How About "Tactical" Lever Actions?

[Nalapombu]

Hey all,

It seems that more and more people are using LEVER ACTION rifles as their primary HD rifle instead of the "Evil Black Rifles" that scores or shooters are buying these days. Apparently there are lots of LEO agencies that are also using lever action rifles as their squad car rifle. Some of the reasons stated are ease of use, very quick learning curve, easy to become proficient quickly and the ability to use low cost ammo for training.

I had never really thought about it prior to seeing the show Shooting Gallery on the Sportsman's Channel. But it does make sense when you look at what the lever action gives you. In a pretty compact package you can get 10 rounds of 44 mag or 45LC. That is some pretty potent medicine for anything that would choose to invade your domicile in the middle of the night. That's not even looking at the 30-30 or the 45-70 rifles which would also give you the ability to stop any kind of creature that might give you trouble in camp, your hunting lodge or cabin or your home in rural America.

So now that we know there are LOTS of people and LEO's that are, BY CHOICE, using lever action rifles as their PRIMARY HD rifle, what lever action rifle would you choose as your "TACTICAL" Lever action rifle? What features would you have on it or do you think it SHOULD have? Would you go with a pistol caliber with HIGH capacity or pick one of the rifle cartridges that would give you more KO Power but less capacity?

Naturally if you have pics of lever guns that have been set up for this role, how about posting them? I know there are others out there other than me that would like to see them.

My choice would be a Winchester 94 Trapper with 16 inch barrel in 44 mag or a Marlin 1895G Guide gun in 45-70 with aftermarket picitinny rail and upgraded sights like what comes on the custom packages by several of the custom lever gun smiths.

What do you think?

BD






P.S. The use of the word "TACTICAL" in this thread is completely tongue in cheek.....

 

[ojibweindian]

Marlin 336 in 30-30 with factory sights, or a Williams receiver peep.

 

[Zundfolge]

I'd think a Trapper with a red dot or some XS or tru-glo sights would make an excellent home defense gun.

XS makes a nice rail system for lever guns
http://xssights.com/store/scope.html

They also sell a ghostring sight setup that looks pretty cool http://xssights.com/store/rifle.html



I recently had a friend of mine that has always been mildly anti gun (and his wife is rabidly anti gun) come to me asking for advice on a home defense gun ... seems the "eclectic" neighborhood they live in has seen a bit of an increase in crime (particularly troubling is a couple of home invasion robberies). Well his wife flatly would not allow a handgun or "assault" rifle in the house, so I told him to go pick up a 16"-20" lever action rifle in .357 mag. He got a nice deal on a used 18" Marlin. Since he got it a month or so ago he's gone through close to 500 rounds of .357 mag and even his wife has enjoyed shooting it.

Its definitely a sufficient home defense weapon, and its "PC" appearance has made it easier for his anti-gun wife to accept and even enjoy. Plus its attractive enough (very nicely figured walnut stocks and excellent clear bluing) that it hangs on the wall in their bedroom so its easily accessible and most of their liberal friends don't even realize its a functional "real" firearm, simply a bit of kitschy decoration.

 

[Big_E]

Well duh, Lever actions are <wicked?. 44mag or 30-30 wouldn't be bad for LE use.

What about the Browning BLR that has a detachable magazine or the other brand that had it (Ruger?). Then you could have .308 or something similar but if they made the mags for 10 round cap then it would be pretty decent.

 

[Eric F]

If I had too, and again only if I had to, I would go with a wild west guns 500 S&W mag lever action with Iron sights. Nothing really tactical about lever actions and honestly I dont really see a use for the word tactical when speaking of a lever action. I mean really there is nothing even close to being tactical about them.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

Winchester Model 94, in .30-30 with 9x scope. That's my tactical rifle.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

EricF: "Nothing really tactical about lever actions and honestly I dont really see a use for the word tactical when speaking of a lever action. I mean really there is nothing even close to being tactical about them."

Well, our cavalry thought different back in the day. And I think different, now. A Winchester 94 in .30-30 with a 9x scope is a lot more "tactical," meaning used or useful in tactics, than a plastic .223 covered in electronic crap. I've got one of those, too.

 

[benEzra]

Gabriel Suarez wrote the following article a while back. I couldn't find the article on his website anymore, but here's the text:

THE TACTICAL 30-30 LEVER ACTION RIFLE
Copyright 1999, Gabriel Suarez
All Rights Reserved

Ask any student of small arms to name the most typically American rifle and chances are that they will name the .30-30 lever action rifle. Manufactured for over a century by Marlin, Winchester, and others - the lever action invokes images of the Old West. We see Jimmy Stewart in "Winchester '73" smiting the enemies of justice and freedom with his "repeater". We see John Wayne admonishing his adversaries to "fill their hands" as he gallops forward, a stubby Winchester in each hand. And, of course, we see photos of that most American of presidents - Theodore Roosevelt wielding his lever action against all manner of beasties in Africa. This ubiquitous and understated weapon has played a very major role in this country's history.

Today the lever action is most often seen in the hands of close range deer hunters as a brush gun. It is not likely to be the first weapon that comes to our minds when the talk turns to fighting. But make no mistake friends, as a fighting (anti-personnel) weapon, the lever action is just as useful and deadly today, on a lonely stretch of highway in the bad part of town, as it was in the dusty cow towns of the Kansas Territory more than a century ago.


Today a rifle of this sort might be kept in tactical storage in a hall closet, above the hearth, or in the trunk of a car for unexpected social unpleasantries. In such a role the lever action has several advantages over other weapons that are more commonly thought of as fighting tools.

Primarily, the lever action is inexpensive. Used examples in perfect working condition may be had for about a hundred bucks. Even brand new weapons will set you back less than the price of a night on the town for two. Compare that with the price of a more military-like, and hopefully still legal, Sturmgewehr-fighting rifle (If you can find one for sale these days)!

The ammunition (.30-30 Winchester Centerfire) has all the characteristics desirable in a mid-range fighting rifle cartridge. In fact, the ballistics of the .30-30 cartridge are amazingly similar to those for the most specifically designed fighting cartridge of all, the 7.62X39 Russian chambered in the AK-47. Shot for shot, the .30-30 will do everything you could ask from a mid-range tactical rifle. And it will do these things far better than many military weapons will!

Being "sporting guns", lever actions are usually issued with fairly good triggers which are crisp and conducive to hitting. Even if the trigger action is rough on some pieces, it is a simple matter to have it brought up to speed by a gunsmith. Additionally, you'd have to look long and hard to find a gunsmith that isn't familiar with the lever action lock-work. This is certainly more than we can say about the gritty as-issued, or modified triggers of the various SKS, AK, HK etc.

Finally, the lever action rifle is more compact in its 16 inch barrel configuration than most other rifles that might be chosen to fill the role. Equally important in this age of sensitive, touchie-feelie, felon huggers, it looks innocent. Don't dismiss this last attribute too easily. In our troubled and ignorant times, juries release violent murderers and rapists because they are not intelligent enough to discern the real facts from the spun fiction. Such things as a bayonet lug or a 30 round magazine from East Germany may confuse them enough to change your life's plans...drastically.

The standard .30-30 will suffice as issued for most duties. But enhancement may be undertaken to improve its performance. One area where improvements may be made is the sights. These weapons are issued with the old buckhorn type sights. They will do, but a rear ghost ring aperture sight with its accompanying front sight post will, in my opinion, do much better. These are available from various sources.

My .30-30 carbine has a modified 1903-A3 rear sight whose aperture has been opened up to ghost ring configuration. This rear sight, coupled with a ROBAR front sight at the end of the barrel, works very well indeed.

Also useful is a leather butt-cuff. This keeps extra ammunition on the weapon itself. This may compromise the concept of the light carbine, but if you have to grab the rifle and run out of your house at 0'dark 30 one night to repel the Visigoths, you'll be glad the extra ammo was there. I know that I was always glad to have a few extras!

Winchester still provides their lever action rifle in the "Wrangler" 16 inch barrel configuration. Marlin once made a similar model called the "Marauder". If your fighting lever gun is too long, it is a simple matter to have your excess barrel lopped off at the local gunsmithy (make certain it remains at least 16" long to keep "you know who" away). Such a conversion will greatly enhance handling, as well as keep the spirit of the compact weapon.

I thus modified an old Marlin 336 rifle that I rescued from the used gun rack at the local gun store. Total cost of the entire package was less than two hundred bucks (including a nice 4X Leupold scope, which I eventually mounted on another rifle!). It is short, light, hard hitting, rugged, cheap to replace if necessary...and well, it looks innocent. I obtained a supply of hunting grade PMC 150 grain .30-30 ammo and tested the combative utility of the carbine via a series of rifle exercises from Suarez Internationals Tactical Rifle school. The drills involve both close range reactive shooting as well as longer distances possible in combative encounters. For purposes of uniformity, all drills commenced from the Rhodesian ready position - that is gun held loosely at the belt level with the muzzle depressed to the offside.


Head shots were fired from the shoulder at 25 meters. Body shots were next at 50 meters, 75 meters, and 100 meters. Multiple targets were shot at 50 meters distance as well as up close at 7 meters. Close quarters targets were engaged both with snap shots from the shoulder, as well as from the Close Contact CQB position. Approximately 200 rounds were fired to get an overall impression of the lever action rifle in the anti-personnel role. Our findings were that there is very little that a realistic rifleman (acting as an individual - not a member of a military rifle squad) can expect from his weapon that the lever action cannot deliver.

If you are in need of an economic and effective rifle that offers as many advantages as a single rifleman can use within "defensive" or "urban" conflict distances, take a serious look at the lever action carbine. I think you'll like what you see.

Now, Suarez makes it very clear elsewhere that he considers a civilian AK or a reliable AR a superior defensive firearm, but a lever-action in .357 or .30-30 is nothing to sneeze at.

If I had a lever-action for HD, I'd probably go with a .357 for capacity reasons. And I'd definitely want an optic and a Surefire on it.

 

[CoRoMo]

...more and more people are using LEVER ACTION rifles as their primary HD rifle...

News to me.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

Apparently there are lots of LEO agencies that are also using lever action rifles as their squad car rifle.

I've never heard of any.

If I was going to use one for home defense, I'd probably use one in .44 spcl, unless I was worried about dangerous animals. I've heard that the noise from firing full-powered rifle cartridges indoors can leave you stunned. That might not be the case with .30-30, but unless I needed extra power against, say, bear, I wouldn't risk it. (And then I probably would use something bigger than 30-30.)

Primarily, the lever action is inexpensive. Used examples in perfect working condition may be had for about a hundred bucks. Even brand new weapons will set you back less than the price of a night on the town for two. Compare that with the price of a more military-like, and hopefully still legal, Sturmgewehr-fighting rifle (If you can find one for sale these days)!

This article is a bit outdated. The rifles will cost more now, and there is no AWB. (I assume he was referring to stuff banned by the '94 ban, not actual assault rifles or Sturmgewehrs.)

In a pretty compact you can get 10 rounds of 44 mag or 45LC

.
This is a bit of an overstatement. The ones that hold 10 rounds of either of those calibers aren't the most compact ones, they manage to keep it about the size of a mini-14 by using a smaller stock.

 

[bonedust]

the lever gun is a very relevant HD weapon. its probably far more common than the nay sayers realize.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

Nearly everyone I know in Maine has one; for over a century the Win 94 has been the quintessential deer rifle for the woods. That they should be relied on for home/camp/cabin defense is not surprising.

 

[Eric F]

Well, our cavalry thought different back in the day. And I think different, now. A Winchester 94 in .30-30 with a 9x scope is a lot more "tactical," meaning used or useful in tactics, than a plastic .223 covered in electronic crap. I've got one of those, too.

I am not saying they are not useful. Slaping a scope on a leveraction makes it no more "Tactical" than it does "sniper". Tactical to me means "more useful and or faster". For example on other guns a ready mag or rails or on shot guns a side saddle and especially on a 1100 the fat extended load button. There are no gadgets around that I know of that can help a lever action in any of these areas. Sights and glass dont qualify for tactical to me unless there is something extra special about them like an acog with the fiber optic. I will admit that a 16 inch barrel helps but that alone does not really count either. There is nothing wron with them just the way they are, no need to make them "tactical" to me.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

EricF: "I am not saying they are not useful. Slaping a scope on a leveraction makes it no more "Tactical" than it does "sniper". Tactical to me means "more useful and or faster". For example on other guns a ready mag or rails or on shot guns a side saddle and especially on a 1100 the fat extended load button. There are no gadgets around that I know of that can help a lever action in any of these areas. Sights and glass dont qualify for tactical to me unless there is something extra special about them like an acog with the fiber optic. I will admit that a 16 inch barrel helps but that alone does not really count either. There is nothing wron with them just the way they are, no need to make them "tactical" to me."

I don't understand your use of "tactical" then. Tactical means used or useful in tactics. Practical, maybe. A Win 94, with or without a scope, meets that definition. If by "tactical" you mean covered in gadgets, then no -- the Win 94 is not easily made "tactical" according to that definition of "tactical." But I seriously disagree with your use of "tactical," then. Why not "strategic"?

 

[Mp7]

...this is not the HIGH TIMES forum?

OMG!
I was already wondering, why all you people apparently
have so many evil black rifles and AKs to just protect
your potpatch.

 

[mordechaianiliewicz]

While I would far rather have a lever action rifle in .30-30 than a single shot anything... I wouldn't make it my primary over an AK/AR platform.

Even in semi-auto configuration, the AK/AR/G3/FAL etc. platforms are simply superior.

That being said, at any ranges within 200 yards, the lever gun is going to be superior tactically to most bolt action and obviously, single shot rifles. But, I wouldn't make it my primary weapon, and if I were in charge of procurement for the local PD, I wouldn't dream of making it standard.

 

[Eric F]

I don't understand your use of "tactical" then. Tactical means used or useful in tactics.

Well a plain river rock could be tactical then too. In this format what I mean by tactical is adding something not usually found on a gun. And it works for most guns not all but most. For example an ar-15 a1 with a 20 inch barrel is as plain as it gets then you make it into a flat top with a 16 inch barrel and ad a red dot of some sort. now it is more useful for hd than the previous format. Hence it is now tactical.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

Eric F: "Well a plain river rock could be tactical then too. In this format what I mean by tactical is adding something not usually found on a gun. And it works for most guns not all but most. For example an ar-15 a1 with a 20 inch barrel is as plain as it gets then you make it into a flat top with a 16 inch barrel and ad a red dot of some sort. now it is more useful for hd than the previous format. Hence it is now tactical."

So if I put a cupholder in my car or a chrome grip cap set on my motorcycle it's "tactical"?

Adding something to something does not make it "tactical," though I agree that term has become overused and watered down. Adding on stuff makes it "customized."

Putting stuff like that on a rifle does not, ordinarily, improve its performance anyway. It often degrades the performance.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

A Winchester 94 in .30-30 with a 9x scope is a lot more "tactical," meaning used or useful in tactics, than a plastic .223

I disagree. I can't imagine using a 9x scope for home defense. Also, there's probably a reason the people who use guns for a living use ARs instead of win 94s. I'm not saying lever actions aren't effective, but since I've no combat experiance whatsoever, I think a good method would be to see what various police forces use.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

Jimbo: "I disagree. I can't imagine using a 9x scope for home defense. Also, there's probably a reason the people who use guns for a living use ARs instead of win 94s."

My scope mount allows use of the iron sights at close distances, and you can always dial back the scope power.

I'm not suggesting the Win 94 is a superior military weapon, or even a para-military weapon, today. I AM suggesting it is just as "tactical" if not more so than some over-customized gadget platform.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

I'm not sure I understand. If it's not a superior weapon, then how is it "more tactical"?

I'm not suggesting the Win 94 is a superior military weapon, or even a para-military weapon,

I was thinking more about civilian defensive uses, actually.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

Jimbo: "I'm not sure I understand. If it's not a superior weapon, then how is it "more tactical"? I was thinking more about civilian defensive uses, actually."

While I would agree the word has been watered down and misused a lot recently, the word "tactical" is not a synonym for "superior." Nor is it even a synonym for "customized." Used in the Maine woods to defend a cabin and timber grove against a couple of assailants, a Win 94 may be a better choice than an M4gery even with all sorts of electronic gear on it. Hence, it may be the superior "tactical" choice for that environment. That doesn't mean I'd recommend arming our soldiers in Afghanistan with Win 94s (OR M4s).

 

[Girodin]

It seems that more and more people are using LEVER ACTION rifles as their primary HD rifle instead of the "Evil Black Rifles" that scores or shooters are buying these days. Apparently there are lots of LEO agencies that are also using lever action rifles as their squad car rifle.

Out of curiosity what do you base this first statement on? Please name any known agencies that are using lever guns.

I have a .357 lever gun that has killed a fair number of jackrabbits and is a handi little weapon. I would not feel too bad if it was my only HD gun. That said I have multiple other weapons of various types that I would turn to first for that role.

If one had a lever gun they could certainly press it into service but I would not go out and buy one with the proximate purpose of HD.

If one lived in a state where laws and public preception are hostile to guns then a lever gun might be a better choice.

 

[moooose102]

i dunno, i have never seen a flat black lever action rifle with a quad rail, flashligh, laser, eotech, or red dot, so it can't be "tacticool". besides, a 45/70 would go through the b.g., your walls, and the neighbors wall. just a bit much on the penetration end in my opinion.

 

[Leadhead]

This one just needs a flashlight upfront! (not mine by the way....)
Looks like buddy used some truck bedlinner to good effect!