How About "Tactical" Lever Actions?
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ECVMatt
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Here's a couple of mine...
This is a 16" .44. I love the size of this thing. It has more than enough power for most things I would want to do with it.
This one is a .30-30 that is cut down to 16". It does somethings the .44 can't and my .45-70 Guide Gun does the rest.
View attachment 404419
I have an AR and an AK, but sometimes simple things seem better to me. I tend to not like mags sticking out the bottom or handles on the top.
Just take a walk with these three rifles. You pretty much need a sling for the AR or the AK to be carried comfortably. The handle on the AR is nice, but most folks seem to delete that now. A levergun fits the hand like no other gun I have hunted with or carried for protection.
It isn't great for all situations, but it will work for most. I won't leave it back at the truck because it is uncomfortable to pack around. For me that makes it practical which is much more important than being tactical, to me anyways.
I know some folks won't agree, but that is how it adds up to me.
Matt
I forgot to add that I like Marlins.
This is a 16" .44. I love the size of this thing. It has more than enough power for most things I would want to do with it.
This one is a .30-30 that is cut down to 16". It does somethings the .44 can't and my .45-70 Guide Gun does the rest.
View attachment 404419
I have an AR and an AK, but sometimes simple things seem better to me. I tend to not like mags sticking out the bottom or handles on the top.
Just take a walk with these three rifles. You pretty much need a sling for the AR or the AK to be carried comfortably. The handle on the AR is nice, but most folks seem to delete that now. A levergun fits the hand like no other gun I have hunted with or carried for protection.
It isn't great for all situations, but it will work for most. I won't leave it back at the truck because it is uncomfortable to pack around. For me that makes it practical which is much more important than being tactical, to me anyways.
I know some folks won't agree, but that is how it adds up to me.
Matt
I forgot to add that I like Marlins.
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BornAgainBullseye
Member
To be a totally tacticoo lever gun it would have to be made by glock or HK and it would have to have a pistol grip. A bayonet lug and forward grip for advanced ninjas only. An d a bipod NCstar scope for sniper models!
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
I was thinking of this:
122-grain JHP's at 2350 fps, or 154-grain softpoints at 2000 fps. Pretty comparable to .30-30 out of a 16" barrel.
7.62x39mm can be thought of as a rimless, tapered-case .30-30 using spitzer bullets and optimized for reliable feeding.
"Paramilitary" is generally defined as "of or pertaining to an unofficial force organized similarly to a military force," i.e. the Irish Republican Army, Shining Path, drug-cartel security forces, or other organized quasi-military fighting forces.
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O999-paramilitary.html
Small-caliber U.S.-market civilian rifles with modern styling are no more "paramilitary" than Mauser-derived bolt-actions or Remington M700's, IMO. They are just civilian rifles with modern styling.
Historically, most paramilitary forces have used actual military weapons (usually full auto), not non-automatic civilian guns, although there may be exceptions.
76shuvlinoff
Member
In my home stands a .357 Marlin lever and an 870 at the ready, sidearms are positioned to get me to those providing me with that choice if need be. Then there's a 30-30 there for other situations. Feels tactical enough to me.
coinshooter
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Warriortalk has a good section on Leveractions also One of the gunshows did a good tv show last week about the lever action and as is working on a tactial side rail for a lever action.
LibShooter
Member
Lever Action is Good When Things Go Bad
I propose this tactical advantage for a lever over a semi-auto: Suppose you have a failure to fire. Pull the trigger and just get a "click."
With a semi... you have to stop and think, "Somethings wrong!" Then find the charging lever, pull it, reshoulder the weapon, aim and fire.
With a lever... muscle memory will already have you moving the lever before you realize the round didn't fire. The dud's out of the chamber and another's ready to go and your eye may never have left the target.
It's an unlikey scenario, but I've heard the same argument for revolvers over auto pistols.
I propose this tactical advantage for a lever over a semi-auto: Suppose you have a failure to fire. Pull the trigger and just get a "click."
With a semi... you have to stop and think, "Somethings wrong!" Then find the charging lever, pull it, reshoulder the weapon, aim and fire.
With a lever... muscle memory will already have you moving the lever before you realize the round didn't fire. The dud's out of the chamber and another's ready to go and your eye may never have left the target.
It's an unlikey scenario, but I've heard the same argument for revolvers over auto pistols.
TimboKhan
Member
Sigh... The poor lever action. How did it get stuck in this silly argument?
Of course a lever action would be suitable for home defense. Look, they aren't as fast as an AR, nor do they have the capacity. I don't think at any point that anyone would argue that in many ways the average AR (or AK) isn't far more suitable as a combat/defense rifle when compared to the average lever action. But...
But, the lever action rifle isn't exactly garbage either. A lever action carbine is light, fast-handling, has a suitable capacity for 99.9% of home defense scenarios, and is available in chamberings ballistically superior to the AR, and in some cases the beloved AK as well. It has the advantage over the AR as a "survival" rifle thanks to those ballistically superior chamberings, although I fully understand that this isn't really meant to be part of this argument. In my opinion, a .30-30 or a .357 (which would be my choice for a lever action solely for HD) makes for a dandy defense weapon. There are other chamberings that would also work, but off the top of my head, those two are probably the most common and easiest to find. Plus, I really like the .357 as an all-purpose round.
Thats not to say I don't like AR's. I have one with 20 rounds in the mag and one up the pipe not 5 feet from me right now, and if I had to defend my home, that is what I would use. My go-bag, such as it is, contains another two loaded AR magazines and not a single .30-30 round. In fact, my .30-30 sits in the closet. I am simply making the argument that the lever action isn't a bad choice for HD. To further that argument, I am not convinced that there is a "best" choice in terms of rifles for HD.
Well, whatever. In the end, I just think all this labeling of tactical stuff is nonsense. Your stuff either works in the way you wish to use it, or it doesn't, and all the ballistic nylon, kevlar thread and Mil-Spec Monkey patches in the world isn't going to change that.
Of course a lever action would be suitable for home defense. Look, they aren't as fast as an AR, nor do they have the capacity. I don't think at any point that anyone would argue that in many ways the average AR (or AK) isn't far more suitable as a combat/defense rifle when compared to the average lever action. But...
But, the lever action rifle isn't exactly garbage either. A lever action carbine is light, fast-handling, has a suitable capacity for 99.9% of home defense scenarios, and is available in chamberings ballistically superior to the AR, and in some cases the beloved AK as well. It has the advantage over the AR as a "survival" rifle thanks to those ballistically superior chamberings, although I fully understand that this isn't really meant to be part of this argument. In my opinion, a .30-30 or a .357 (which would be my choice for a lever action solely for HD) makes for a dandy defense weapon. There are other chamberings that would also work, but off the top of my head, those two are probably the most common and easiest to find. Plus, I really like the .357 as an all-purpose round.
Thats not to say I don't like AR's. I have one with 20 rounds in the mag and one up the pipe not 5 feet from me right now, and if I had to defend my home, that is what I would use. My go-bag, such as it is, contains another two loaded AR magazines and not a single .30-30 round. In fact, my .30-30 sits in the closet. I am simply making the argument that the lever action isn't a bad choice for HD. To further that argument, I am not convinced that there is a "best" choice in terms of rifles for HD.
Well, whatever. In the end, I just think all this labeling of tactical stuff is nonsense. Your stuff either works in the way you wish to use it, or it doesn't, and all the ballistic nylon, kevlar thread and Mil-Spec Monkey patches in the world isn't going to change that.
Duke of Doubt
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benEzra: "Small-caliber U.S.-market civilian rifles with modern styling are no more "paramilitary" than Mauser-derived bolt-actions or Remington M700's, IMO. They are just civilian rifles with modern styling."
Not quite. They aren't just "modern-styled" (by whom? Prada?). They look and function almost the same as our military's guns, with the sole exception of selective fire. Many armies and police forces use at least some semi-auto-only weapons. Further, they are equipped for accessorization with the same gear used by some militaries. And they are intended primarily for combat. That's para-military, not "modern styling."
Not quite. They aren't just "modern-styled" (by whom? Prada?). They look and function almost the same as our military's guns, with the sole exception of selective fire. Many armies and police forces use at least some semi-auto-only weapons. Further, they are equipped for accessorization with the same gear used by some militaries. And they are intended primarily for combat. That's para-military, not "modern styling."
Kind of Blued
Member
I can't add any personal experience or insight, but I do have this saved on the hard drive:
Ouch.
Ouch.
I can see where a scoped lever rifle in .30-30 might have an advantage in a "hostage' situation or so...
ie putting a precise bullet on target within 'police' sniping range of 50 yards or so. Fact is there are better rifles for that, but it would do in a pinch.
I can see a small department without the budget to arm up to AR-15s etc turning to a trusty lever gun that's more about 'department approved' than about "tacticool." I'd suggest a .30-30 over any other pistol caliber for the 'rifle/carbine role.
Tactics used to mean stuff like fire and manuver and using concealment and cover. Don't know when it transformed into 'black and rubbery and having lasers."
If you practice, (and SASS shooting shows it's possible) it's possible to turn a lever gun into a fighting arm, as opposed to a deer rifle. Thing is in SASS shooting, they DON'T teach cover, concealment, shooting around barriers and under them in the way they do in practical rifle matches. Most lever guns are not 'controlled feeding' and need to be held with the action in a certain range of horizontal to load properly. (Esp the Marlin 1894 series.) Not that it CAN'T be done, rather it adds time to doing it.
Also these guns do have other ergonomic drawbacks, hence the practical leather wrapped levers. Some people have a VERY bad habit of looking down at the action while operating it, or taking it off the shoulder to do so. These habits can be trained away.
Fact is the idea of handing a 'cop' (or civilian in need or militia man or whatever you want to call yoursel) a deer rifle he's already used to is better than handing him a rifle he's never seen.
ie putting a precise bullet on target within 'police' sniping range of 50 yards or so. Fact is there are better rifles for that, but it would do in a pinch.
I can see a small department without the budget to arm up to AR-15s etc turning to a trusty lever gun that's more about 'department approved' than about "tacticool." I'd suggest a .30-30 over any other pistol caliber for the 'rifle/carbine role.
Tactics used to mean stuff like fire and manuver and using concealment and cover. Don't know when it transformed into 'black and rubbery and having lasers."
If you practice, (and SASS shooting shows it's possible) it's possible to turn a lever gun into a fighting arm, as opposed to a deer rifle. Thing is in SASS shooting, they DON'T teach cover, concealment, shooting around barriers and under them in the way they do in practical rifle matches. Most lever guns are not 'controlled feeding' and need to be held with the action in a certain range of horizontal to load properly. (Esp the Marlin 1894 series.) Not that it CAN'T be done, rather it adds time to doing it.
Also these guns do have other ergonomic drawbacks, hence the practical leather wrapped levers. Some people have a VERY bad habit of looking down at the action while operating it, or taking it off the shoulder to do so. These habits can be trained away.
Fact is the idea of handing a 'cop' (or civilian in need or militia man or whatever you want to call yoursel) a deer rifle he's already used to is better than handing him a rifle he's never seen.
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I like them both. A good lever costs as much as an AR and more than an AK. The lever would be perfectly fine in a close (proximity) situation, especially since most people who own a lever are probably older as that is what they grew up with and are most comfortable to shoot.
Would it be better than an AR or AK in a fight, no, but this is not combat situation, it's the hallway. It would be best to use what you are more comfortable with. Me I would prefer an AR over a lever.
AR or Marlin, I don't want to see the forward hole on either one.
Would it be better than an AR or AK in a fight, no, but this is not combat situation, it's the hallway. It would be best to use what you are more comfortable with. Me I would prefer an AR over a lever.
If it's for home defense why isn't it loaded to begin with, especially if it has already been shouldered? That would be the whole point of preparedness.
AR or Marlin, I don't want to see the forward hole on either one.
Nalapombu
Member
I am enjoying the discussion. One thing that has crossed my mind that I would like to get your thoughts on and that is whether or not it gives any of you pause to use an AR or an AK as your primary HD weapon based on the times that we live and the demonization these firearms have endured over the past several years.
Lets say that you have the latest, greatest rigged out AR as your HD weapon and Heaven forbid that one night you are forced to use it to defend your family. There are LOTS of locales in this country these days where a sniveling prosecutor or plaintiffs attorney could gin up lots of hatred and resentment with a jury based solely on the type of weapon you used to defend yourself. Would you want to place your freedom in the hands of people the likes of those that awarded a woman 3 million bucks for spilling hot coffee in her lap while leaving the McD's drive thru while a prosecutor is holding up your "EVIL, BLACK KILLING MACHINE" loaded with enough rounds to take on a platoon and asking that jury to ask themselves "what was this guy afraid of or preparing to do with such a weapon of mass destruction."
That is sadly how things are in a great many areas including several STATES. You can almost hear the gasps from the mouths of the female jurors when the Prosecutor or Plaintiffs attorney stands in front of them for the first time with YOUR perfectly legitimate and appropriate AR in his hands showing them what YOU chose to "defend" yourself. To a great many people an AR or AK only belongs in the hands of the military or police officers. You are not going to get people like that to rationally think through facts when such a weapon is sitting in front of them every single day of the trial. They will form all sorts of nefarious thoughts and opinions about you based on nothing else other than your AR.
If on the other hand, you had chosen a Winchester lever gun in 30-30 to defend yourself and your family, regardless of what area of the country you were in, I doubt very seriously you'd get the abject hatred and resentment from the jury that you would get if your chosen weapon was an AK or AR. In fact I think your choice of a "Cowboy" gun would almost be a non-issue in their minds and they certainly wouldn't be pre-disposed to punishing you.
Shouldn't things like this be taken into consideration when selecting a weapon to protect yourself and family with? I am not saying a lever rifle is the best choice or superior to the AK or AR. I am just raising the point that like it or not, there are millions of people in this country who would be potential jurors that hold the belief that anyone that would own an AK or AR could be capable of anything and cannot be trusted and quite possibly could be mentally imbalanced.
Thoughts?
BD
Lets say that you have the latest, greatest rigged out AR as your HD weapon and Heaven forbid that one night you are forced to use it to defend your family. There are LOTS of locales in this country these days where a sniveling prosecutor or plaintiffs attorney could gin up lots of hatred and resentment with a jury based solely on the type of weapon you used to defend yourself. Would you want to place your freedom in the hands of people the likes of those that awarded a woman 3 million bucks for spilling hot coffee in her lap while leaving the McD's drive thru while a prosecutor is holding up your "EVIL, BLACK KILLING MACHINE" loaded with enough rounds to take on a platoon and asking that jury to ask themselves "what was this guy afraid of or preparing to do with such a weapon of mass destruction."
That is sadly how things are in a great many areas including several STATES. You can almost hear the gasps from the mouths of the female jurors when the Prosecutor or Plaintiffs attorney stands in front of them for the first time with YOUR perfectly legitimate and appropriate AR in his hands showing them what YOU chose to "defend" yourself. To a great many people an AR or AK only belongs in the hands of the military or police officers. You are not going to get people like that to rationally think through facts when such a weapon is sitting in front of them every single day of the trial. They will form all sorts of nefarious thoughts and opinions about you based on nothing else other than your AR.
If on the other hand, you had chosen a Winchester lever gun in 30-30 to defend yourself and your family, regardless of what area of the country you were in, I doubt very seriously you'd get the abject hatred and resentment from the jury that you would get if your chosen weapon was an AK or AR. In fact I think your choice of a "Cowboy" gun would almost be a non-issue in their minds and they certainly wouldn't be pre-disposed to punishing you.
Shouldn't things like this be taken into consideration when selecting a weapon to protect yourself and family with? I am not saying a lever rifle is the best choice or superior to the AK or AR. I am just raising the point that like it or not, there are millions of people in this country who would be potential jurors that hold the belief that anyone that would own an AK or AR could be capable of anything and cannot be trusted and quite possibly could be mentally imbalanced.
Thoughts?
BD
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bikerdoc
Moderator In Memoriam
I dont use the words, taxticool, or ass salt, I just have rifles. I call them by their name, lever action (my favorite) AK, AR, SKS,( none of which I own)
That said, a Marlin 357 lever gun and a mossberg 12 ga. along with a carbine are enough gun for all my needs.
Me to officer "I dont know what happened, I was being attacked in my home so I grabbed my Rifle, I need to see a doctor now for chest pain and then talk to my atty."
Just my deflated .02 about staying below the radar .
That said, a Marlin 357 lever gun and a mossberg 12 ga. along with a carbine are enough gun for all my needs.
Me to officer "I dont know what happened, I was being attacked in my home so I grabbed my Rifle, I need to see a doctor now for chest pain and then talk to my atty."
Just my deflated .02 about staying below the radar .
clarence222
Member
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- 251
I'm no expert, and don't know much about tactical or tacticool. What I do know is this, if things get so bad that my family and I are forced to leave our home, I will be taking along my lever action rifles in 357 as well as my revolvers in 357. I will not be taking any ARs, AKs or other military style weapons. I have thought about this for along time, and have several reasons for this decisions.
Ammuniton availability, it would be very difficult to not find ammo for a 357. since both my lever guns shoot 38 special as well as 357 I have two options. There are many places right now that are out of military calibers, 223, 7.63x39, 308 you name it if its a military caliber it is in short supply right now. Ease of use, I can teach some one how to use a lever action in minutes, in fact if you live in this country and have for very long you should know how to use a lever action or at least have seen someone use one. Stopping power, ok I agree the 357 isn't the most potent caliber or the farthest reaching, however it is a proven man stopper and would be quite useful against many types of animals. Fewer parts, no magazines, everything self contained.
Don't get me wrong the gun closest to me at home is either an 870 in 12 guage or a 1911 45 depending on what room I'm in at the time.
Personally I like all guns, have several military style weapons and am always looking for more. However when its time to leave my home for whatever reasons my "Go Guns will be a Marlin, Puma, Ruger and a Smith and wesson.
Can I carry all 4? No, well at least not very well, I'll carry a rifle and a revolver, my wife will carry the other revolver and my son will carry a rifle as well.
Just my 2 cents worth
Ammuniton availability, it would be very difficult to not find ammo for a 357. since both my lever guns shoot 38 special as well as 357 I have two options. There are many places right now that are out of military calibers, 223, 7.63x39, 308 you name it if its a military caliber it is in short supply right now. Ease of use, I can teach some one how to use a lever action in minutes, in fact if you live in this country and have for very long you should know how to use a lever action or at least have seen someone use one. Stopping power, ok I agree the 357 isn't the most potent caliber or the farthest reaching, however it is a proven man stopper and would be quite useful against many types of animals. Fewer parts, no magazines, everything self contained.
Don't get me wrong the gun closest to me at home is either an 870 in 12 guage or a 1911 45 depending on what room I'm in at the time.
Personally I like all guns, have several military style weapons and am always looking for more. However when its time to leave my home for whatever reasons my "Go Guns will be a Marlin, Puma, Ruger and a Smith and wesson.
Can I carry all 4? No, well at least not very well, I'll carry a rifle and a revolver, my wife will carry the other revolver and my son will carry a rifle as well.
Just my 2 cents worth
Revolver Ocelot
Member
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- Dec 4, 2006
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- 1,470
I've considered getting a 16 inch in 44 mag, cuting the stock down to a chicken head grip and leaving it by my door, call me crazy but I think it sounds cool
Landlocked Pirate
Member
Hey, that's my current set-up, too.
Gordon
Member
Kind of Blued: What kind of light mount is that? Where and how much?
SWC Bonfire
Member
Never have had a "tactical" situation other than trying to rid my place of hogs... have had that exact thing happen with my Yugo SKS... never would have been an issue with my 94... I know because I am used to el-cheapo rem .22 rounds being duds once every 500 or so. I am also much more acccurate with my winchester.
That said, if I had to shoot someone or group of people and knock them down and neutralize them, I would rather have a winchester loaded with 6+1 170 gr. flat-tips and nine more on the bandolier on the stock than the SKS with a couple of stripper clips. The shock/trauma of flat-pointed projectiles is underrated IMO.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
And the Mauser was....?
The U.S. military issue sniper rifle in Vietnam (itself a Mauser derivative) was....?
The .30-06 cartridge the Vietnam military sniper rifle used was originally developed for....?
The current U.S. military issue sniper rifle, the M24/M40 sniper system, is...?
A Remington M700 with synthetic stock is functionally a lot closer to an M24 than an AR-15 is to an M16.
And as I said, the word "paramilitary" does not describe weapons that look vaguely like some military weapons. The word "paramilitary" refers to a non-state-sanctioned fighting force organized along military lines, like the Irish Republican Army or the Shining Path, and using it to refer to civilian guns plays right into the "assault weapon" fraud, IMO.
Dravur
Member
Silliest... thread....ever
Shoot whatever you want, sheesh. Who cares if someone thinks the lever gun is more tactical than an ar-15. just smile and let them go by. You never know when someone like that might go nuts and shank you.
If you want to think that lever guns are equivalent to ARs and AKs, go right ahead. I choose not to. I own both lever guns and ARs. Guess which I am going to go to if the SHTF or the zombies attack....
Shoot whatever you want, sheesh. Who cares if someone thinks the lever gun is more tactical than an ar-15. just smile and let them go by. You never know when someone like that might go nuts and shank you.
If you want to think that lever guns are equivalent to ARs and AKs, go right ahead. I choose not to. I own both lever guns and ARs. Guess which I am going to go to if the SHTF or the zombies attack....
Nalapombu
Member
Thanks for your equally regarded contribution Obi Wan.
BD
BD
Kind of Blued
Member
I haven't a clue. I found the photo on this site many months back and saved it to my hard drive.
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