How About "Tactical" Lever Actions?

[JShirley]

After a few years around firearms, I can say that it would be wise for most of us to use what we enjoy using. Yes, if the Huns are coming, we should perhaps grab our most fearful implement of directed doom, but absent the Horde, we may as well use what we want and can reasonably use.

If we enjoy a tool, we are more likely to practice with it. Perfect practice makes perfect. Anyway, I have to agree that a good lever action feels good in the hand, and is a pleasure to use, even if a dedicated warfighting piece like an AR may be more effective against the masses of Red Chinese that might roll over a border at any minute. For the threats we are likely to encounter, the lever gun should work pretty well.

John

 

[ECVMatt]

I don't think I have ever advocated shooting pasture poodles w/ a 336

I could be wrong though..

I have a RRA 16" that I have been shooting a lot lately. While it is a great gun, I wouldn't use it to shoot 400 yards at pasture poodles either. First I wouldn't want to chase brass all over the prairie and it won't quite shoot minute of PP out to 400 yards. I have different rifles for that sort of thing.

This is the upper I am currently using, it is really great:

I am going with your last statement. I really think folks should use what works best for them and that they shoot a lot. Whatever you enjoy or practice with is what you should choose first.

Matt

 

[JShirley]

Good, we're in agreement, then. It just seemed a little unfair to pick a dedicated varminter to compare to a lever gun, when most home defense types are picking a 16" version.

Personally, I think I'm going to start using my "new" 1894M because it's cool and will tend to cause less hearing damage if I haven't had time to get to my Peltors...Yeah, I have thousands of rounds of trigger time on an M4, and my own "4gery", but I'm not that concerned at this point that GA will be overrun by blue helmets or anything!

John

 

[JESmith]

lever actions in law enforcement

Back a long time ago, I did a stint as a radio repairman for Motorola. Whenever a Texas DPS (state highway patrol) car came in, they always had a pump shotgun, a mini-14, and a lever action 45-70. I asked one one of the troopers what for. He said they used them for road blocks. Apparently they considered them a good car stopper. He said with a mini-14 you had to target the driver. With a 45-70 you just had to target the engine. Not sure if this was true state-wide or just in my neck of the woods.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

What is silly is posting a dedicated target/varmint gun as though it's a typical defensive setup AR rifle.

I only posted the target gun as an example. I wouldn't use one for self-defense, because a semi-auto target gun might be unreliable.

A better example might be a Ruger ranch rifle. They can be had in "non-tacticool" format, and I think they are less expensive, and I hear they are usually reliable, but not consistently accurate. Other than that, I don't know too much about them.

 

[Gordon]

I want to see a picture of the elusive WWG light mount! They (Wild West Guns) don't even advertise it!

 

[geologist]

It won't give your family cover either. Looks sweet but I would worry about Over penetration in home defence more than anything.

In the house I have these with 2 3/4" OO buck.

 

[geologist]

I want to see a picture of the elusive WWG light mount! They (Wild West Guns) don't even advertise it!

Look at post #96 in this thread.

 

[1911 man]

My tactical lever with photos

I had decided to bring an old 100+ yr old design into the 21st century. This is my first and only lever action; it is a Marlin 336cs chambered in 30-30. 30-30 has similar terminal ballistics as the AK47's 7.62x39 cartridge, a cartridge more than acceptable to be similar to. Here are some of my photos. The gun was bought used for $250.00 and using ebay, over seas vendors, spare components I happened to have, and other connections and deals, this end project cost less than $500.00.

It started with a 20” barrel which was cut to 16.5” (16.5” so that the matching magazine tube was long enough for 5 a 30-30 cartridges without excess space), it has an 11 degree crown cut into it, Ram-Line synthetic stock which was painted with charcoal grit paint for extra grip potential, the finish is brownell’s paint, it has XS Sights Lever Rail, Magpul AFG; MBUS sights; and rails, Pachmayr 250D recoil pad, Wolff reduced hammer and lever spring to reduce trigger pull, Specter Gear ERB 200 sling, GGG front Sling Thing, a multi-reticle red dot, and a Surefire G2 light mounted with a generic 1” sight ring with a generic pressure switch. I wanted to place a 3-point sling AND have extra ammo on the buttstock. There is no such buttstock suspension device, so I made one with 550 cord. I also used charcoal 550 cord wrapped around the lever to match the stock grit paint. Here are some of the pictures of this project.


Original 336cs


Completed tactical modification - left side


Completed tactical modification – right side with light and cartridge carrier


Light


Front view with flip-up sights raised



Buttstock suspension


Lever wrap


With 3-Point sling

 

[Badlander]

Nice work 1911 man. You spent some time digging up old posts this weekend.

 

[kwelz]

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=60078

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

A Winchester 94 in .30-30 with a 9x scope is a lot more "tactical," meaning used or useful in tactics, than a plastic .223 covered in electronic crap.

The fact that you call it "electronic crap" just tells me that you probably don't understand the utility optics, lights, NODs, and designators can have in a combat situation.

As far as "tactical lever action", it's essentially an oxymoron. Like a "tactical" muzzle loader. The fact is, you just cannot put as many rounds on as many targets fast enough with a lever action. Their very design makes them slow to reload, and needing reloading often. That is inherently inferior in a situation where many rounds on multiple targets is required. In fact, the idea that one could make a lever action "tactical" is kind of the mall-ninja mindset in action. As if a flat black pain job and an Eotech could make a slow rifle into something more useful than an AR-15. "Tactical" does indeed pertain to something that gives the operator greater ability in achieving a mission, and the tactics he uses in that mission. "Tactical" starts long before the engagement. That means picking a rifle you know will give you the most utility in an engagement. No serious SWAT/mil/LEO team considers lever action rifles as a reasonable choice when choosing long guns. You simply cannot shoot them fast enough, reload them fast enough, or carry as many rounds into an engagement. They are obsolete in terms of being a combat weapon. Good for coyotes or other pests? Sure. Good for having a good time at the range? You bet. But good for real combat against real enemies? Not a chance. Anyone who knows anything about really going into building against armed bad guys will pass over a lever action every time.

As far as LE agencies switching to lever actions, that's news to me. None of the agencies I interact with have them. Only AR-15s and shotguns.

 

[Girodin]

The AFG looks like it is in a little close. Of course that is just looking at it w/o handling it and without even seeing the thing being shouldered, but still.

I'm also curious what kind of cheek weld one can get with that optic and the MBUS.

 

[788Ham]

TimboKhan, I agree with the Win. .375 comments, 220 gr Flat nosed Hornady's await the BG in my house. The noise level, when one is deprimed inside the house is something I'm not worried about, if it was, I wouldn't have the Win. .375! A .30-30 is a good round, not going to argue that fact, but imagine how the BG's going to look running across the street, with one leg blown off at the ass! Tin cup time, and wishing he'd have thought of a different line of work before he bothered to break in my front door.

Thanks for your service Jar-head, I was Navy 67-71, Brown water navy, USS Gunston Hall LSD-5 OORRAAHH ! Semper Fi

 

[Dookie]

I had a discussion with a friend who thinks all AK/AR style firearms are bad and are made to kill. He hunts with a 94 30-30 (he hasn't caught on yet that a firearm made for hunting is made to KILL also). I asked him if he realized that by his definition of what makes the AR style bad, hi capacity, fast shooting, black, the usual, is what makes his firearm so nice.
Say what you want about lever versus semi, the lever action is a great firearm. It has decent capacity, it cycles really fast, and it shoots a hi power load, more powerful than the standard AR and about equal to the AK.
So I told my friend that if he painted his rifle black it could be considered a "tactical" firearm just like the ones he didn't like.

I am just thinking that in the days before semi auto's were common the lever would be an amazing short range military firearm. The only issue is reloading.

 

[Dionysusigma]

I am just thinking that in the days before semi auto's were common the lever would be an amazing short range military firearm. The only issue is reloading.

Indeed. You load it once and shoot all week long.

 

[AStone]

Holy moley.

That lever rifle up in post 109 is wicked.

 

[Big Bill]

So, I guess we've decided that if you're expecting a war to break out in your neighborhood, then you'd better have and AR with hundreds of loaded magazines readily available. Otherwise, a lever action gun is suitable for everyday defense against BGs and home invaders. But, in reality, has anyone considered how dumb it would be to use either an AR or lever action gun inside their own home? My big fear is overpenetration and thus killing some innocent neighbor.

BTW, I have an SKS in case war breaks out down the block and a couple of 30-30 leverguns in case I want to "deploy" ( ) a capable rifle when I go to the mountains. I think this argument about what is tactical and what ain't, is kinda funny. Instead, maybe we should be analyzing what is practical and what is impractical in an urban environment.

Hello 1911 man, welcome to the forum and thanks for the pictures. You did good, Sir!

 

[Trebor]

I recently wrote an examiner article on this topic.

Tips on using the lever-action rifle for self defense

 

[Big Bill]

Rob - that's a very good article. Thanks!

Do you think or believe a lever action rifle can be safely used as a defensive weapon in a home in a residential neighborhood? I've seen how easily a high powered pistol or rifle round penetrates walls ect. in a residencial home. I'd never use my 30-30 Marlin or Winchester in my own house. I like my neighbors too much and don't want to do any jail time for killing someone in an adjacent room or house accidentally.

 

[Girodin]

has anyone considered how dumb it would be to use either an AR or lever action gun inside their own home? My big fear is overpenetration and thus killing some innocent neighbor.

Not only has it been discussed ad nauseum it has been pointed out countless times that rifles firing the proper bullets pose less of an over penetration threat than do pistol bullets or even buckshot. In terms of over penetration a 5.56 round with proper bullet is possibly about as good as you are going to get in terms of minimizing over-penetration in something that also has enough penetration to be adequate for defensive use.

What do you think is better to use? Please explain exactly why it would be dumb, and what would be smarter to use in its place and why.

A 5.56 being a huge over penetration risk is a myth that some people just cannot seem to get past.

 

[Girodin]

I like my neighbors too much and don't want to do any jail time for killing someone in an adjacent room or house accidentally.

I like my neighbors too and have no more desire to unintentionally hit an innocent than does any one else but I suggest you also research the legal doctrine of transferred intent.

 

[Old krow]

"Tactical" is essentially derived from "use in battle" or the ability to do so. It's basically the battle (or your adversary) that decides whether or not a weapon is tactical. In truth you could interchange "practical" and "tactical" it would have the same effect basically.

I'd say every scenario warrants thinking it through for each individual. I would not go into combat with one (not willingly anyway) or put myself into a situation where there are multiple targets in close quarters. But, if I found myself there I think that I could manage. I also would not choose an AR for HD either.

If I had to choose one for the sole purpose of HD it would be one of the 1894 variants or the 1892 Win Trapper because of the calibers and the smaller barrels. Both come in large pistol calibers and have a mag cap of 9-10 with 16" (ish) barrels.

What features would you have on it or do you think it SHOULD have?

Enough ammo to do the job, a way to aim it, and most importantly, proficiency in making the weapon serve it's intended purpose. Most home invasions happen at night so being able to quickly acquire a target at night is essential. Otherwise I (meaning me personally) wouldn't gadgetize a HD weapon.

I am sort of an advocate of laser sights for HD, and here's why; hopefully none of us will ever have to go thru this, but... When it all happens the fight or flight switch is going to kick in and it results in adrenaline. There's an intimidation factor as well. There's also an "I gave my position away" factor too, but I think that it's still worth it in the end. My girlfriend and I will both grab our pistols, I keep mine until I clear my sons room and then I using the street howitzer. I'd go with night sights for sure, but that and a laser is about as far as I would go with "accessorizing" that weapon... or any HD weapon for that matter.

Cost of ammo isn't a factor for me, I do not have to be accurate to be lethal with a 12ga so I do not practice as much as I do with my CCW, but if I did, I'd want a fairly common caliber. .357,.45,.44 should all do pretty well.

What do you think is better to use? Please explain exactly why it would be dumb, and what would be smarter to use in its place and why.

Not to answer for the poster, but, 12ga. I'd chose it because the risk of ANY collateral damage is extremely low and I (meaning me) cannot acquire and neutralize a target faster with a rifle or more accurately with a pistol.

 

[benEzra]

in reality, has anyone considered how dumb it would be to use either an AR or lever action gun inside their own home? My big fear is overpenetration and thus killing some innocent neighbor.

.223 with suitable civilian JHP penetrates less, not more, in typical building materials than 9mm JHP, .45 JHP, .357 JHP, or 00 buckshot. If your situation is such that you can't safely shoot .223, you can't safely shoot much more than birdshot.

I am just thinking that in the days before semi auto's were common the lever would be an amazing short range military firearm.

A fair number of soldiers during the Civil War thought so.

 

[Big Bill]

Girodin - thanks for the info. I don't read many threads that concern EBRs. Perhaps I will re-consider the topic. However, I don't think I'll be buying an AR anytime soon. I'll probably just keep using my 9mm with the appropriate ammo.

I was thinking about this test. It says this at the end:

"Lessons learned:

1. Sheetrock (drywall) doesn't slow any round down much. If you shoot in the house, walls will not stop any serious round.

2. Twelve pine boards will not stop a .223 round.

3. Shooting stuff is fun."

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm