How About "Tactical" Lever Actions?

[336A]

Wow a lot of folks here are very dis illusioned, post # 43 stated it best. All of the gadgets and widgets in the world will not make up for crappy marksmanship and lack of tatics. Nor will owning a AR/AK with all the bells and whistles make the owner a soldier, operator or SWAT team member.

I have said this before and will stick with it till the end. It does not matter one iota what firearm you decide to use for those worst case scenerios. Whether it is a revolver or semi automatic for handguns or a levergun, semi auto, or pump action rifle. The difference maker will always be and will continue to be the individual behind the trigger. A very good example of this occured back in 2007 while I was instructing a advanced rifle marksmanship class. During this particular class we had two Canadian counter parts enrolled. They're carbines were a cross between the old M4 and the M4A1 with no capability of mounting optics.

When it came time to conduct Close Quarters Marksmanship they would just flip the rear sight aperature to the low light visibility aperature, which is more like a ghost ring. During this particlar part of the course of fire each student will fire 2 30 round mags for 90 degree controlled pairs L&R, 2x30 for 90 degree turns L&R Rapid pair with Failure drill, 2x30 for L&R 180 degree turns firing controlled pairs, and 2x30 for L&R 180 degree turns doing Rapid Pair with the Failure drill. All shooting was done on a standard M9 qual target and in full kit. The one Canadian student did better than any of our Soldiers which were using Aim Point optics. He literally ate the center (the 5 ring) out of that M9 qual target compared to our guys who had shots scattered all over the target for the most part.

This example clearly demonstrates that as long as one applies the fundementals of marksmanship correctly, along with good tatics the extra gadgets don't mean squat, though they do help. However they will not compensate for bad marksmanship technique or tatics, the same holds true about the platform the individual is using as well. You should have seen the looks on some of the faces when we pulled that guys target and showed it to the class to drive home this point.

The lever action rifle and the cartridges they house are probably one of if not the most practical rifles around. The .30-30 alone has slain all N. American game and will continue to do so into the forseeable futrure. Heck back in the 60's the largest grizzly bear ever taken was slain with a 30-30, that record stood for some time. When was the last time that was done with a AR? To the best of my knowledge there are exactly zero. Every year there are still hunters that use Marlins/Win in .30-30, .35 Rem, .444, .45-70, and .450 Marlin to harvest deer, hogs, black bear, caribou, elk and moose. A good portion of those are taken with the lowly .30WCF to boot.

From puttin' meat on the table to saving your bacon in a worst case scenerio the lever action is very hard to beat.

Again if you can't properly apply the fundementals of marksmanship backed with good solid tactics, your going to be one hurtin' unit at the end of the day regardless of your hardware.

 

[Girodin]

I do not have to be accurate to be lethal with a 12ga

I strenuously disagree with that assertion. You certainly do (unless we are talking about a shot that has missed being lethal when it hits something else) rounds off target do not produce the desired effect and if one is not accurate where are the rounds going? It is well within many peoples ability to miss cleanly even at HD ranges with a shotgun. The spread is not that great and you need to fire accurately to make hits.

I am sort of an advocate of laser sights for HD, and here's why; hopefully none of us will ever have to go thru this, but... When it all happens the fight or flight switch is going to kick in and it results in adrenaline. There's an intimidation factor as well.

I've never bought that lasers have much intimidation factor. It would require the person to look at their chest and realize a red dot was there, and then properly infer that it was coming from a weapon mounted laser. There is a very good chance the person never bothers to look down at their chest to notice the laser. Lasers can have benefit but I personally find playing find the red dot slows me down versus using the sights of my go to weapons to say nothing of point shooting at close distances. I'd advise using tools like shot timers and force on force training to see if that proves true for you or if the laser really brings something of value to the table. A light is a better nighttime accessory IMHO.

12ga. I'd chose it because the risk of ANY collateral damage is extremely low

By collateral damage do you mean someone hit as a result of penetrating walls and or the BG?

If so what are you loading that 12 gauge with that results is less of a danger on that account than does a proper load in a 5.56 rifle?

 

[Big Bill]

...a proper load in a 5.56 rifle?

