How About "Tactical" Lever Actions?

[Semmerling]

Sorry guys, everything I wrote on this thread was thrown out (a first).

I guess that lever actions are great tactical weapons....my bad.

 

[Coronach]

No, the problem was that you contributed absolutely nothing to the discussion. If you wish to outline the deficiencies of the lever action in a modern combat environment (and it has them), feel free to have at it. If you just want to post snarky comments from the sidelines and offer nothing of any worth, your posts will vanish.

I have faith that you can see the difference.

Mike

 

[jpatterson]

I wish I wasn't in love with the rifle on post #25

Call me a tactical noob, but that thing looks SLICK. I saw a guy's post here awhile back from California and he also had a couple 'tactical' lever actions, both of which were absolutely beautiful. I'd love to build one someday.

 

[Coronach]

FWIW, my opinion is this:

A lever action gun will certainly work in a "tactical" role (to me, this means the gun is being used as a weapon, not as a range toy or hunting gun). However, there are better choices. The gun is low capacity and (assuming equal experience between operators) slower to achieve follow up shots. Its advantages are simplicity, pointability, non-eeeeeeevil appearance, low cost and the capability of topping off the magazine easily.

Just because there are better options out there doesn't mean the lever action is not a viable defensive gun. It just means there are better options out there.

Mike

 

[Semmerling]

Glad that you are there to determine when my comments reach the "snarky" test, Mike.

To me, the vision of John Wayne sitting on a horse with the reins in his teeth and a lever action with a laser, scope, rail system, bipod and flashlight is my position on the tactical lever action, sorry you don't agree.

 

[Coronach]

It's what moderators do. We moderate. One method of doing this is to remove posts that don't advance the discussion. Also, I wasn't the one who removed your posts.

Now, back on topic...what is your take on the relative merit of the lever action as a tactical tool?

Mike

 

[JImbothefiveth]

low cost

I don't believe it is when compared to, for instance, an SKS, or possibly a saiga rifle.

If you don't want something that looks "tacticool", a Ruger ranch rifle might be good.

 

[Zundfolge]

A lever action gun will certainly work in a "tactical" role (to me, this means the gun is being used as a weapon, not as a range toy or hunting gun). However, there are better choices. The gun is low capacity and (assuming equal experience between operators) slower to achieve follow up shots. Its advantages are simplicity, pointability, non-eeeeeeevil appearance, low cost and the capability of topping off the magazine easily.

Basically a lever action rifle is the "tactical" equivalent of a pump shotgun. Other than door breaching (which you don't do much in home defense) any place you could use a pump shottie, a lever gun would fill the role just fine.

One advantage of a pistol caliber lever gun is you can shoot it at a pistol range (unless the range managers are schmucks). Unless you have some place to shoot clays, you really aren't going to get as much practice in with a shotgun.

And don't underestimate the "its not evil looking".

JImbo has a point, the SKS is probably the most economical "tactical" rifle out there (and with a Tapco stock can be made to look more "tacticool" than the Ruger).

 

[Duke of Doubt]

Zundfolge: "And don't underestimate the "its not evil looking"."

Particularly in the Maine woods.

"When in the Allagash look behind you; 'cause that's .. where the Warden's .. gonna be."

 

[MADDOG]

The secret is out about the "Appalachian Assault Rifle"----------

 

[P. Plainsman]

Basically, these are compact (particularly with barrel chopped to 16"), handy repeating rifles that are rarely subject to intrusive legal regulation, even in anti-gun states. They are easy to acquire for decent prices. You can find a used Marlin .30-30 in fine condition at almost any gun show for $275-300. If it's an older gun it will be very well made and probably have a nice trigger and be a good deal more accurate than an AK.

These rifles are legal (and relatively innocent looking) in a lot of repressive jurisdictions where modern self-loading defensive rifles are prohibited.

Certainly, I'd rather have, say, an AR-15 or an HK-91 for fighting in the open. I'd rather have an SBR Uzi carbine for fighting in my home. But then, I live in a free state, so I could acquire those guns if I wanted them. People in Cali or Massachusetts don't have those options (at least legally). And even in free states, some people just can't afford a modern self-loader.

However, to be fair, the SKS remains a strong option for free state residents on a budget. And yes, I would rather have an SKS in a fight than a levergun. Also, I'd rather have a Rem 870 shotgun than a levergun for defense in the home -- and pump shotguns are rarely restricted even in obnoxious jurisdictions.

All this practicality aside: that chopped black Marlin in post #25 is COOL.

 

[qwert65]

I love lever-actions, In fact it's the only action type that I have for my rifles. However, If I was going into a situation where I "knew" it was gonna get hairy I'd want an AR(hoping to get one once the hysteria dies down) That being said in a normal, defensive situation I wouldn't feel undergunned.

I personally would take a 3030 levergun over an SKS as they only hold 4 more rounds but cannot be topped up(AFAIK) Further since most 7.62 is surplus ball. If I had to kill some one I'd rather use a 170gr flatnose as I think they are more lethal

 

[H2O MAN]

Lever action rifles were tactical since day one.

 

[KevinAbbeyTech]

Lever action rifles were tactical since day one.

That's true.

Lots of law enforcement still uses them.

I think if I couldn't have a semi-auto, I would want a bolt action (I've had more practice.)

I still like the idea of a pump-action shotgun, especially when over-penetration is an issue.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

Basically a lever action rifle is the "tactical" equivalent of a pump shotgun.

A lever action is going to be slower than, say, an 870.

Also, wouldn't you use a lever action for self-defense because you want to use a rifle? There are better rifles for that purpose.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

Jimbo: "Also, wouldn't you use a lever action for self-defense because you want to use a rifle? There are better rifles for that purpose."

Maybe. It's hard to imagine a rifle better suited to defense in a wooded glen than a Win 94. Maybe an SKS, assuming you keep strippers on hand, and I'm not talking about that place in Rumford. But with all that practice with the 94, and its handiness, and the hunting scope ...

 

[JImbothefiveth]

It's hard to imagine a rifle better suited to defense in a wooded glen than a Win 94.

There's always the SKS, or if you're tacticool, an AR in 7.62x39.

But with all that practice with the 94,

You should practice with any gun.

and its handiness,

I'm not sure about the Winchester, but the marlin 1894 is the same size as a saiga rifle.

and the hunting scope

I'm not sure a 9x scope is really well suited to defensive use.

I'm not bashing the lever rifles, and if they work best for you, use them. I'm just saying there are, for most people, better alternatives.

 

[Joe Demko]

Guess I'll jump in here.
I've owned a bunch of "tactical" autoloading rifles over the years. Couple Colt AR's. Couple Bushmaster AR's. Yugo AK. Polish AK. Egyptian AK. Chinese M-14. PTR-91. FN-49. Couple Chinese SKS's. Russian SKS. Couple Mini-14's.
I owned a couple-three "tactical" shotguns, too. There's still a Striker 12-gauge around here somewhere, I'm pretty sure.
I'm all wore out on that "tactical" ****.
See, I had to axe myself questions like "If I buy this really expensive AR upper in .50 Beowulf, what will it allow me to do that I can't already do with this here Marlin .45-70 guide gun?"
Do, please, let's not turn this into a rant about why your "tactical" rifle is COMBAT READY (that's always all caps for some reason) and that old timey levergun ain't. There are members right here at this very board who, armed with off-the-shelf lever rifles and pump shotguns straight from Wallyworld, would visit a fearful bloodletting upon any number of dilettantes who bought their COMBAT READY "tactical" rifle just because_you know_ COMBAT READY is better and better is better.
It is, as it always has been, more a matter of the man than the gun. Work on you 'til you can't improve any more. Then it will be time to worry about the gun you use.

 

[benEzra]

Used in the Maine woods to defend a cabin and timber grove against a couple of assailants, a Win 94 may be a better choice than an M4gery even with all sorts of electronic gear on it.

The W94's main advantage in that role, as I see it, is caliber (.30-30 vs. .223). In that role, I'd personally rather have an autoloading .30-30 equivalent with a 20-round magazine and a red dot (iron sights being hard to see in low light), but that is just my personal preference, and am not knocking anyone else's choices. Certainly a lever gun will work well in competent hands.

It would be interesting to run an IDPA/IPSC style carbine course with a lever-action just to see how it would compare. I know the detachable-magazine guns would be a little faster on long stages, but I wonder how much.

a good deal more accurate than an AK.

How accurate is a typical off-the-shelf Winchester 94 .30-30 with factory ammunition? Given that most AK's will shoot 4" at 100 yards with decent ammo, I don't believe the accuracy difference (if any) between an AK and a 94 will really be significant at any reasonable defensive distance. An AK can shoot playing cards at 50 yards, and that's probably more than good enough for most conceivable defensive purposes.

 

[Eric F]

I'd personally rather have an autoloading .30-30 equivalent with a 20-round magazine

remington mod 8 in 30 remington but the 20 rnd mag might be really hard to come by these days.

It would be interesting to run an IDPA/IPSC style carbine course with a lever-action just to see how it would compare

cowboy action shooting........

 

[Nalapombu]

Girodin, I didn't have a pad and pen at the ready when watching the Wednesday night lineup on the Sportsman Channel. It was on one of the shows with Michael Bane hosting. He was at what was said to be the largest indoor training facility in the country, maybe Valhalla. He was interviewing one of the more popular firearm trainers, at least he's been on these shows several times before. It was he who was talking about the numbers of police agencies, especially rural ones, that were adopting the lever action rifle rather than the AR, for their primary duty rifle. He cited the ease of use and the short amount of time it takes to train people to get up and running with one when compared to teaching a newbie on the AR system.
It didn't appear that he was making the whole thing up, but who knows, he could'a been.

You can go to the website by Lew Bonitz, who makes top notch weapons, and read an article that appeared in SWAT magazine talking about one of his Big Lewie custom Marlin lever guns. I don't know why a LEO magazine like SWAT would waste time and space in their magazine talking about a product that wouldn't have any value at all to modern LEO agencies, but it's possible I guess. Maybe in the upcoming months they'll have an article about a fine Heym Double in 500 NE or a nice Browning Citori.
http://www.grizzlyguns.com//


Thanks for all the comments. Very interesting reading.

BD

 

[AJumbo]

Jeff Cooper opined that an M94 might be the choice for home defense in a jurisdiction where Evil Black Rifles were illegal. He noted that the stock of the M94 might not stand up to delivering a vigorous buttstroke, however.

If things suddenly got interesting, would I rather have something that feeds from a magazine? Sure enough. Would I rather have my Winchester 30-30 than a board with a nail in it? Indeed.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

I'm thinking the steel butt of a 94 looks like it might get a little bit more "vigorous" than that of a sissy-maid rubberized M4.

 

[whited]

.

The word "tactical" is really starting to bother me.

A tactical lever action rifle?

Really ?

That's scraping the bottom of the barrel. What exactly makes a gun
tactical? A light? A laser? Some black paint ? Call me old school, but
I'm confused. I sleep pretty well at night with my "tactical" baseball bat
beside the bed.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

I use "para-military" to describe semi-automatic AR- and AK-patterned rifles. "Tactical" as applied to firearms is silly. They're all "tactical."