,466
    Location:
    Rocky River, Ohio
    An unloaded firearm is useless when you need it. It's foolish to assume you're going to have time to load it when you need it.

    If working the action impresses an assailant, how much more impressive are the muzzleblast and the actual projectiles?
     
  2. smoothdraw

    smoothdraw Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2010
    Messages:
    195
    Location:
    Atlanta
    Don't get me wrong all my 3 1911's in my house are all cocked and locked. But having gun in condition 2 or 3 are okay too if people want it. It will be a little slower but for home invation the time for you to retrieve your weapon is much longer than a simple tap and rack of your weapon.
     
  3. chieftain

    chieftain Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    1,264
    Location:
    The Free State of Arizona
    Most, not all, of the present American ruling party could demonstrate that for you.

    The fundamental right of Self Defense and the tools, in this case guns and other defensive weapons are refused to any Law Biding person. It is some of the end results of expecting the Government or state to take care of and defend you personally.

    We are headed that way too.

    Go figure.

    Fred
     
  4. Fred Fuller

    Fred Fuller Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2004
    Messages:
    21,218
    Location:
    AL, NC
    jamesbeat,

    The law is what it is, where it is. It is a product of people, not a force of nature. It can be changed if enough people find it... unsuitable.

    But it is not our business here in S&T to discuss how the law got that way, what needs to be changed, or how to change it. Your entire nation, including your own home, is pretty much what we describe here as a NPE- non-permissive environment. That is how we refer to a place where effective weapons of self defense are not allowed.

    One of the things we talk about here is how to deal effectively with threats in a NPE.

    In your particular case, you obviously found a way to manage that. It's unfortunate that you had to make it up as you went along. It's a tragedy that you had to do it without the most effective means of self defense available to you. But you managed.

    And more importantly, you're now analyzing the situation, thinking about it, questioning things you apparently hadn't thought about before. The physiological effects of severe stress are fairly widely known to the defensive shooting community here in the USA. Our cadre of professional trainers (military, LE and private citizen) work hard to prepare their students to cope with those effects as well as the aftermath of a stressful situation.

    You'll notice a little list at the bottom of each of my posts. It's there as a sort of shorthand to try and help our members prepare themselves for precisely the circumstances you describe so well. I don't know if you're familiar with USAF COL John Boyd- if not, do a little research on him. There's a good bit on the web now, his name has become more widely known than it was fifteen or twenty years ago when I (as a civilian employee of the US Army) first encountered his approach to combat. You might have heard of his OODA Loop theory- if not, look it up. It'll likely help you put your recent experiences into a better perspective.

    We're all here because we are serious about studying these things. We appreciate other people sharing their own real world experiences because it's a good way to learn things without having to go through similar experiences ourselves. We want to prepare ourselves to handle such situations as well as possible- not to "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" as is so often claimed by those who oppose our having the ability to defend ourselves and our loved ones, but to end such situations without bloodshed if at all possible. And if it is not possible, to make certain that none of the blood that is shed is innocent blood.

    And so we study, and we train, and we practice. We seek to strengthen our MINDSET first- to understand that we are not invulnerable, or invisible, that we might be targeted as victims by some thug or group of thugs, that we have the God-given right to defend ourselves and that it is not only allowable but proper to do so. We seek to connect our mental ability to perceive threats with the physical actions necessary to avoid, de-escalate, disengage, escape and evade the threat where possible, and to terminate the treat when that is the only way out.

    And we seek to broaden our SKILLSETS- to learn new ways to effectively and efficiently overcome different challenges, no matter if it's through awareness and avoidance, verbal skills, hand to hand skills, less lethal weapons, or lethal weapons.

    Lastly we seek to build ourselves manageable and useful TOOLSETS that can conveniently be carried wherever we go and that will help us effectively accomplish the security of ourselves and our loved ones. Tools come last in the list because tools are the easiest to obtain and the least important component of the list. Hang around here long enough and you will eventually encounter the phrase- "Software trumps hardware."

