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How are we looking for the long-term with the younger generations?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by NineseveN, Aug 25, 2006.

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  1. NineseveN

    NineseveN member

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    I was thinking about something earlier today and thought I’d solicit some comments from the fine folks here at THR. We all discuss the current situation in regards to the RKBA and our civil liberties to great lengths, but I don’t see a whole lot of discussion or analysis on what the long-term means for us in regards to the next few generations coming into power and taking over.

    We’re in a situation right now because of bad politics and socialist agendas seeping into our government when it comes to personal liberties and the RKBA, and most of this has come from law makers that are from a certain set of generations, generations that, in some ways, are a lot more disciplinarian and a lot more reserved when it comes to what is socially deemed taboo. I’d argue that in many ways, guns are almost taboo due to the poor media coverage and the social stigma of every gun owner being a wacko-survivalist-guerilla-militia shoot up a schoolyard type. Now, a lot of that is a byproduct of some high-profile events in the 80’s and 90’s (and a few events in the early years of the so-called ‘new millennium’), but, at some point, the current generations have to pass on and a newer, younger generation will take over. At some point, that’s going to be the first of the generations that right now are more or less rooted into giving the middle finger to authority and anyone trying to tell them how to live their lives. The younger generations are more expressive in their choices to embrace certain taboo subjects like same-sex relationships, drug use, banned musical content, graphic films and video games (often featuring gunplay as a centerpiece), pornography etc…

    What happens when those and subsequently more expressive generations take the reigns? I know that socialism and authoritarianism is very strong right now and only gaining in power due to the current political climate and some legislative actions that have infringed on just about every freedom we have in this country, but the thing is, I don’t know that the powers that be are doing a good enough job at indoctrinating the folks from 15-30 in order to preserve the balance of power that they’re worked very hard over the last 15-20 years to build.

    I understand that by any standards throughout history, the younger generations are seen as ‘too wild’ or lacking discipline, but if we go back to the Elvis Presley or the Beatles and what affect that had on the younger generation, that kind of music went from taboo and banned content to being mainstream, and now, some many years later, we have things like gangster rap and hardcore heavy metal. When those Elvis or Beatles kids grew up, they demanded their favorite music to be played in the mainstream radio markets, it’s simple economics, give them what they want and they’ll buy it. Folks from those generations also bought radio stations or worked in the industry, which streamlined the move from taboo and provocative to mainstream for more provocative and expressive types of music. Now, this happens in the music and radio industry constantly. The Metallica heads from the 80’s now work at Rock stations, or own them, or are just listeners with wallets and the current crop of hardcore music is simply an evolution of the things Metallica and others like them brought to the table, which was en extension of the things that Black Sabbath and Cream brought to the market, which was an extension of what the Rollin Stones brought to the market, which was an extension of what The Beatles or Elvis brought to the market; not the music per-se, but the mainstream idea of freedom of that form of expression in music, no matter how provocative it was. I know this is a simplified timeline, and we need not correct it to add in all of the bands and artists that made the tiny steps between those that I mentioned, the existence of the mechanism is important, and it is one that cannot really be argued.

    Ultimately, it was freedom of choice and freedom of expression that brought those kinds of social changes about, and the strength of those freedoms came about because some rowdy youngsters decided to say, to hell with authority and do whatever it was that they wanted to.

    Now, this is a lot more difficult to track in politics, because we don’t see too many 25-year old politicians and no 25-year old presidents, so perhaps by the time those generations make it into politics, they’ve lost the energy to fight like they did when they were younger.

    Personally, I think the key is those generations that right now are under 30-years old, I think the more we get them into shooting sports and firearms, the better off we’ll be, at least, 10-15 years down the line. It doesn’t have to be hunting, which was a huge focus for RKBA type groups in the past, it could (and should) be IDPA, IHMSA, 3-gun, or whatever other exciting shooting sport comes around in the next 5 years. It doesn’t need to be through the news media, it can be through movies, video games, whatever. The seeds are there, these folks already have a distaste for the powers that be and constrictions on their freedoms, it’s now a race to see whether the socialists can indoctrinate them or we can keep their minds open and focused on individual liberty instead of ‘the greater common good’.

    The hard part is that the older generations that have all kinds of wisdom and experience to impart on these younger folks, but, well, they don’t understand their target audience, and they often don’t approve of them either. Even in shooting circles, in fact, often especially in shooting circles, I see the old-timers sneer at the kid with the Remington 700 climbing out of his Mustang with Eminem blasting away and then ultimately deciding not to get involved with that kid because he’s different or because the old-timer doesn’t approve of the music, the dress, or the lime green thong line peeking out from the butt-side of his girlfriend’s jeans. If the old-timer doesn’t ignore them, often he attempts to impart his knowledge on them, but also tries and change the way the kid dresses, what he listens to, what he wears or whom he associates with. This is counterproductive because the kid is just going to tune the old-timer out and lump him in with everyone else that won’t let the kid live his live the way he wants to…they won’t let him be free to act and express himself any way he sees fit so long on no one is injured or suffers damages…which is the antithesis of the freedom we all preach around here when it comes to civil liberties and the right to keep and bear arms. We’re losing a valuable opportunity there out of ignorance. You can’t try to instill freedom and what civil liberties mean in someone through firearms and the RKBA while trying to control them into your mold of what should be socially acceptable, it doesn’t work, it’s like oil and water. I say, give them as much knowledge as they can handle, but let them live...the same way you wanted it to be when your elders were scolding you for the Elvis EP’s hidden in your bedroom, or those front row Beatles tickets you snuck out to enjoy, or the Black Sabbath 8-tracks you hid at a friend’s house…


    I don’t know, my thought process on this is not very well developed right now (as you can probably tell), but does anyone have any thoughts on the issue? It think it might be an interesting discussion.
     
  2. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

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    http://www.amconmag.com/2004_12_06/cover.html

    Politically incorrect, BTW, but not gratuitously so.

    It just tells the naked truth about the author's opinion: urban white liberals favor gun control because they think it will disarm the minorities they secretly fear and despise. Suburban, exurban and rural families oppose it because they have moved away from city problems, and figure that gun control will only disarm THEM.

    It's kind of a scary perspective, but I think it's worth discussing.
     
  3. Phil DeGraves

    Phil DeGraves Member

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    The Silver Lining

    On the other hand, since the libs have won the abortion war, take a look at the people that get abortions. It isn't the conservatives. So in twenty years or so, the libs won't have any more new voters because they will have eliminated their offspring.
     
  4. Soybomb

    Soybomb Member

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    Youth are really the same as they've ever been on the whole. Urban people are less likely to be taken out shooting and thus they're more likely to base their gun beliefs off main stream media and movies. Take a kid shooting and thats the biggest part of the battle. I grew up living in a rural area and the only positive expose I had to guns was hunters which was completely noninteresting. A trip to the range would done me good then.

    I can't believe it was only 3 posts until someone had to turn it into an abortion debate.
     
  5. MatthewVanitas

    MatthewVanitas Member

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    I'm putting this post separate from my actual post, assuming that both my post and Mr DeGraves' will be deleted:

    Here's a few numbers: http://www.wprc.org/23.78.0.0.1.0.phtml

    42% of those having abortions identify themselves as Protestant, and most already have at least one child. 27% identify themselves as Catholics.

    Not "atheist socialist radical feminist", but "Protestant mother" is the more common abortion demographic.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2006
  6. MatthewVanitas

    MatthewVanitas Member

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    (moving on)

    If you want the new generation to be comfortable with guns, you HAVE TO TAKE THEM SHOOTING!

    Check out the link in my sig: in the six weeks that we ran classes at the UT campus range, we had about 200 visitors come in and take a live-fire gun safety class. All but one or two had a great time, and most of them had heard about our range by word of mouth. We have several THR members running the range, and it's been rewarding.

    Take your nieces, grandkids, neighbor and his kids, the intern with the nose piercing at the office: the majority of people in this country will at least try shooting out if the idea is pitched to them in an inviting and unintimidating way, and 95% of them will have a great time doing it.

    [​IMG]

    -MV
     
  7. Low-Sci

    Low-Sci Member

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    I'm of the opinion that my generation is much more likely than most to pick up the RKBA cause, for a number of reasons.

    First, many of them are of the opinion that the government has become a right wing theocracy/ dictatorship that is stripping citizens of their rights. These particular people will likely champion RKBA because they believe very firmly that they will need to protect themselves from the government they will find themselves under in the future.

    Another reason is video games. While yes, some video games glorify random violence and criminal activity, most involving guns do not. Most of them are war games, counter-terrorist games, or police games where more firepower is a good thing and kids can see that first hand, in a roundabout sort of way. Good guys + right weapons = victory. Guns are generally portrayed gratuitously in videogames, but again not always. And the important side of this is that people my age may well understand that guns are absolutely an integral part of keeping a free society safe, moreso than our parents do.

    I also think people my age are much more likely to look at facts than politicians are, because the internet lets us cut through BS much faster than any generation before us could. Mainstream media lies, everyone knows they're just out to sell papers. But the blogosphere is much more trustworthy and more informative. Its a huge advantage to be able to see statistics and records and stories for yourself rather than have them dictated to you by a talking head (which, by the way, are losing ground by the second in terms of integrity.) And we're the first generation to really enjoy fully-capable internet for the majority of our lives. DARPA finally got something very right.

    I actually think the future looks pretty good for RKBA. Especially because most of my generation is going to outlive Sarah Brady by quite a bit.
     
  8. NineseveN

    NineseveN member

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    In hindsight, this might have been better off in Legal and Political. Mods, please move if needed, not delete if at all possible.
     
  9. knoxx45

    knoxx45 Member

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    may i interject?

    As some one who is probably younger than most people here, but older than the generation in question, I would like to chime in on this one. First and for-most, what MatthewVanitas said is 100% correct. If you want people to understand our rights/ sport/ hobby you have to take them out and show them a good time in a safe manner. That said, most of my friends have brothers or sisters between the age of 13 and 25. Most of them think on complete opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to guns. On one side you have the brainwashed knee-jerk “guns are bad, there only good for killing people”. The other group is of the “WOW, a gun…. Cool can I see it… man I want to shoot something”. Keep in mind that most of these kids have either never seen or fired a real gun before, and the most common comment that I hear from both sides once they actually do go shooting is: “that was nothing like I thought it was going to be”. People in general have these wild ideas in their heads, then add youth to the mix and it really gets exaggerated.
     
  10. Wes Janson

    Wes Janson Member

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    Talking purely large-scale social trends:

    As a young adult, I see not a trend towards gun control, but rather a trend away from the RKBA, which ultimately leads to the same end. While that link had some really great perspectives, I think it missed one of the important factors in the gun control issue: people fear what they don't know, and ergo people in the city are less likely to recieve positive exposure to firearms. The nature of gun range construction also makes it unconducive to new shooters in cities. Not to say that indoor ranges are bad, but in general I suspect most new shooters would prefer outdoor ranges, for a variety of reasons (noise, ventilation, lighting, percieved image, etc). The simple fact is, to make a difference we need to be bringing thousands, or tens of thousands of new shooters to the range each week. In some places this is being done, but in many I suspect it is not. We're fighting a war of public perception, and the only truly effective tool is introducing people first-hand. It's tremendously slow, inefficient, and expensive, but it's the best option. And, I suspect, that discrepancy between the effort needed to swing a person to one side or another, is why we're going to lose ground into the foreseeable future (25 years+).
     
  11. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

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    If you read the article I linked, though, people in cities are not reproducing. And their politics tend to change if they move out of the city and reproduce.
     
  12. skeeter1

    skeeter1 Member

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    .

    I take exception to that. I'm a suburban white male liberal, but in no way do I favor gun control. A good friend of mine is currently stationed in Baghdad with the US Army. While my liberal side supports better health-care coverage, in no way do I support gun control. I don't know where the notion came from that if you're a liberal that you must be anti-gun. That's just not true.
     
  13. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

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    skeeter1, there's no MUST about it. Statistics are about trends, bell curves, etc.

    I happen to hold some disparate views myself, when viewed through the lens of the traditional Liberal/Conservative dichotomy.

    The fact is that gun control and gun bans have a lot more support among white urban liberals than among suburban, exurban and rural voters.

    See the link I posted.
     
  14. American By Blood

    American By Blood Member

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    I read the linked article from Mr. Sailer when it was first published in AmCon. Excellent stuff. As for it being un-PC, well... that's what Sailer does best.

    My take on the younger generations is that they will neither support nor oppose gun control. They will instead require it. In spite of the best efforts of some parents at instilling real values into their children, kids today are growing up in a larger environment where God is dead and all things are permitted. The generations long war that the culture industry has waged on the permanent things has created a world with no norms and standards where youngsters are given no structure and thus grow into decadent adults who hate the very idea of order and do not know how to create it in their own lives. My generation (I'm 27) barely cares about politics and has little truck with personal responsibility. We can hardly be bothered to exercise our Constitutional rights, let alone be trusted to do so wisely. Our children will be that much worse--cultureless, irresponsible, rootless, deracinated, 6,000,000 channel HDTV-molded consumers who really should not be trusted with firearms or any other things of consequence. People unfit to rule themselves must be ruled and ruled mercilessly. The future of mass society is grim.

    The only real hope I have is that mainstream society will grow so bloated and chaotic that those who choose to geographically and socially secede will be able to do so with little fear of the system being able to muster the effort required to prevent them from doing so.
     
  15. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    Last year on Labor Day I was RSO for a youth shoot that was sponsored by a few businessmen who are shooters. The city crew built a temporary berm at the reservior and one of the sponsors got some nice prizes donated from sporting goods stores and gun shops in the region.

    From 9am until noon I ran 68 kids ranging in age from 6 to 16 through a 50 ft course of fire where they were to shoot the smallest 5 round group. There were classes for both iron sights and optics. I was surprised at the turnout we had.

    There still is a lot of interest out there. I would suggest that we have to do more of this sort of thing. I think that clubs and ranges need to have open houses and youth programs to get people interested in the sport.

    We had some people drive 50 miles to shoot that day, so I know there is an interest.

    Jeff
     
  16. Pafrmu

    Pafrmu Member

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    Too bad they are importing anti-gunnies from other countries now.
     
  17. jamz

    jamz Member

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    I don't know any younger people who don't like guns, hunting, or shooting.
     
  18. dk-corriveau

    dk-corriveau Member

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    It has been said before, but teach kids to shoot and the importance of guns. :what:

    My recommendation is to get involved with scouting, both Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts. Get those kids out shooting! I know that these organizations attract children that are already inclinded to shoot, but it doesn't hurt.
     
  19. coyote_jr

    coyote_jr member

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    I do my part by taking city kids shooting. They love it.
     
  20. MDMadrid

    MDMadrid Member

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    I am in just that age that the first thread is talking about, I have some thoughts. First, (as others have pointed out) if you have never been exposed to guns the natural tendency is to fear them. (Especially with the media hype) My dad got me involved in guns from the time I could barely hold one up. However, my wife was never exposed to them and for a long time feared them until I could get her training. Now she likes to shoot them and is even considering getting her concealed carry permit. We as parents MUST take it upon ourselves to teach our children! If you don’t have children…grab some friend’s kids and teach them.
    In my own experience my dad mostly taught me rifles and we never shot too many hand guns. Now that I am out on my own I decided to get in carrying and shooting hand guns. I walked into a gun shop and asked to look at some guns, the guys behind the counter expected me to be and expert, when I asked for some help they gave me a look like “if you don’t already know about hand guns then what are you doing in this store?” They made me feel a little uncomfortable, and did seem to want to help me they way I wanted help. That kind of attitude scares people off. Gun ownership is not an exclusive club; we should be trying to get everyone educated as we can. If someone doesn’t know…teach them!!
    NineseveN is absolutely correct!! If we don’t teach our ways to the younger generation, then it will be lost! You can bet the liberals are teaching as many youngsters as they can!! WE MUST FIGHT IT!!
     
  21. MatthewVanitas

    MatthewVanitas Member

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    @ Pafrmu:

    Really? Clue me in here.

    Mexicans... like guns.
    Vietnamese... like guns.
    Indians... like guns.
    Slavs... like guns.
    Filipinos... really, really like guns.

    Is there some great influx of an immigrant group that likes guns less than your average American? I'm sure you can find some immigrants here and there that don't like guns, but percentage-wise I'd say their more pro-gun than current Americans. Dig the picture from our campus range above: not exactly monochrome, is it?

    And if some of them aren't pro-gun, what are you doing to fix that? Have you ever taken an immigrant neighbor or coworker out to shoot?

    -MV
     
  22. NineseveN

    NineseveN member

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    That goes for the people manning the counters in gun shops, to folks on forums online, to each of the different shooting disciplines and the various age and social groups as well. That's the hard part because the attitudes that are counterproductive to our cause here are the products of years and years of isolationism in addittion to the usual barriers based on folks interacting or failing to interact with different types of people.
     
  23. SeanSw

    SeanSw Member

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    I don't like to identify myself on what could be an anonymous forum, but speaking as an older member of the "next generation" what we have is an image problem and a media bias. No time in history has been as prevalent in assaulting formative minds with anti-gun propoganda. This is made all the more ironic by the increased popularities of violent games and movies, which provide plenty of negative associations to be used against us in a media backlash. People coming of age (and even my friends who are beyond voting age) rarely have any interest in politics. They are at a stage of life where the politics of firearms are not important to them because they don't feel directly affected by the results of elections and regulations, and they'll probably vote (or not vote) the same way they were raised to.

    I was raised to be anti-gun, and I turned out okay. Joining a club and purchasing firearms was difficult without the personal connections or experience but the initial impressions I took from the older crowd has unanimously been positive and strongly encouraging. I really felt that the older shooters who took the time to introduce themself and encourage me knew that a generation gap could be headed to the voting booths. It's touching to know that some of the older generations feel strong enough about their beliefs to protect our rights for all of us, not just for themselves.

    What needs to be done is seperate guns from hunting,comical violence, entertainment, and most importantly authority. Guns viewed in that context are self limiting. Associating guns with hunting doesn't show the many enjoyable shooting sports also available (and more approachable for animal rights activists). If people associate firearms with the police and other government agents they'll learn distrust guns out of fear mongering. Only the government needs guns so anyone else who has them is up to no good. Game and movie violence, in my opinion, will gain more advocates from the younger generation. I'll admit that growing up playing Doom made me think "I GOTTA get one of these someday!". With all the tacticool shooter games out there I think firearms are gaining a cool and serious image that will do more good than bad for the future of gun rights.

    Power is in numbers. The more people who own guns and use them, for whatever (legal) purpose, the better.
     
  24. hankdatank1362

    hankdatank1362 Member

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    I'm 22 years old (barely). The problem with my peers is not that they are afraid of guns; on the contrary, most males my age are fascinated with them. Unfortunately, many are ignorant about them. I do what I can to educate them about safe handling and how to shoot effetively, etc. However, I find it hard to impress upon them the importance of the RKBA. I was married when I was 19, and a father when I was 20. I know what it's like to feel the need to protect your family, being the "man of the house" (sorry about the cliche, but it's true). It's just hard to get that kind of point across to most people my age because they have no family of their own to defend. That, plus it takes a certain amount of intelligence to realize what it may take to defend the freedoms of this great nation, and that some of the most horrific atrocities this world has ever seen happened barely more than half a century ago, and that it could easily happen again... any time, any place. Fortunately, some of my closest friends who I have managed to bring over to our side have joined me in bi-weekly training and practicing responsible arms handling. Now, we are always looking to add responsible friends to join out little clique, in the hope that the future may turn out better for all of us.
     
  25. hub

    hub Member

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    well i think it all starts with guidience. ive never took anyone shooting that didnt have a good time. most anti guns see them only as a tool for means to kill. criminals, gangbangers, crazys, militias people, and bambi killers. i guess if i grew up with parents that have that view i might think the same but i didn't. i started out rabbit and squirrel hunting with my dad and his friends with a crappy lever bb gun when i was about four or five. even though i didnt kill anything and i would just scare them out of the bush so i thought, i was still hunting with my dad and that was all that mattered because he was my hero and thats who i wanted to be. then i got a .410, then a .22 and so on and so on. turkey shoots with grandpas old browning, american legion .22 turkey shoots with bird shot. everytime i was going to go hunting i could never sleep the night before, like a kid on christmas eve. i loved it, i loved hunting, i loved shooting, i loved spending time with my dad and my grandpa hunting. i went fishing and camping and everything with them and nothing got me excited like hunting. i learned through them that safety is the top priority, while being a kid that is hard but it was installed into my brain through talks, training, and safety briefs. i learned where , when and how to shoot, what to shoot, what not to shoot and what would happen if i did what i was told not too.(chewing from grandpa and azzwhoppin from dad. gradually i started shooting trap and skeet with my dad who shot every weekend for years and i got better all the time. by 15 i could hang with anyone at the club then i started on high power rifles. i learned breathing control, sight picture, bone on muscle structure, and range estimation. then went on to spoting, range estimation, bullet trajectory, and windage. i had never even shot a pistol until i was in the marines. needless to say i cleaned up at the range pretty good. i was in the top ten of my company and one of the best every year. so now that im out ive spent most of my time with pistols, since thats my weakest point. ive got a kimber 1911, sig trailside.22, glock 23, and a keltec p11. i've taught many people how to shoot. in the marines all the women marines's went to the range with with me. all passed and most sharpshooter or expert. all of my sister's friends from collage i took shooting many who had never seen a gun before much less shoot one. they was all nervous but after proper instruction and a few rounds they was all having a blast. i took my sister's friends from boston who had never held a gun before put a good group on a target the first day with a 1911 handgun and when he called home to mom to tell her she almost almost flipped because he was shooting a GUN. he learned better but still to his mom it was a WOMD. same day i had three 22 year old girls hitting bulls at 200yrds with a 30'06, and a .223 every time. they shot everything we had, .22 .32acp. .380, 9mm, 357mag, 45acp, .223, 30'06, 20 ga 12 ga and even 7mm mag. all of them said it was the best time they have had in a long time and it changed thier view on hunting and gun ownership. so in the end i think its up to everyone who has experience to take friends, family, even friends of friends shooting and show the responsible side of the argument. i think saftey is always #1, everyone should know that and when anyone breaks a rule it should be a big deal. yell, scream, make them embarassed, you flaged me mother fer make them umcomfortable, thats the point. then explain what went wrong and how not to do it again. well thats how i learned, the hard way, azzwhppin and all, but really its up to us to keep it alive, i like video games and movies but thats not real life, i suggest all dads, uncles, and grandpa's step up and teach these young people what it's all about. and also be considerate, when i was growning up (im 28 now) my dad burned me up about my idiot box (nintendo) rap, and rock music. i really enjoyed it and grew up even though i still like my ps2 and cant wait to get a ps3. attitudes like that just turn us away and does absolutely no good. i repeat no good. you may not understand same as my dad but reaming about how dumb it is does not help (just push away). the best is to just say we are going shooting today come on lets go, no you dont need your cell phone, mp3, or your psp, we are leaving now, lets go! its not hard to get into it, lightweights start with a .22 and your hard heads get a sks or simular and rip off a 10rd clipp. soon they will want to shoot better. and will listen! oh grandpa u was in ww2, dad was in veitnam, uncle, brother was in iraq. they must know whats really going on. teach me!
     
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