How About "Tactical" Lever Actions?

[Hawk]

Kind of Blued: What kind of light mount is that? Where and how much?

I am not Kind of Blued, nor do I portray him on the internet but I believe that's a picture of Wild West's Alaskan Guide in .457WW Magnum, SBR / "Mare's Leg" mod, big loop lever, etc.

http://www.wildwestguns.com/alaskanguide.html

If memory serves, the light rail was a WWG back room concoction but was available separately and on the non-tax-stamp stuff. I could be wrong on this part.

Give Ken a call and he'll fix you up.

 

[X-Rap]

I carried a 94 behind the seat of my truck when I worked in SoCal years ago and kept it loaded in the RV I lived in.
Sucked keeping it cased and unloaded in the truck but beat the alternative in that wonderful state.
A lever ain't no AR but I sure don't feel naked with one and that famous AK bank robbery shootout in Hollywood could have probably been stopped with one.

 

[Travis Bickle]

During his time with the Texas Rangers, a lever action was Joaquin Jackson's weapon of choice, even though he could have had anything else he wanted.

IMO, Jackson's opinions on gun laws are dubious but his opinions on guns are not.

 

[thunder173]

I think I'll jest sit on the porch with a hot cup of mud and watch the children play. Of course my old Winchester .44 Magnum Trapper with 10 rounds in it,...will be at me side. Just to make sure the children play nice.

"Beware of the man with one gun,...."

 

[stratus]

I think it's a good idea, and to add a rail to my M1895 would be interesting. It may happen. I am a fan of the .45-70 regardless of the environment, though some will disagree with me on this. If you are surrounded by sheet rock it may be best to reach for your PISTOL or a cheap SxS that works, and use the rifle if the SHTF. My vote for a tactical lever gun goes to the M1895. Chop the barrel, install ghost rings and a rail and an aimpoint. Use LeveRevolutions in it and you have a round with high velocity and plenty of power for tactical application. So if you can afford it, why not? I'd love to see any pics if someone has anything like this.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

benEzra: "And the Mauser was....?"

Military.

"The U.S. military issue sniper rifle in Vietnam (itself a Mauser derivative) was....?"

Military.

"The .30-06 cartridge the Vietnam military sniper rifle used was originally developed for....?"

A military cartridge.

"The current U.S. military issue sniper rifle, the M24/M40 sniper system, is...?"

Military.

"A Remington M700 with synthetic stock is functionally a lot closer to an M24 than an AR-15 is to an M16."

Yes, in some ways.

Your definition of "para-military" (IRA, Sundero Luminoso) is not one I'd agree to, but it's not totally out there. But "modern-styled" is a neologism at best. Semi-automatic M16-pattern rifles are used in theater, BTW. When I first settled on the term last week, I posited that nobody would like the term "para-military" but me. It isn't perfect, but it's a darned sight better as a weapon descriptor than "tactical" or "assault rifle" or even "modern-styled." Sometimes you have to call an entrenching tool an entrenching tool.

 

[Art Eatman]

Back some forty years or so, "para-military" was used to designate semi-auto versions of the military selective fire weapons. ARs, AKs, HKs and such.

E.g, the G-3 was a battle rifle; the HK 91 was the para-military civilian version...

 

[Daizee]

I am a fan of the .45-70 regardless of the environment, though some will disagree with me on this. If you are surrounded by sheet rock it may be best to reach for your PISTOL...

Apparently most pistol rounds over-penetrate thru walls too. Wall safety might actually be better achieved by a light, fast bullet driven way beyond its designed operating velocity. Like a 125gr .357 soft point from a carbine. There are similarly equivalent loads in the .30-30. If they hit at close range they probably come apart pretty fast.

A set of comparitive barrier tests of various pistol ammo thru carbines would be very cool to see. I can only shoot paper around here or the produce section would be in grave danger. :-(

-Daizee

 

[chuzy2]

I just bought a Marlin 1894C in 357 magnum. My HD and carry gun has been a S&W M19 2". For in the house I would stick to the 19 just for close quarters and light manipulation. I'm old school when it comes to separation of light and gun. For exterior of the property I would opt for the carbine. I wouldn't feel underarmed with it. The .357 is my personal favorite cartridge. It has excellent terminal ballistics and is an economical plinker. Here in Indiana it is now legal to use carbines that fire handgun cartridges for deer hunting. The all around perfect gun?

 

[Daizee]

I love the .357 too.

A 2" anything is way too short for in the house, IMO.
you give up power, sight radius, and shootability in favor of noise, blast, and flash. Bad trade unless you're talking concealment.

The carbine is a much better choice.
Personally I like a 4-6" .38spl+P. And the same round out of that carbine would hit like a .357 in a 4" barrel, but with drastically less noise and blast.

I have no experience with it personally, but on paper from a carbine, the right (buffalo bore or lil'gun handload 158gr) .357 load at 180yds hits like a .357 from a 4" barrel at the muzzle. Out at 300yds (assuming a ladder sight?) it hits like a .38spl+p at the muzzle. Good for the zombie-paranoid to that range if you can compensate for the drop. A .30-30 gives you more margin for error, but the .357 gives you versatility, capacity, and compatibilty. That's a killer app if I ever heard one.

Too bad Marlin only seems to make a few dozen a year. If I could have the 1894c for the same $279 as that 336 down the road we'd have his and hers models already.

-Daizee

 

[stratus]

Apparently most pistol rounds over-penetrate thru walls too. Wall safety might actually be better achieved by a light, fast bullet driven way beyond its designed operating velocity. Like a 125gr .357 soft point from a carbine. There are similarly equivalent loads in the .30-30. If they hit at close range they probably come apart pretty fast.

A set of comparitive barrier tests of various pistol ammo thru carbines would be very cool to see. I can only shoot paper around here or the produce section would be in grave danger. :-(

All true; my point was that pistols are often much handier in close quarters and good shot placement to the vitals with a pistol may be your best option if one lives in a beehive like the one I'm trying to get out of right now. Fortunately there are a few JHP options out there that do not meet penetration requirements that certain agencies require so if you HIT your target, the odds of collateral damage go way down. I'd hate to imagine what a miss from a .45-70 in low light, or even overpenetration, would affect my immediate surroundings.

If it's pitch dark and my magnetic door alarm goes off, I'm reaching for the P99 with the X5 light. If I hear machinegun fire outside, I'm loading and slinging the M1895G (thus bringing us back on topic) and all the ammo and the pistol, bugout bag and all that good stuff. And getting the hell outta there with my reasonably full gas tank.

 

[Dookie]

Would you want to place your freedom in the hands of people the likes of those that awarded a woman 3 million bucks for spilling hot coffee in her lap while leaving the McD's drive thru

This is not a legitimate argument, look into the case and see what really happened. Then you will know why she was awarded money.
Even if it was true, a prosecutor would be bound by law to only state the facts. I even had a hard time typing that. And the first thing out of your mouth should be, "I thought he was going to harm me/family/friends/stranger, I want a lawyer." It's a good point, but in the eyes of the law it has no justification.

But the legalities are not in question, especially with a good lawyer.

The lack of available ammunition is a good line of reasoning. But there are so many conversions to the AR that it makes it a superb all around tool.

But it does not matter which is better, what matters is what you are better with.

 

[JFrame]

I just bought a Marlin 1894C in 357 magnum. My HD and carry gun has been a S&W M19 2". For in the house I would stick to the 19 just for close quarters and light manipulation. I'm old school when it comes to separation of light and gun. For exterior of the property I would opt for the carbine. I wouldn't feel underarmed with it. The .357 is my personal favorite cartridge. It has excellent terminal ballistics and is an economical plinker. Here in Indiana it is now legal to use carbines that fire handgun cartridges for deer hunting. The all around perfect gun?

chuzy2 -- we have very similar approaches. My nightstand gun is a S&W Pro-60 .357 (3" barrel). For longer reach, I maintain a Winchester Trapper, also in .357.

I'm not advocating this combo as a "perfect solution" for anyone else, but it works for me and I feel comfortable with it...

 

[MGD 45]

As an LEO, there was a time, that our wonderful City Counsel wouldn't allow us to carry the "evil black rifles" in our patrol cars, because they didn't want their "Mayberry PD" looking too military to the locals.

So for quite a while, when I was in the Patrol Division, I kept my Winchester Model 94, .30-30 rifle in the trunk. Kept the tube fully loaded, had a buttstock cover with 9 more additional rounds. No optics, so it could be dropped, banged around & didn't have to worry about scopes being knocked out of alignment.

When the rifle was used to dispatch some larger animals injured during car wrecks, no one seemed offended or scared, because it is such an iconic American rifle ( as seen in westerns), that no one gave it a second glance.

The rifle has a plenty powerful enough cartridge to kill any human or animal within 200 yards in my neck of the woods......Now that we can carry the AR-15's........I've got one, & the lever-action is now in my closet, waiting for hunting season.

It worked perfectly fine for LE work & I wouldn't have a problem using it again in the future if needed.

 

[Rifleman 173]

About the police using lever action rifles. If you google the name John Bowman you will find that he was a firearms instructor for many years at the Police Training Institute. The Police Training Institute, aka PTI, is a part of the University of Illinois at Champaign - Urbana. John was also a firearms instructor for Jeff Cooper for many, many years. Cooper and Bowman experimented with use of lever action rifles for hunting and tactical purposes. They both looked for ways to make any firearm more usable or practical for honest people, military personnel and police officers. Bowman would also work, part-time, for a small town police agency to keep himself current in law enforcement techniques. One of the things that Bowman found out was that certain lever action rifles CAN be used effectively by police officers.

Bowman practices what he teaches. His primary firearm is a 1911 pistol that shoots .45 caliber ammo. His primary shoulder mounted firearm is a .44 magnum lever action rifle. Based off of what Bowman was teaching policemen, some officers began to carry and experiment with lever action rifles. Some of the results that have surfaced have been interesting. Not a lot of policemen or police agencies are using lever action rifles but some are.

A lever action rifle is slimmer and more compact than an AR-15 rifle. It is also a lot more maneuverable in tight areas than most other rifles. Many years ago, the .44 magnum lever action was actually used by hunters and people to shoot and kill small bears so it is effective. They are easy to use. Easy to sight in with and fire. The ergonomics are really very good for use by most people to include left-handed people. A lever action rifle is pretty much an ambidextrous firearm.

A few years ago a sheriff in Arizona went to a trailer to look for and arrest a suspect wanted on a murder warrant. The sheriff took a lever action rifle with him that use .45 Long Colt ammunition. When the sheriff got to the front door of the trailer, he came under fire from the suspect. The sheriff returned fire and dropped the suspect. Before it was all over the sheriff had shot 4 bad guys, killed 3 of them and wounded 1 of them. So that sheriff proved that a lever action rifle can be very effective in some tactical situations. So when information on that shooting situation made the rounds in law enforcement circles, officers began to take a more serious look at the lever action rifle in the large calibers and the more effective hunting calibers. So don't be surprised to see the occasional policeman showing up at a call with a lever action rifle of some sort.

Right now, the calibers of choice among policemen carrying lever action rifles are pretty much the .357 magnum, the .44 magnum, the .45 Long Colt and the ol' faithful 30-30 lever action rifles. Some of the guys are using scopes and red dots on their rifles and some are just keeping their rifles clean and compact. How the rifle is used and equipped is up to the individual officer.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

It is, as it always has been, more a matter of the man than the gun. Work on you 'til you can't improve any more. Then it will be time to worry about the gun you use.

I'm going to have to disagree with you. A semi-auto will allow you to shoot faster than a lever action. Why handicap yourself.

It's similiar to how I can shoot better with a target rifle than a sporter rifle. I can't outshoot either, but the target rifle is designed to be easier to shoot better.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

Lets say that you have the latest, greatest rigged out AR as your HD weapon and Heaven forbid that one night you are forced to use it to defend your family. There are LOTS of locales in this country these days where a sniveling prosecutor or plaintiffs attorney could gin up lots of hatred and resentment with a jury based solely on the type of weapon you used to defend yourself.

Here's one. It uses AR mags, but I wouldn't use it for home defense because it's a target rifle, and will probably be unreliable.

It certainly would be better than this.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

I think where it could be better than a semi-auto is where you can't carry loaded magazines, even seperately from the firearm. In that case, it would be quicker to get ready to fire.

 

[eye5600]

I'm going to have to disagree with you. A semi-auto will allow you to shoot faster than a lever action. Why handicap yourself.

I wonder. The internet's supply of traffic-stop-gone-wrong videos includes a lot where the officer does a spray-and-pray. The advantage goes to the guy who aims before he shoots.

As an LEO, there was a time, that our wonderful City Counsel wouldn't allow us to carry the "evil black rifles" in our patrol cars, because they didn't want their "Mayberry PD" looking too military to the locals.

Now available in camo and designer colors. Maybe the law enforcement industry should come up with some standard, recognizable alternative to black. Same theory as the Coast Guard putting diagonal slashes on the bows of all their boats.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

The advantage goes to the guy who aims before he shoots.

I didn't say don't aim.

A semi-auto will allow you to shoot faster, aimed or not.

 

[geologist]

In Canada, most AR stle rifles are "restricted" meaning that they can only be brought and used at registered shooting ranges.

Here's my non-restricted 1895GS in 45-70. The nice thing about a 45-70 is that with it's penetration there is very little "cover" for the BG's.

 

[VictorySong]

It won't give your family cover either. Looks sweet but I would worry about Over penetration in home defence more than anything.

 

[TimboKhan]

but I would worry about Over penetration in home defence more than anything

Not me. Everything penetrates, and in the end, I want the advantage over the criminal.

 

[ECVMatt]

To each his own....

But I would rather have my 6 lb. 32" 336 that cost me about 275 bucks to set up than a 10-12 lb. 42" .223 that cost 2,000 bucks with no sights.

That seems pretty silly to me...

But again, to each his own...

Matt

 

[JShirley]

ECVMatt,

What is silly is posting a dedicated target/varmint gun as though it's a typical defensive setup AR rifle.

Why not compare it to a TYPICAL 16" barrel AR-15 style carbine? Let me help:


Bushmaster 16" Heavy Bbl. A2
Caliber: 5.56mm or .223 Rem.
Operation Gas Operated
Magazine Capacity: 30 Rounds (accepts all M16 / AR15 type)
Overall Length: 36.25” [100.3 cm]
Barrel Length: 16” [40.6 cm]
Rifling: 1 turn in 9” [22.8 cm]
R.H. Twist / 6 grooves & lands
Weight w/o magazine (A2): 6.93 lbs. [3.14 kg]

Incidentally, can your 336 nail prairie dogs at 400 meters? Just curious, since you seem to prefer it to a varmint gun.

John