    We are in good company here. While S&T at THR is pretty much a one-room schoolhouse for self defense topics, there are lots of places in the USA where higher education on these subjects and skills is the order of the day. Take a look at these, as a very small sample:

    http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/

    http://www.teddytactical.com/

    http://www.defense-training.com/quips/quips.html

    http://www.usconcealedcarry.com/pub...w=yes&dept=53&sort=date&ddesc='No BS' Columns

    http://www.donrearic.com/main.html

    http://www.jamesakeating.com/maajak1.html

    Thank you for sharing your own experiences, I'm genuinely sorry you had to go through that with no more recourse than was available to you. You can rest assured that we over in the colonies are continually amazed and dismayed at the state your nation has come to- those stories get wide attention here, and with luck they will serve to proof us against making the same errors.

    Best wishes to you and yours, and Stay Safe,

    lpl
     
  5. jamesbeat

    jamesbeat Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2009
    Messages:
    610
    Lee, everything you say is true and very well put.

    Please don't misinterpret my intentions, the points I made were intended as a warning to people who may feel complacent or who didn't see the serious need for research and training.
    At the time this incident happened, I'd count myself among those people, but I learned my lesson the hard way.
    Many of the problems that I faced could have been eliminated with proper research and training.

    The links that you posted are excellent, and should be required reading for those who take the threat of home invasion seriously.
    It's so easy for the uninitiated to imagine a home invasion situation to be like a scene from a movie, but nothing could be further from the truth, and that was the point I was trying to make.

    Your body will do all sorts of crazy stuff if this happens to you. That's why it's so important to expect that to happen and have the appropriate training to deal with it.

    Unexpected things are guaranteed to happen, which is why one must develop the proper mindset and way of thinking, so that when the unexpected does happen, you make the right decisions.

    It's important not to make assumptions when planning, because those assumptions may turn out to be incorrect.

    While there will always be the requirement to think on your feet and make it up as you go along to an extent, if you have actually given the subject some thought in advance, you're more likely to make the right decisions.

    I read some years back on a knife forum that just because you happen to have a knife on you, it doesn't mean that it will turn into a 'magic sword' if you get attacked in the street. The same applies to any weapon.

    I may have lived in a jurisdiction that makes self defense practically illegal, but there was still no excuse for my unpreparedness.
    The day after this happened, I bought a baseball bat. I also made up an 'alibi' for owning the bat, as I knew that it would probably be necessary to explain why I had it if I ever had to use it.
    A bat isn't ideal, but it sure beats a fake gun or the lump hammer I had in my hallway, both of which would have got me a prison sentence.
    I probably would have got a prison sentence if I used a bat as well, but since a bat is perhaps less likely to kill than a lump hammer, it might have been a shorter one.

    I happened to do the right thing and avoid using any weapons during my home invasion situation, but that was mainly down to pot luck.
    These things are pretty rare, so I doubt it's statistically likely to happen to me again, but all the same I read and think about it a lot more now than I used to just in case.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2010
  6. ultradoc

    ultradoc Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2008
    Messages:
    1,118
    Location:
    Ohio
    dude glad everything turned out ok.
     
  7. richardluther

    richardluther Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2010
    Messages:
    11
    From my terrible own personal experience a critique:

    As soon as you heard the first hint of commotion outside your door you should have:

    a) armed yourself (which you did)
    b) called the police (which you did...but this time immediately)

    Never discuss anything, never ask what do you want, never look through the lookout.

    If you feel your gut tightening, get prone and get ready.

    You run the risk by conversing with belligerents of turning a conversation into a grudge to which they can, and some do, come back and jack you up.

    Just like a lion in the bush, breathe, relax, aim if necessary and squeeze if you must.

    Keep the initiative.
     
  8. FRJ

    FRJ Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2009
    Messages:
    69
    I have one comment or suggestion if you will: Never look out the peep hole in a door. It gives anyone wanting to harm you the information that your standing right in front of them. One or two quick shots and they have injured or killed you without even seeing you. Also be aware that an open peep hole can be viewed thru from the outside with a simple optical device that gives the viewier a wide view of whatever is going on behind the door. My peep is taped over and I never stand behind the door in any case. Also to be prepared for the possible home invasion I used to keep bear traps at all the entrances to my apt. I was told that could cause legal problems so I went to a few simple coils of barbed wire placed at the entrances and the lights off. I also have other less obvious obsticals that would have to be gotten past before they got into my bedroom and the final obsticle my shotgun. FRJ
     
  9. Boberama

    Boberama member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2009
    Messages:
    384
    Sheesh, England is really bad. I would have picked up a large knife or a bat myself if anyone tried to kick down my door.
    I live in Canada though. It's pretty bad here too, and the fastest I can access a gun in to keep it unloaded in a GunVault, one of those safes where you punch the combo and it flips open.
    Since all guns must be kept unloaded, a handgun is the fastest. Insert magazine and hit slide release. As far as I know only one citizen in a 100 mile radius has used a handgun in self-defense.
    Search Dievert's Jewellery Store Robbery on Youtube and you'll get a fair view of most Canadians positions on handguns from the woman who thinks he should be charged.
    In fact, he was charged with "careless use of a firearm".
    I think I'll do a post on this.
     
  10. Webbj0219

    Webbj0219 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2008
    Messages:
    300
    Location:
    Manchester, NH
    Took an hour for the cops to get there? When the operator thought that they were already inside tearing the place up? Sheesh! Those cops where only there for the clean-up.
     
  11. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2006
    Messages:
    12,466
    Location:
    Rocky River, Ohio
    (Subject to local law) you have the right to keep your weapon in whatever condition suits you, including detail stripped. What you have the right to do and what's a good idea can be VERY different things.
     
  12. chieftain

    chieftain Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    1,264
    Location:
    The Free State of Arizona
    Boy will that start an uproar. ANOTHER example of just "shucking" a shotgun that prevented a good guy from having to shoot.

    "Cruiser" ready ain't exactly unloaded. But it is ready to engage with.

    Yea, but much cheaper and much less trauma, cost, and time wasted by the good guys if that shotgun 'shucking' works. And it does, not every time but often. I find only those with no experience and in total terror are afraid that the act of 'shucking' a pump as you bring it to your shoulder as a wast of time.

    Go figure.

    Fred
     
  13. otcconan

    otcconan Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2007
    Messages:
    182
    Location:
    Republic of Texas
    This is a question we should all consider.

    Would we rather be in jail, or dead?

    I think I know the answer to that.
     
  14. Fred Fuller

    Fred Fuller Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2004
    Messages:
    21,218
    Location:
    AL, NC
    Would we rather be in jail, or dead?

    otcconan,

    Neither.

    And many times, the choice is not necessarily one or the other exclusively.

    There's an old saying- "When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." Our purpose here is to expand our toolboxes as much as possible. Reliance on hammers alone can be limiting.

    Regards,

    lpl
     
  15. Gungnir

    Gungnir Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2009
    Messages:
    660
    Location:
    Trying to Dodge Wildfires in the Alaskan Bush West
    Hey James, welcome to America, I'm an ex-pat myself so I know some of what you're talking about. Although it's been 10 years since I was in the UK, I still have family there, although personal defense in a non-discussable topic. You did well, but here's some personal critique, you can take it or leave it.

    Ok What you're describing in the section quoted is a delay in your OODA loop.

    Mentally you were confused by two things
    1. They were people
    2. Other concerns leaked in

    In that situation you need to focus on the now and let later wait, you can deal with it later, if there is no later then you needn't worry about it.

    Firstly lets talk about people, yes the couple who were trying to break in were indeed people, its no surprise. However they were also apparently criminals who had threatened to cause possibly lethal violence on you. So first thing is dehumanize, they are your enemy, and they want to do you possibly deadly harm, if you are killed or disabled, then what will they do to your now undefended girlfriend. This is something you need to work at before the situation arises, so you can turn it on when needed. You can sort out any remorse later if needs be.

    Also learn that during commission of crime the perpetrator and victim do communicate both verbally and non-verbally (being punched in the face is a very strong non-verbal communication), you were surprised by this and it scrambled your OODA loop, it might have even been deliberate on their part (not that there's much hope they know the theory, but they may well know a practical application or two).

    Their age, gender, ethnic heritage, is all irrelevant, if they are there to do you harm then they are the enemy and must be stopped or they will stop you. It doesn't matter if it's a 250lb 6'5" wrestler, or a 85 pound 15 year old girl with a revolver. It's you or them, then make your choice.

    Secondly lets talk priorities. Self defense is about managing priorities, if you're in fear of death remove the threat, if the threat is removed, then worry about after the fact, like injury, if that is removed, criminal charges, if that's removed then worry about inconveniences like being arrested, if that's removed then worry about the after effects, like feeling insecure. What happened in your case apparently is that these priorities got muddled, you were worrying about too many things at the same time, like: -
    • I might get killed
    • I might get injured
    • I might go to prison
    • I might get arrested
    • I might get questioned
    • I need information that the police might need to find and arrest these people

    Do not worry about injury if death is a serious probability.
    Do not worry about prison if serious injury is a serious probability
    Do not worry about minor injury of prison is a serious probability.
    etc.

    Now other than mentioning your girlfriend phoning the police, you don't mention any concerns for her safety, now that could be because of two things. She isn't that important so you weren't concerned about her, or you managed that fear. Sorry if that seems brutal, but I'm being honest. What caused that to be a non-issue in your experience only you know, so analyze and learn from it.

    Training, yes it's important, as the saying goes "we don't rise to the occasion, we sink to our level of training". So good training is important, in your case even more so, since you've already experienced a dangerous situation, and can extrapolate the situation based on your new training. Generally when people are trained, while it's real nice and all, and they can learn tactics and skills, whether they are of any real use to you is solely dependent on you at the time they're needed.

    Unfortunately until you "see the elephant you never know" however you have seen the elephant to a degree, so you can mentally work through the information provided by training and see how you would apply it to the situation. Word of caution on this though, reality is rarely the same as a mental exercise, do not be taken off guard if at some point when you get into another situation, that it does not play out how you've mentally prepared. Yes we all have plans and tactics, but don't think you've covered every possibility, so do not be confused or deterred when it doesn't play out how you expect.

    One final word of warning, criminals, or attackers are not stupid (contrary to a lot of peoples belief) they will only act when they feel that they have an unfair advantage, so learn from your training, but do not over estimate your abilities, nor under estimate your enemies, you have training, and they have experience, the combination of the two is extremely potent. If I had to choose I'd take someone who has both over someone who has one, I'd take someone with experience over someone with training and I'd take someone with training over someone who has nothing. So while it's a huge advantage over nothing, it is not a panacea, over-estimating your training as a strength often leads people into a belief to the point it is an active weakness, and when the rubber hits the road, they will quickly lose faith in both themselves and their training (since they over estimated themselves and under estimated their opponent), this means that rather than their training being an advantage, it becomes a handicap.

    Anyway my opinion. HTH
     
  16. duns

    duns Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2009
    Messages:
    814
    Location:
    TX
    James, I think you handled the situation as well as anyone could be expected to on the spur of the moment (without having prepared for the exact situation in advance) -- well done!

    I was appalled at the lack of a timely police response and their disinterest in investigating the crime after. But that's why guns are necessary IMO -- one cannot count on any help from the police.

    PS I'm also a Brit living in the USA (green card holder) and have taken advantage of my 2A rights.
     
  17. otcconan

    otcconan Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2007
    Messages:
    182
    Location:
    Republic of Texas
    Point taken.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice