A Word of Caution About Hornady Critical Defense FTX Ammunition

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Chriscorp, I was a medic, and I understand, personally, i carry what I am comfortable with, and that is an auto, with an extra mag, comes from growing up in the military, never learned a wheel gun, tinkered a lot with autos, extra mag, because that cures most hicups with autos.

BTW, this link is the answer to most of your car questions, Buick O Truth
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/thebuickotruth.htm
 
and what does this have to do with ammo?

side isn't that a bit of an over reaction to door to door salesmen??
I mean, it could be a Jehovah's Witness.
 
shadow, as long as we agree it's still personal/individual and not set in stone, then all is cool. You said that you choose a semi-auto and extra magazine, and that it "Comes from growing up in the military". Well, I generally carry a semi-auto, never an extra magazine, and I "grew up in the military", (more than 20 years); including teaching CATM classes. So I guess it's still individual. And I have watched many of the car shooting/training videos. If you think you're going to be in those situations and scenarios, definitely arm yourself accordingly. I'm just asking that if others don't believe those scenarios are practical or possible; at least in their lives; that you respect them and their choices. Me personally, I'm not going to be shooting through car doors, windows, or windshields. Sorry, not going to happen. But again; if you think you will; then definitely arm yourself accordingly.
 
... Like Manco said in post #36 , "Why settle for less?"
Because sometimes, less is more, as they say.

I'm not trying to be flippant either. I'm still scratching my head at the people who have convinced themselves that a major ammunition manufacturer somehow found itself unable to do what both itself and its competitors have been doing successfully for decades -- make JHPs that meet the FBI protocols -- and then simply decided to market the failed product anyway, lying about what is was for to cover their incompetence. Come on people, gimme a break! 911 was not an inside job. We really did go to the moon. Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. There never was a 200mpg carburetor that you could install on your car, that the oil companies killed in order to sell more oil.

There's a reason critical defense ammo was developed to be exactly what it is, and there's a reason it doesn't meet the FBI protocols. Let me break it on down for you.

First of all, today, it is easier than ever before, in most states, for a private citizen to get a permit to carry a concealed weapon. So, naturally, today, there are more citizens doing so than ever before. This means there is a bigger market for self defense oriented ammo than ever before. Secondly, by far the most popular handguns for concealed carry are small, lightweight pistols and revolvers. Third, shooters have been indoctrinated with literally decades of articles coming from gun writers, which have repeated over and over again that you never want to carry anything less than a .380, and that's the absolute minimum. Consequently, they prefer to carry reasonably potent calibers, with more power than the .32ACP and .38S&W that were once the most popular rounds for concealed carry. Fourth, rounds like .38 Special +P, 9mm, .40S&W, etc. tend to kick rather hard in the very lightweight aluminum or polymer or scandium frame guns that are all the rage these days, and this makes controlling these guns more difficult. Fifth, regardless of all the scenarios one can imagine one might get into, the overwhelming majority of shootings involving citizens carrying concealed are simple, close range encounters with lone assailants. Therefore, given all these facts, it actually makes sense to supply the demand for ammunition that performs best under these parameters. It's powerful enough to assure adequate penetration and expansion in a target who is confronting the shooter (the likeliest target that a citizen will encounter) not hiding behind cover or inside a vehicle. And it's no more powerful than it has to be for this job, in order to maximize controllability in the small, lightweight guns that shooters prefer to carry when they carry concealed. It's slightly less powerful than ammo intended to meet the FBI protocols, in order to give citizens an effective, but more controllable round, that will allow them to achieve more solid hits on the target with less difficulty. Less is more, in this case.
 
Billy: Very Well Said. There is definitely too much of the "Oprah Syndrome" going on. Basically, all the people who take what Oprah says and make it their own beliefs, because they trust her. Like MANY voters who never looked at an issue on their own ever.

There are people trying to convince others that normal citizens are identical to police officers, LEO, and military. And if the LEO/Military/Police don't use a certain gun, then you shouldn't either. And that the threats and scenarios that the Police/LEO/Military are involved with day to day, is no different than what we normal citizens can expect to encounter and should be prepared for. That's why there's all these debates online about the 40sw being so much better than a 9mm or 380. Or that you have to have a Glock; after-all, that's what so many police officers use. "Of course they conveniently don't tell you that the main reason so many LEO/Police have glocks is because they won the lowest bid; not that it was higher quality". And that you need 15+ rounds and at least 1; preferably 2-3 extra magazines.

You hit the nail on the head Billy. For the most likely self defense scenario, outside of the home, the Critical Defense round will more than adequately perform. Not that other ammo can't or that the Critical Defense ammo is the best. There is NO BEST. Best is what shoots the most accurately and reliably in your gun when YOU are shooting it. But for some people to argue with some of their rational, becomes a waste of time. As long as they believe that their self defense needs are equal to, and require the same tools, as law enforcement, FBI, police, military, etc... then there is absolutely nothing that can be discussed. They will use the "Better to be safe than sorry" position for everything. And that is totally acceptable as far as I'm concerned. They can carry whatever and how much of it that they want. And people can have their "Bug Out" kits all packed and ready to go. And they can have their 3 months of food stocked up in their homes. And they can even keep an extra pair of underwear in their glove box in case they have an accident. But when they're convinced that others are wrong because they don't experience and see the world as negative and bleak, or like a hollywood movie; then they are the ones that are wrong. People need to choose for themselves.
 
i don't give a flying Eff' what people say. I test my ammo myself. I shoot different media out of different guns at different distances and judge for myself.

My ruger LCP is setup with Critical Defense ammo. Im not gonna let my decisions get swayed by the most articulate poster here on this form or any other for that matter. I also am not gonna leave my decisions to protect my life to fancy boxes or advertising in different gun mags.

I suggest everyone plan for a big day with a few buddies and get to some open land and setup different scenarios and different material to shoot through and come to your own conclusions.
 
I suggest everyone plan for a big day with a few buddies and get to some open land and setup different scenarios and different material to shoot through and come to your own conclusions.
While a good approach in theory, it has one glaring problem: you can't replicate the effect of shooting into living flesh. Any test medium used is, at best, a poor approximation. This is why the debate rages to this day between the "morgue monsters" -- those like Marshall and Sanow, who use shooting statistics to try and determine stopping power, and the "jello junkies" -- those who support lab tests with ballistics gelatin, like Dr. Martin Fackler. The insulting nature of the nicknames they call each other is some indication of how rancorous the debate has gotten.

The problem is that both sides are partly right. Marshall's and Sanow's methodology is rather suspect, and real life shootings have so many variables from one incident to the next that its all but impossible to draw firm conclusions about stopping power. On the other hand, while lab tests with gelatin can be strictly controlled, and variables eliminated, the fact is that ballistics gelatin is very, very far from a perfect approximation of human flesh; it's homogeneous, while the human body is anything but -- being made up of flesh, bone, blood vessels, organs, viscera, etc. and they all vary so much in density, texture, strength, elasticity, etc. that gel can't ever give you better than a crude approximation of how a bullet will perform when it enters a human body.

Any test medium one uses at home, whether it be phone books, clay blocks, pine boards, ham hocks, etc. is going to be even less ideal a stand in for human tissue, and most people, being ill-trained in research methodology, will not be able to control very well for all the variables. People who don't have a thorough understanding of how to conduct scientific research typically have their results skewed by uncontrolled variables, confirmation bias, faulty premises, or other factors. This really is one area where, unless you have specialized training in how to conduct rigorously controlled and scientifically valid tests, you may honestly be better off deferring to the opinion of experts.

Determining who are really the experts, and who aren't, however, isn't easy. For that, you have to do a lot of research, and use your best judgment to critically analyze competing claims.

Now of course, having said all this, there's no reason that you can't conduct your own tests, and add that to your knowledge base. Just be aware of your own limitations, especially if you get wildly different results from what experts seem to be getting.
 
it has one glaring problem: you can't replicate the effect of shooting into living flesh

go to your local butcher and see what scraps he has. Bad cuts, ect....

You can duplicate some stuff pretty well. Although it isn't perfect and it isn't the same as shooting someone, i feel it has given me enough hands on testing to make my own choices.

I have Critical defense ammo in my LCP. I found that the Critical defense and Gold Dots performed best in .380 out of my LCP. Having said that, i didn't find the CD's to be all that great in the 9mm variety. Almost every gun of mine loaded for self/home defense has different ammo in it.

JOe
 
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While a good approach in theory, it has one glaring problem: you can't replicate the effect of shooting into living flesh. Any test medium used is, at best, a poor approximation.

Fine, then go to open fields with people who AREN'T your buddies. LOL!!!!!!! Sorry... Had to go there.
 
go to your local butcher and see what scraps he has. Bad cuts, ect....

You can duplicate some stuff pretty well
Actually, there's still a big discrepancy.

Any cuts of meat you get simply won't allow you to duplicate the effects of shooting into a human torso (center mass, the optimum target) which still has all its organs and viscera inside it, and still has blood coursing through its circulatory system. Think about it. The fastest way to incapacitate is with a hit to the central nervous system -- the brain or upper spinal column. But those are small targets, and when you aim center mass, they're not what you're aiming for. The next quickest way to incapacitate is to shut down the circulatory system, with a hit to the heart, a major blood vessel, or blood bearing organ, and you incapacitate the target through rapid blood loss. How can you possibly duplicate this by shooting into a cut of meat that's already been drained of blood, and which has none of the major organs left inside it?

You really can't.
 
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Fine, then go to open fields with people who AREN'T your buddies. LOL!!!!!!! Sorry... Had to go there.
Well, the state tends to frown on this sort of thing. Just make sure they don't catch you at it, or they're likely to provide you with splendid new accommodations, complete with a wonderful new room mate, as reward for your scientific endeavors.
 
actually you can, but many states frown on hunting with low power caliber, but go on a hog hunt with a buddy and offer to put some down in a trap, see what works, see what doesn't, have a buddy with slugs in a shotty when it don't work.
 
What are the ages of the hogs? How much difference are they in weight? Are their physical conditions relatively similar? Has one been eating well, while the other hasn't, etc? Is shot placement the same for each one hit?

These are those variables I am talking about. Unless you can control for them, they're going to throw off your results. The Thompson LaGarde tests, for example, were also conducted on living animals (among other things), yet they are widely regarded as scientifically flawed, and their results suspect. Again, if you have not been trained in research methodology, your results are very likely going to be flawed.
 
Billy Shears.

Nothing is perfect. It simply can't be.

Now if you want to just keep rambling on and on and on about how its not the same, well... then do so. But your wasting your time. We understand that. Some of us go through extreme lengths to do testing as realistic as possible. And some (like me) have convinced ourselves that we have discovered what works for US. No amount of typing is going to change it.
 
Billy Shears.

Nothing is perfect. It simply can't be.

Now if you want to just keep rambling on and on and on about how its not the same, well...
You know, if you are using a modern JHP from a reputable manufacturer, odds are you've got a good, effective load, no matter how you've arrived at it. And that's because the ammo manufacturers have tested the product more thoroughly and more rigorously than you or I will ever be able to do. You can dismiss objections like these as "rambling on" if you like, but that makes these concerns no less real.
 
" For the most likely self defense scenario, outside of the home, the Critical Defense round will more than adequately perform."

Okay, let's talk about odds and "the most likely senario". The most likely senario is that a gun will never be needed for self defense, so why bother carrying one? Right?

John
 
Billy Shears writes:
Marshall's and Sanow's methodology is rather suspect…
Indeed it is. “The Truth about Ammunition” is but one example.

Billy Shears writes:
On the other hand, while lab tests with gelatin can be strictly controlled, and variables eliminated, the fact is that ballistics gelatin is very, very far from a perfect approximation of human flesh; it's homogeneous, while the human body is anything but -- being made up of flesh, bone, blood vessels, organs, viscera, etc. and they all vary so much in density, texture, strength, elasticity, etc. that gel can't ever give you better than a crude approximation of how a bullet will perform when it enters a human body.

Information that may be of interest:

Extract from “Wound Ballistics Misconceptions.” (Duncan MacPherson, Wound Ballistics Review, 2(3): 1996; 42-43):
When a bullet is penetrating any material (tissue, water, air, wood, etc.), the total force the bullet exerts on the material is the same as the total force the material exerts on the bullet (this is Newton’s Third Law of Motion). These forces may be represented as a combination of shear forces and inertial forces (don’t be concerned if these words sound too technical – the concepts are easy). Shear force may be thought of as the force that resists deformation; if you push on a wall you are creating shear forces in the wall material that resist your push. If you push your hand down very slowly on a water surface, you feel no resisting force; this is true because a liquid cannot support a shear force….

You can fan your hand back and forth in air quite rapidly because there seems to be no resistance, but a similar fanning motion cannot be done nearly as rapidly underwater because moving the water can take all the strength you can muster. The forces that resist the movement of your hand in water are inertial forces….

A bullet penetrating a soft solid (tissue or a tissue simulant like gelatin) meets resistance that is a combination of shear forces and inertial forces….

…Anyone who has worked with gelatin knows that a finger can be pushed into gelatin with a force of only a few pounds; this force is similar to the resistance to a finger poked into the stomach, but the tissue does not fracture as easily as gelatin does. A finger poked into water does not meet this kind of resistance, which is due to shear forces. Penetration of a 9mm bullet at 1000 ft/sec is resisted by an inertial force of about 800 pounds; it is obvious that the presence or absence of a 3 to 5 pound shear force makes no practical difference in the penetration at this velocity. This also explains why the fact that gelatin fractures more easily than tissue does is not important.

The extension of these dynamics to soft tissue variation is obvious. Different types of tissue present different resistance to finger probing by a surgeon, but the surgeon is not probing at 1000 ft/sec. Different tissue types do have differences in the amount of shear force they will support, but all of these forces are so small relative to inertial forces that there is no practical difference. The tissue types are closer to one another than they are to water, and bullet expansion in water and tissue are nearly identical at velocities over 600 ft/sec where all bullet expansion takes place (See Bullet Penetration for a detailed explanation of bullet expansion dynamics).

Since inertial forces depend on accelerating mass, it makes sense that these forces should be lower at lower velocities (because the penetrated material cannot be accelerated to a velocity higher than the bullet). Shear forces have little velocity dependence, and as a result, shear forces are a much larger fraction of the total when bullet velocity is below the cavitation threshold. This low velocity effect is the reason that total bullet penetration depth is much different in water and in tissue or a valid tissue simulant.

As a result of the penetration dynamics, most soft solids with a density very near soft tissues (i.e., near the density of water) are satisfactory tissue simulants when shear forces are not important. However, total penetration depth depends significantly on dynamics at velocities below 400 ft/sec, so most materials do not properly simulate penetration depth. The total bullet penetration depth in tissue and a valid tissue simulant should be the same; standard practice is to use calibrated gelatin to insure this. In effect, gelatin calibration is done to ensure that the shear forces in the gelatin are the same as in typical soft tissue (as described in Bullet Penetration, the technical parameter used in the dynamic is viscosity).

Extracts from “The Wound Profile & The Human Body: Damage Pattern Correlation.” (Martin L Fackler, MD, Wound Ballistics Review, 1(4): 1994; 12-19):
The test of the wound profiles’ validity is how accurately they portray the projectile-tissue interaction observed in shots that penetrate the human body. Since most shots in the human body traverse various tissues, we would expect the wound profiles to vary somewhat, depending on the tissues traversed. However, the only radical departure has been found to occur when the projectile strikes bone: this predictably deforms the bullet more than soft tissue, reducing its overall penetration depth, and sometimes altering the angle of the projectile’s course. Shots traversing only soft tissues in humans have shown damage patterns of remarkably close approximation to the wound profiles.

The bullet penetration depth comparison, as well as the similarity in bullet deformation and yaw patterns, between human soft tissue and 10% ordnance gelatin have proven to be consistent and reliable. Every time there appeared to be an inconsistency…a good reason was found and when the exact circumstances were matched, the results matched. The cases reported here comprise but a small fraction of the documented comparisons which have established 10% ordnance gelatin as a valid tissue simulant.
Additional comment by Shawn Dodson:
JHP handgun bullets are designed to expand in soft tissues. In a defensive shooting the kinds of tissues we’re trying to destroy are all soft tissues. These are reasons why bone isn’t normally used to test JHP bullet performance because: 1) JHP bullets aren’t designed to expand in bone – they just deform, and 2) the bullet’s terminal performance characteristics are entirely dependent on factors that cannot be controlled by the shooter (what bone is hit, where it is hit, angle of impact, depth of location along the wound track, bone density/thickness, etc.). The only terminal performance desired in bone, at least that I can think of, is for a bullet to blast through to reach vital tissues. Quite simply, performance in bone is what it is.
 
" For the most likely self defense scenario, outside of the home, the Critical Defense round will more than adequately perform."

Okay, let's talk about odds and "the most likely senario". The most likely senario is that a gun will never be needed for self defense, so why bother carrying one? Right?
Wrong. You can "what if...?" yourself to death. But if you are basing your choice of gun and ammunition, and your tactics on very unlikely scenarios, while at the same time ignoring scenarios which are far more likely to occur, then you are putting yourself at a disadvantage.

Really, what's more likely, you shooting it out with multiple attackers who are firing at you from behind cover, or some suspicious looking creep who walks up to you and says "hey buddy got a light?" right before he draws a weapon of his own and attacks you with it?
 
so I'm more than happy to change my carry ammo in my .40 to what is a common LE accepted round, anybody care to point the way.
Any of the top tier 180gr. loadings are adequate. The Winchester Supreme Elite Bonded PDX1 (Ranger Bonded) is the new FBI load.
 
But if you are basing your choice of gun and ammunition, and your tactics on very unlikely scenarios, while at the same time ignoring scenarios which are far more likely to occur, then you are putting yourself at a disadvantage.
There are no disadvantages to charging your handgun with top tier JHP loads. The current offerings meet, or exceed the 12" minimum penetration requirement through all common intermediate barriers with good expansion and near 100% weight retention.
 
You can "what if...?" yourself to death.
I regard ammunition selection as a matter of battle readiness philosophy. My personal philosophy is that I don’t get to choose the situation, the situation chooses me. It is what it is, and I’m forced to play the hand that I’ve been dealt. I’d rather not leave things to chance and risk failure; I want to do everything possible I can to stack the deck in favor of success. My equipment and I have to perform on demand anytime to respond to a spontaneous threat. In keeping with my battle readiness philosophy I load my weapons with ammunition that provides a capability to defeat commonly encountered light barrier materials. I’d rather have this capability and not need it than to need this capability and not have it. In so doing I believe I’m better prepared to deal with as many different situations as possible, from the most likely situations to those that are unpredictable and seemingly inconceivable.
 
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