Girodin - what do you mean and recommend by "proper load" in this statement? (just curious)

 

[Dr.Rob]

To me, customizing a lever gun means a few brass beads in the stock and a bit of leather wrapped around the lever. Maybe a sling. Adding all that stuff designed for an AR series rifles takes away from the advantages of a lever gun, namely that they are light and manuverable and the flat shape makes them a good saddle gun (or behind the seats in a truck) or whatever.

I can't fathom bolting on sights calibrated for a 5.56mm 2.5 inches above the muzzle I doubt the 200 yard setting (if those are indeed sights for a 5.56) would be 'right' even if the 100 yard is 'on'.

Biggest draw back I have found with a pistol cal models popular in cowboy action shooting, is the drop at 100 yards. They are great close up, but at distance your 300gr .44 or .45 is dropping like a rock and most factory sights don't have the flexibility to get you 'out there' which is why tang sights were popular on lever guns. Still you have 10+ rounds and you can top them off 'on the go' just like a pump shotgun.

With a .30-30 you don't have much capacity, but you have the energy to defeat any soft armor a bad guy might wear. You also don't have much drop out to 150 yards. Add any 4x scope and you have a 200+ yard capable rifle, and the ability to take a more precise point of aim.

I had a friend that hunted in Florida with a 30-30 with a see through scope mount, it left his scope a tad high for my taste, but it allowed him to use his iron sights in close. It was a good compromise for his needs hunting in pretty heavy cover. That MIGHT be a reasonable compromise in a 'defensive rifle' role as well, and more useful, not to mention cost effective than some of the modifications I've seen in this thread.

 

[Old krow]

What i actually said was;

I'd say every scenario warrants thinking it through for each individual.

I was merely using the 12ga as the example, my logic if you will, of how I determined what the HD weapon would be. I just happen to be more proficient with one (under those circumstances) than I am with a pistol or a carbine.

I strenuously disagree with that assertion. You certainly do (unless we are talking about a shot that has missed being lethal when it hits something else) rounds off target do not produce the desired effect and if one is not accurate where are the rounds going?

I should have said "as accurate." I do not spend nearly as much time as I would with even a pistol. I'm didn't mean to say that accuracy isn't important, just a lot less effort for me as opposed to a pistol or rifle in that situation. Ultimately hitting the target IS the goal.

I'd advise using tools like shot timers and force on force training to see if that proves true for you or if the laser really brings something of value to the table. A light is a better nighttime accessory IMHO.

A 12 ga is what I was trained to use for CQC and that's the recipe that I use now. If I ever used a light it would be because I had practiced with one. I have friends that swear by them, and that's great, I maintain that I have no opinion on them because I have never used them. And I can see a laser in my house, of course, it could be the dust and hair from the livestock we have that pass for dogs. I don't use one, my girlfriend does. Before she confiscated (for herself) my pistol with the laser, I could find it at night considerably faster than with just sights. I find that practice ultimately means more, but some way to direct a weapon at night is essential.

Force on force would be really cool. I have taken a couple similar classes, although the library of weapons was limited. I'm actively trying to get my girlfriend to go with now. We get our own free training now, but I personally think that you can never have enough and for CQC. I think it's good. Oddly enough she's the reason we go to the range, it wasn't me that got her to go, it was the other way around.

By collateral damage do you mean someone hit as a result of penetrating walls and or the BG?

If so what are you loading that 12 gauge with that results is less of a danger on that account than does a proper load in a 5.56 rifle?

I mean there's no kids, no houses, if they made it to us they killed the cow-like dogs so it's only BG stopping power from there on out. I like the 5.56 and I'm accurate with it, but I am less confident with it. Not that it isn't a viable choice, just not my choice. I'm not at all against the EBRs, I love mine, and if the BG would be so kind as to break into my house during the day I'd grab it.

My personal philosophy is "whatever works" or "whatever you'd stake your life on." I'm not against a lever action, an AR, or any other weapon for that matter, I just said that I wouldn't use them and that's only because I have considerable more trigger time with the 12 ga and I'm operating under the assumption that %80 of the break in happen at night.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

the extra gadgets don't mean squat, though they do help.

Those two statements don't mesh. Either having extra gear on your weapon helps or it doesn't. If it helps, don't knock it.

The problem with "the only thing that matters is training" mindset is that most people who spout that assume the BG is an idiot, or that somehow one has to choose between good training/mindset or good gear. Most people who rip on good gear seem to see only two possibilities.

Poor skills and training + trying to make up for it with the best gear
or
Great skills and superior training + doesn't matter what they're using

But what about the third option?
Great skills, superior training and the best gear?

I grow weary of people criticizing other shooters for using modern equipment and weapons and the latest additions to their weapons. It is always with an air of condescension as if the shooter who has the most stuff for their weapon must in turn be the worst marksman or some sort of mall ninja. Don't forget that all those gadgets were invented for real operators, not just internet commandos. Real SWAT teams use Eotechs. Rangers and SF do use night vision or IR designators. Telescoping stocks, forward grips, and single point slings can be found on weapons of guys who do real shooting against real bad guys all over the world. Guys who have much more tactical skills and training that any of us in this thread will ever have. And do they use lever-actions? No, they don't.

 

[Big Bill]

Guys who have much more tactical skills and training that any of us in this thread will ever have. And do they use lever-actions? No, they don't.

Ragnar, most of us here are not professionals and don't have the training to use all that specialized equipment. I grew up with a lever action rifle beginning with a Daisy BB gun. At the age of 12, I graduated to a Winchester 94, which was my primary hunting rifle till I was 30. And, I've owned my Winchester 94 all my life and am more proficient with it than anything else I own.

I was trained on an M16A1 in the military (1970 - Fort Ord), but never saw any combat and wasn't in law enforcement. And, so when I got home I went right back to my 30-30. I'm not an operator and don't want to be one. All I want is a rifle that I can hunt with, that I'm very familiar with, and that I can defend my family with. A standard Marlin 336 or Winchester does that just fine.

I think what we're trying to say here is that there are acceptable alternatives to an AR. I have nothing but admiration for anyone who is profecient with whatever firearm they choose for HD/SD. And, there is NO DOUBT that an operator with state of the art equipment and great tactical training is formitable indeed. But, in the meantime, I'm not going to rush out and buy an overpriced AR. I guess I'm just too old to change.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I'm not an operator and don't want to be one. All I want is a rifle that I can hunt with, that I'm very familiar with, and that I can defend my family with. A standard Marlin 336 or Winchester does that just fine.

Then you're not really looking for a tactical lever action, just a lever action. My point is that you cannot really paint a lever action black, put a red dot and a single point sling on it and all of a sudden have a rifle that a SWAT pointman would want to use. Lever actions are great for all the things you mentioned you want out of a rifle. They are not great for the things tactical teams need out of their rifles. And no amount of add-ons will make them so.

 

[Big Bill]

Ragnar.. ++ 1000

 

[336A]

Those two statements don't mesh. Either having extra gear on your weapon helps or it doesn't. If it helps, don't knock it.

If your going to quote someone then quote the entire sentence or two that was used. Don't just take a snipit of a sentence as you did from my last post and make it fit your agenda which in this case is your opinion. What I said makes complete sense if you read the two sentences in it's entireity. A CCO/ACOG on a rifle will will not turn a crappy shooter into a good shooter. The equipment does indeed help an individual who is already a good marksman when it comes to reflexive (CCO) firing vs using iron sights for reflexive firing.

Don't forget that all those gadgets were invented for real operators, not just internet commandos

Right along with a handful of other useful stuff such as the hand held GPS.

Rangers and SF do use night vision or IR designators. Telescoping stocks, forward grips, and single point slings can be found on weapons of guys who do real shooting against real bad guys all over the world. Guys who have much more tactical skills and training that any of us in this thread will ever have. And do they use lever-actions? No, they don't.

Correct so do the rest of us. NOD"s, lasers, and gun lights are all standard equipment for all Soldiers that are in a manuever element. BTW IR lasers are just that lasers not IR designators. Their use as a designator is secondary to it's main role which is a weapon aiming light/device. Of course the military don't use lever action rifles, the lever action was never a military issued weapon in the U.S. None the less that does not mean that a individual can't use one (lever action) to save they're hide from a BG during a home invasion type scenerio, nor is it any less effective.

Of course SWAT teams don't use lever actions either as they like to fashion themselves after us (the military). This means for the most part using the same equipment and modifieing our tactics for entering a building and clearing rooms to fit they're purposes.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Are you....making a point or just trying to rip on me? Seriously. I'm having trouble seeing exactly what you are postulating in that post beyond picking apart my previous post.

 

[Old krow]

I love looking at other people's point of views, especially about guns. This thread has made me realize that I have really over looked something... I no longer have a lever action rifle and I must now remedy that situation.

 

[Girodin]

Girodin - what do you mean and recommend by "proper load" in this statement? (just curious)

My current "proper load" is a 75 gr Hornady TAP round. I'm sure there are others that could work but this round does the two things I want. First and most importantly it offers adequate penetration on the BG. If a round wont do that then it is automatically disqualified in my mind. If I need to use a weapon in defense it is because I am in imminent danger and I need to stop a threat now. That threat is much more serious, or perhaps proximate is a better word, IMHO than possibly hitting something/someone else. If I cannot stop that person from killing me nothing else matters much. Things like glasser slugs and birdshot may penetrate walls less but they do not meet this first very important criteria.

The second characteristic is that it tends to breakup when it hits other stuff like a dresser or a wall. Because it breaks up it penetrates such things much less than many pistol rounds or even buckshot rounds.

I use a 75 grain round because my "go to" AR has a 1:7 twist.

The opposite end of the spectrum would be rounds designed for max penetration through barriers.

I'm sure others may have particular rounds they think are better but these are the general characteristics that I want a round to have for indoor HD use where overpenetration is a great concern. Anything that can get the job done on a BG poses some risk of penetrating walls and the like. There is a spectrum though and some choices will penetrate more or less.

http://www.hornadyle.com/

 

[benEzra]

1. Sheetrock (drywall) doesn't slow any round down much. If you shoot in the house, walls will not stop any serious round.

2. Twelve pine boards will not stop a .223 round.

3. Shooting stuff is fun."

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm

Do be aware they were testing 5.56x45mm FMJ in that test.

Here's a test of .223 JHP and SP against drywall:

http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/results.html

 

[Deaf Smith]

If you want to get a 30/30 to stop after a wall or two I can see four ways.

1) One of those Remington 'accelerator' sabots with a .223 JHP in it.

2) Handload a .30 cal 'Plinker' 100 grain slug on the 30/30.

3) A Glaser 30/30 round (yes they don't make that yet but if they did....)

4) If Speer would put the 110 gr Gold Dot M1 Carbine load on the 30/30 case!

Deaf

 

[ECVMatt]

Don't overlook these:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=927609

Federal 125SP.

They are a pretty good load for an urban setting if over penatration is a concern.

I spoke with a police office who worked a rural job and he used this load in his .30-30. He praised it highly and swore by it.

 

[AStone]

About a year and a half ago, I started this thread
about light loads for .30-30 over on Marlin Owners Forum .

It's up on page 21 now.

My motivation then had more to do with small game loads, but I think it's relevant here, too,
since full on 150 or 170 gr factory loads aren't really necessary for HD, especially given penetration concerns.

I've learned a ton there.

 

[Big Bill]

Thanks Girodin! Great information... Nematocyst - that's a great thread. Thanks for sharing it.

 

[animus_divinus]

i just found this thread.. and i have to put in my 2 cents... after doing various testing, and research, it turns out when you load a .357 magnum cartridge to the upper end of its SAAMI rating itll achieve muzzle velocities and muzzle energies similar to that of a 30-30, with a shorter throw, and a cartridge you can fire in your handguns as well.. screw .30-30, go with either a 357 or a 44 mag lever action, either one is going to have more impact than a 5.56mm, plus you can hold 10 rounds in a 20 inch...

 

[Domino]

Marlin 1894CSS .357 Magnum
-XS Sights & Rail
-MPI Synthetic Stock
-Burris 2-7X compact scope
-Leupold QD rings (high)

 

[PR-NJ]

Noob question...

Who is this "operator" you speak of?

 

[Sheepdog1968]

When I travel, as many of you do, it's impractical to take a large number of firearms. It can lead to friction with my significant other, plus it can be a pain to haul all the stuff in and out of hotel rooms. I like to take a lever action to the range to practice as it's my primary hunting rifle. When visiting friends on road trips, we often go shooting. As such, often my lever action is my only long arm. It is set up for hunting 16.75" barrel, 2.5X Scout scope w quick release rings, XS ghost ring sights. I could easily use it for self defense as well if I had to and feel quite comfortable with it since I practice a lot with it at the range to stay sharp for hunting. I would never call it tactical. I would say that it lends itself to being a practical self defense weapon. The only thing I've done to allow it serve as a role for self defense is to buy an adaptor so I can mount a light in case i need it when it is dark. As for capacity, I don't worry about it as I also bring a semi-auto pistol along as a back up weapon. I often don't travel in states where I need to worry about pistol laws.

 

[OrangePwrx9]

I've got a couple of accurate Marlin 1894s I've considered for HD/SD. One is .44 Mag., the other .357; both bought new and babied. The problem is I don't quite trust them...or more accurately, I don't quite trust me using them. Seems like I get at least one jam in every range session. It may be me short stroking or maybe they're not quite broken in; but whichever it is, it destroys confidence. If I've got a serious problem, I'd rather not be thinking about how to operate the lever to get the next shot.

Long story short, a Mini-14, an AR or a Saiga are better choices for the roles being discussed here. The gun is 'programmed' to get the next round into battery; no familiarity or practice needed. If the semi-autos weren't available, the lever guns would be a good second choice.
Bob

 

[1911 man]

replay to post 118

This is in reference to post 118, about using certain firearms in the home.

So, I guess we've decided that if you're expecting a war to break out in your neighborhood, then you'd better have and AR with hundreds of loaded magazines readily available. Otherwise, a lever action gun is suitable for everyday defense against BGs and home invaders. But, in reality, has anyone considered how dumb it would be to use either an AR or lever action gun inside their own home? My big fear is over penetration and thus killing some innocent neighbor.

In reference to my 30-30, I made this just for fun, I wouldn't use it as a first line firearm in a home.

BUT....

A 5.56x45 55gr round would more likely bounce around in a target. Even if it did over penetrate, it would have deformed so greatly it would do little damage. Should a person miss, the 5.56 in 55gr has such velocity it would deform or shred apart and over penetrate less than other calibers.

Now... handguns. The four primary handgun calibers (9x19mm, .357sig, .45acp, .40s&w), even with hollowpoints, will almost certainly over penetrate within the ranges of a home. Remember firearm safety; know what’s behind your target. Although a handgun cartridge will be deformed, it will over penetrate. And let’s not talk about using FMJ’s for defense… that’s GUARANTEED over penetration. This IS NOT a defense designed/intended bullet.

If a miss occurs, the popular 9x19 is one of the worst over penetrating calibers, second only to the .357sig, but the .357sig was designed by speer and sig sauer to have similar terminal ballistics as the .357 magnum… and if you know history, s&w created the .357 magnum to penetrate what was used as body armor during that time. The .357 mag, and by extension the .357 sig, was made TO PENETRATE. That was the goal of the .357sig as requested by law enforcement - to accurately penetrate barriers such as dense clothing, windshields, and other barriers without losing significant penetrability to the target or being deflected to the point of losing significant accuracy.

To minimize over penetration of both the target and missed shots, consider frangible rounds. Even a frangible round in a human target can cause sufficient damage to cause the assailant to reconsider their motivation in continuing this course of action.

The firearm used in our lives is important, but spend an equal amount of time learning about ammunition and ballistics. More time even. Ask yourself if you know what frangible ammo, a bonded bullet, or a nosler tip is? If you don’t, more time needs to be spent learning about ammunition. Yes, the firearm is important, but in the end it’s your ammunition that does the work and it is the ammunition that can cause collateral damage. It’s the ammo that does all the work and provides you the end results you will have to answer for and pay the consequences for. Take time to learn about it. Trust me, being a firearms instructor, range safety officer, gunsmith, and custom [ammo] reloader is what I do.