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Hornady Critical Defense.....

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by SSN Vet, Aug 27, 2009.

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  1. SSN Vet

    SSN Vet Member

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    picked up a box of 9mm Luger 115 gr last week, not knowing much about it. But after several tries to find Remington 124 gr. Golden Saber I figured I would give the Hornady a try.

    Was surprised to see the article in the latest issue of American Rifleman comparing Hornady Critical Defense to the new Winchester Supreme Elite.

    What interested me was that Hornady seems to have deliberately taken a different direction and is not designing to the rigorous FBI tech. requirements, but rather to the concealed carry personal defense crowd.

    The big difference being penetration... and the FBI requirements to penetrate cover materials (two plates of sheet metal, two layers of 1/2" sheet rock, 1/4" safety glass, etc...) and then still go through heavy clothing and achieve a minimum penetration of 12" into the ballistic gelatin.

    If you're in a gun fight and with a BG and it is your job/duty to bring the perp. down, then all of this is very desirable.

    But for Joe Citizen seeking concealed carry for personal defense, these requirements could actually cause more of a problem than a benefit (at least in my small mind) where over penetration and collateral damage is definitely a concern. Furthermore, Joe Citizen is likely going to have a difficult time justifying the use of force when the threat is hiding behind wall, or driving away in a car.

    Hornady seems to realize that more isn't always better. And that with the latest in hollow point design, getting complete expansion (even when shooting through heavy clothing) and retaining mass is achievable with less mass and less pressure (i.e. recoil and muzzle flash).

    Faster follow up shots that still get the personal defense job done and less risk of errant rounds causing damage to unseen targets sounds like a very good trade off for Joe Citizen.

    Winchester's new round will surely keep them in the good graces of LEO agencies, and I'm glad they will have it available to them..... but I'm thinking that the Hornady is a better choice for me.

    Any other thoughts or perspectives out there???
     
  2. glassman

    glassman Member

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    I use them in my 642 and the M64 in the night stand.
     
  3. smallbore

    smallbore Member

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    Have recently switched to using them in in my S&W 642. Pleased with the penetration & expansion.
     
  4. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

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    As soon as they started advertising it I was suspicious. I don't think that clogged hollow-points failing to expand is a very common problem at all. And I very strongly doubt that CD deals with the problem any more consistently than my 230 gr HSTs. The very worst thing that can happen is I will have about the same effect as 230 gr hardball, which isn't really that bad.

    A handgun is an emergency tool. If you are using it, it means you have been caught away from your rifle, using a tool that is already inferior to defend yourself. Now is the time you need it to do more than ever. You don't know if you will need to shoot through your car door or through your windshield. I don't want reduced ANYTHING in a handgun round.

    Even if the likelihood of overpenetration is 'reduced' with CD ammo, it certainly isn't 'eliminated'. It can't change youe plan in any way. You still must assume it will overpenetrate, you still must fire until the threat is stopped, you run out of ammo, or the target disappears from view. The best way to reduce the risk of unintended victims is to end the fight as quickly as possible. This ammo doesn't change how I would do business in any way.
     
  5. Ala Dan

    Ala Dan Member in memoriam

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    I also use the Hornady CD ammo in my S&W 642 442, 60; and in my KEL-TEC P3AT
    .380 ~! ;) :D
     
  6. DMZ

    DMZ Member

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    I bought a box of 110 gr .38 Spl for my LCR and took to the range.

    The first thing I noticed was how light the LCR was fully loaded.

    The second thing I noticed was how nice they grouped. The POI is a bit low and left, but they proved to be very accurate.

    The third thing I noticed was how quickly I could empty the gun. Very low recoil and blast = quick reacquisition of sight picture.

    I went back and purchased a couple more boxes.
     
  7. hardluk1

    hardluk1 member

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    mljdecked Your 45 hard ball idea will get you killed. Just this month sshooting times ,i think had a article in it on a old shooting where the cops were shooting 45's with HB bullets and after shooting the BG several times he killed them. So I for one want a bullet that will dump it energy in side if at all possible and for small bore's the Hornady CD rounds so far all real test have showed they do just what they claim . Expand well threw clothing ever time.They don't load this round atleast not yet in the big bores and for a 380, 38,9mm it might be the best of what is out there . If you don't want to use it fine ,shoot what you want and go on. Oh this bullet was not designed to go through a laminated glass window but will go through side glass just fine. We, meaning the people that would use the CD ammo would not be carry'n a 45 it does matter if the bullet acts as a hard ball type round.
     
  8. HexHead

    HexHead Member

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    I carry CD in my .380 and .38 and will switch from TAP in my 9mm when fall starts (or I can find it). I wish they'd come out with 230 gr. .45acp.
    I'm currently using TAP in that and it's only available as +P.

    As for the "FBI requirements", if a bullet over penetrates and hits innocent victims, the agent isn't going to get sued or likely go to jail. If it happens to us, we WILL.
     
  9. NoleMan

    NoleMan Member

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    Everything, for the most part, I've read has been positive. Having a non-hollowpoint reduces the chance of a FTF issue. The ammo also is very low recoil. It's a lot like shooting range ammo, which obviously helps with follow up shots. I like it.
     
  10. CoRoMo

    CoRoMo Member

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    My take on the write-up was that Hornady gave in to their lawyers' panic and developed a politically correct line of self defense ammo. It soured me.

    I'll check out the Win SE ammo, because they produced a cartridge that meets/exceeds each of the specific points I like in a defense round.

    Just my 2¢
     
  11. Gunfighter123

    Gunfighter123 Member

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    I tend to agree with the above quote --- My "nightstand" gun is/was a Colt Gold Cup with a 8 rd. mag -- the first 6 rds. in the mag are older Win. Silvertips and the "top off" rounds are Glaser Safety Slugs -- my thinking is after two shots are fired , the BG will be seeking cover and the GSSs are not ment for penetration such as doors,couches,etc.

    The Hornady CD-FTX sounds like a very good load -- in the AR issue they quote " Mr. Emary states the FTX technology provides 100 PERCENT reliable and consistent expansion etc" ---- not to argue BUT 100 PERCENT expansion etc. sound like some good marketing talk !!! Afterall , EVERY COMPANY SAYS that their latest product is "the best" just like they all said THEIR LAST PRODUCT was the best !!!

    So for me , bottom line ---would I use/trust the Horn. FTX --- YES , after I tried some of my own "tests" with them.
     
  12. Gunfighter123

    Gunfighter123 Member

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    hardluk1 --- while I understand your above comment you would have to agree that "maybe thousands" of people shot with 230gr. Hardball died in WW1,WW2,Korea , Vietnam and on the streets of America.
     
  13. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

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    Get me killed? You do realize that your energy dump idea is BS, right? Handguns do not have enough energy to knock someone down.

    A .45 that fails to expand is roughly the SAME diameter as a 9mm JHP that DOES. The real world difference a good bullet that expands and one that doesn't is negligible. I am much more worried about getting as many COM hits as I can than if they are 9mm, .45, JHP, or FMJ.
     
  14. hardluk1

    hardluk1 member

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    Gunfighter123 My point was for the people that don't have an interest in carry'n a large and heavy handgun a hardball is not the best or even a good choice to make a one shot kill or stopage with out suffering some exchange of gunfire. Now i know that nothing is a guaranty of a kill with one shot. This has happened on the street when leo's carried HB years back and the street thugs still do. Shoot aguy 6 times and a hospital might still patch the bum up today. Use a standard HP and it might kill him with one or two rounds ,use the CD and it will more than likely do it job with the same 1 or 2 rounds. Atleast the CD's work.

    Mijeckard Read above . AND remeber for those of use that don't want to carry a 45, the honady CD ammo maybe one of the best choise out now.Of course with your thinking i should be able to doulbe tap 9mm HB and get go the same results. Just dumd. Atleast the CD's will expand and more than likely dump that energy and shock wave inside a target instead of most likely passing through like a hb with little tissue damage and not deleaver but part of its energy. Add i bit of drugs to some BG and he might not know he's even shot with HB. Thats is why guys get shot with hb rounds 4 to 6 times and get patched up at the hospital. Just watch some cop show on tv. Hardball heaven.If you hunt think of this. Shoot a deer with a .45 cal non-expanding bullet in the lungs and miss the heart and liver and you would expect to have to trail a deer till it bleeds out, right? Or come back hours later. If you then shot it with a smaller expandeing bullet that disrupts much tissue and makes a larger shock wave and stays inside which one do you think you will find sooner. Hardball ain't the same as a expanding bullet that stays inside even if it is larger of bore. Theres just no compairison to a 45 hb. Now if your big hp's work ,, all is great, right.Dam i know many cops that carry 380's as off duty guns and 38 sp. Most people that shoot a 9mm can double tap a 9 quicker than a 45 also. In our local shooting club one guy changed to a 9mm xd after 25 years of 45 in a 1911 and can't believe how much quicker he can get shots on target on the double tap targets. Hay shoot what you want just don't try to explane how a damd 45 hb is better than 9mm CD, that will expand.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2009
  15. searcher451

    searcher451 Member

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    I've heard a couple of positive comments about the Hornady 9mm ammo from folks on the Walther Forums. I'd love to give some a try in my P99C, but I can't locate any locally and haven't yet placed an online order for some. Can anyone provide a recommendation for an online site that has it in stock at a reasonable price? Thanks in advance.
     
  16. SwampWolf

    SwampWolf Member

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    An "errant" round is still going to travel to places you may not want it to, irregardless of bullet configuration or type.
     
  17. SwampWolf

    SwampWolf Member

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    Hard to argue with this assessment. Not to mention the fact that no hp bullet I'm aware of performs any better in an auto in terms of feeding reliably and many may not do as well.
     
  18. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

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    hardluk--

    You have a LOT of learning to do. The bulk of what you said is pure gibberish, besides the spelling errors.
     
  19. donato

    donato Member

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    Please have a good debate without attacking someones grammar or spelling. That is a childish ploy.

    Just one thought: In most cases, I doubt the over penetration factor/debate is of any significance. In a real life shootout, most of us would be spraying bullets all over the place and most would not be hitting the target. Hope there are no innocent folks standing around because they probably wouldn't need to worry about over penetration - the missed target bullets would be the real problem.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2009
  20. okespe04

    okespe04 Member

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    I keep hornady critical defense in my Ruger lcp and my G19. I'm pretty sure it will do the job and it cycles well in both guns.

    With all the ammo debates out there I tend to not be very picky. As long as the ammo is marketed for personal defense and it cycles in my gun its good enough for me.
     
  21. The Wiry Irishman

    The Wiry Irishman Member

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    hadluk1 - You seem to be confusing the effects of shot placement with bullet expansion. Stopping a person quickly is much more a function of where you hit them, not what you hit them with. Barring a psychological reaction, a person can continue functioning from minutes to hours with a hole in something that's not their central nervous system. I've even seen a news story about a shooting victim getting about thirty seconds of vigorous activity with a bullet in his heart. Its shot placement, or lack thereof, that's leading to people with 6 bullet wounds living like you mentioned.

    So your key to stopping is hitting a CNS or other area that is likely to quickly stop a person. How do hollow points help you do this? The shockwave you talk about won't help, as handgun bullets simply do not travel fast enough to have this effect. They do get bigger. A good .45 HP will expand up to around .75 or so. That means the bullet will now be capable of of hitting things up to an additional .15" from its point of impact. Not really much of an aid to hitting one of those key areas.

    HPs do two things: First, they increase the likelihood that the projectile will remain inside its target or exit with a lower velocity, thus decreasing the chance of unwanted collateral damage. Second, they get expand and develop sharp, jagged edges that make a slightly larger wound channel and do slightly more tissue damage. That's it. They won't stop somebody faster if you don't put them in the right place, they just give you a little extra advantage when you do hit something critical. They're not magic, and they certainly won't make the difference between a stop and prolonged gunfight. Its the shooter that does that, not the equipment.
     
  22. donato

    donato Member

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    OK. So clarify your point again for me. Is it hardball or is it hollow point that is best for use in a defensive mode (assuming the same caliber)?
     
  23. DBR

    DBR Member

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    I doubt the Hornady Critical Defense is as effective or expands as reliably as Corbon DPX. Less expensive maybe?
     
  24. donato

    donato Member

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    But that is a very subjective statement. You're personal doubts are not facts. This is kind of what started this thread off on the wrong foot back around post #4 when mjdeckard stated that he strongly doubted CD dealt with clogged hollow points any more effectively than his HSTs. Well, just 'cause he strongly doubts, doesn't make it so. Statements like that are why he probably got hardluk so riled up.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2009
  25. swmp9jrm

    swmp9jrm Member

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    I use the Hornady CD in my Taurus PT-709. The conceal guns seem to like the size and shape of this round. Still use 124 gr +P HSTs in my M&P9FS. I just ordered some of the Winchester PDX-1s in 9mm and .45ACP.
     
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