how did the myth of the .45 acp come about?

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walteray said:
have you ever tried to shove somebody without bracing yourself its easy to push someone over when they are standing with their feet shoulders width apart adjacent to each other and you put one foot infront of the other and lean your weight to keep you falling from back. right?



And don't you also brace yourself and take a stance when firing a gun???


Even so you're applying enough energy to knock someone down, yet you yourself aren't being knocked down.


The physicists amongst us are saying that if you knock someone down with a gunshot it will knock you down as well.

Perhaps they never heard of taking a proper stance and bracing yourself for the impact.



Of course let's also not forget that humans only stand on two long legs and have a relatively high center of gravity and really aren't that difficult to knock over.



:D
 
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Actually the myth that is being manufactured is that the 9MM is just as powerful as a .45 ACP. It's being served warm all over the internet and folks are gobbling it up. Why? Because people don't want to pay for .45 ACP and can get 9MM cheap, so they need to believe the 9MM is at least the equal of the .45. (Aw heck, it's way way better!)
Thirty years ago few would have even suggested such a thing.
 
Anyway, I never particularly thought of the Colt Model of 1911, and it's .45 ACP Cartridge as having any particular 'Myth' associated with them, even if they do.

Rather, I took it that the Arm and it's Cartridge enjoyed the high esteem and good reputation they had earned, among Soldiers of all sides of those conflicts in which it was used, as well as among practical men and women of whatever walk of life, who had occasion to become familiar and practiced with them.

The .45 calibers (mainly .45 Colt and .45 ACP) were the most powerful for handguns at a time when allegedly their advantage in power over relatively weak calibers such as .38 Long Colt was needed, and they were deemed to have performed admirably. With regard to ammunition, the number "45" has taken on a mythic quality since then, but there's really nothing magical about it. If the problem was really penetrating primitive forms of body armor, then had a more powerful .38 caliber been adopted by the US Army, they would never have gone back to .45s. 9mm Parabellum also existed at the time and probably would have gotten the job done just about as well in a purely objective sense, but it was smaller in diameter, and bigger was considered better after the alleged failure of .38 Long Colt.

Or perhaps all of these calibers--including the .45s--performed about the same, which is to say poorly like all service handgun calibers in comparison to rifles, but people would only be satisfied that they were doing the best they could as long as the bullets were of the largest size. That's just an aspect of human nature. If somebody who drank the .45 Kool-Aid (and I used to be one of them), so to speak, shot an enemy soldier six times with a .45 before he went down, he'd say that the relentless enemy fought like demons, and if he shot an enemy soldier six times with a 9mm before he went down, he'd say that this stupid, puny round is ineffective against weak, skinny little (fill in the blank), and that we need to go back to the larger caliber immediately (so that the enemy can go back to fighting like demons when they absorb several pistol rounds, undoubtedly ;)).

A .460 for humans ? Now you're being silly.:rolleyes:

Humans have taken worse in combat and survived--even kept shooting back sometimes.

Well then how is it I can shove somebody and knock them down without knocking myself down too???

It's easy to explain. If you move forward at all (even just a little) in order to gain enough momentum to knock a stable person down, then you must have gained far more momentum than a .45 ACP bullet could have ever gained from being shot out of a gun. Keep in mind how much more massive you are than a bullet.

The physicists amongst us are saying that if you knock someone down with a gunshot it will knock you down as well.

The implication is that the person being shot cannot resist being knocked down. Obviously if they are barely stable and don't resist, then maybe even a .22 LR bullet could knock them down, but if they try to remain standing, like most people do at all times while they're standing, then any person of any size can EASILY resist the momentum of a .45 ACP bullet, even if they didn't know that one was going to hit them.

Perhaps they never heard of taking a proper stance and bracing yourself for the impact.

Shooters brace themselves to become stable gun platforms for precise aiming, but no bracing or preparation is needed whatsoever merely to resist the puny impact of a .45 ACP bullet. Some people who are aware that they have been shot may jump backward and fall down, but this is a psychological reaction. A person standing still would barely notice the push itself, and certainly a person who is running toward the shooter, charging him for example, would not be pushed back by any noticeable amount at all, much less get knocked off his feet. A bullet that could accomplish the latter would indeed knock the shooter down, as well (if he's standing).

Of course let's also not forget that humans only stand on two long legs and have a relatively high center of gravity and really aren't that difficult to knock over.

They can be pretty easy to knock over for other humans of sufficient mass, but not for little bullets, even though they're flying at hundreds of feet per second.

Actually the myth that is being manufactured is that the 9MM is just as powerful as a .45 ACP.

9mm is definitely not as powerful or as effective per round, although it does come fairly close in both respects and has some advantages of its own that, depending on individual preferences, may or may not make it a better caliber overall.

It's being served warm all over the internet and folks are gobbling it up. Why? Because people don't want to pay for .45 ACP and can get 9MM cheap, so they need to believe the 9MM is at least the equal of the .45. (Aw heck, it's way way better!)

9mm is relatively cheap because so much of it is being manufactured, and has been for decades. If popularity means anything concerning caliber, then 9mm has been at least as successful internationally as .45 ACP has been stateside. The main reason that it is so popular with law enforcement, even in the US, is high capacity, among its other traits. Poking a larger but still rather small hole must make some difference, but the main point is always where you poke the hole, for which the difference in size makes little difference in probability, and 9mm is an excellent penetrator, too (even better than .45 ACP in some media), unlike .45 ACP's original competition in the US.

As for .45 ACP's higher cost, in addition to having to use more material, manufacturers will charge whatever the market will bear, and there are plenty of people who are willing to pay more for .45 ACP's perceived per-round performance advantage (or even its smaller real one--I wouldn't fault anybody for this, I just want the truth as I see it to be known).

Thirty years ago few would have even suggested such a thing.

I guess most people didn't know better. I didn't, either, at one point, but now I do. :D I'm not saying that 9mm is better than .45 ACP in every way, and certainly not per round by the numbers, but they're pretty even in the grand scheme of things. That .45 ACP is significantly better than any other service caliber, even per round, is just as much a myth as the original topic of this thread, its literal knockdown power.
 
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The myths probably exist for 2 main reasons:

1. Directors repeatedly telling special effects people: "NO, I want something more spectacular, bigger, more dramatic."

2. A generation of people who (probably thankfully) haven't killed a large number of people with handguns, and so don't know what really happens when a person is hit by a bullet. Even individual soldiers and police rarely, if ever, kill large numbers of people with their handguns during their careers.
 
When one is involved/witnessed an individual take center mass hit/hits with a 1911, M1carbine and M14 it leaves one with a life long impression. Its rather disturbing to realize that your DI at Parris Island didn’t know what they were talking about in regards to the 1911/45ACP as a man stopper.:what: It’s enough to shake your belief Jeff Cooper’s wisdom.:rolleyes:;)
 
Actually the myth that is being manufactured is that the 9MM is just as powerful as a .45 ACP. It's being served warm all over the internet and folks are gobbling it up. Why? Because people don't want to pay for .45 ACP and can get 9MM cheap, so they need to believe the 9MM is at least the equal of the .45. (Aw heck, it's way way better!)
Thirty years ago few would have even suggested such a thing.
Now that is an interesting thought; not only do they settle for less but they try to convince others less IS more Hmmmmm. you might want to add that maybe some of that is driven by the inability to handle shooting the .45acp?

Another thing is shooting a 145# man or 195# man may have different results, I'd venture a guess that the GI's of WWII were bigger and stronger than the enemy counterparts which could have led to the battlefield reports.
 
Hey this is fun! Can a .45 acp "knock a man down" just due to the physical force of getting hit? Well, let's do a comparison. A major league baseball weighs 5 oz. which is about 2,188 grains or nearly twelve times the weight of a 185 gr. .45 acp. Many major league pitchers can throw the ball 100 mph which is 147 fps or 14% (1/7) the speed of a 185 gr. Speer Gold Dot (1,050 fps mv).

Since momentum is simply mass*velocity, the baseball has 65% MORE momentum than the .45 acp bullet.

I've seen many ball players get hit with a fast ball and they don't get knocked down by the impact. They may hit the dirt to avoid the ball or fall over in pain, but they do not get knocked off their feet from the impact.

I carry a .45 acp because when I bought my new handgun I was limited to 10 rounds in the mag. I'll take 10 rounds of .45 acp over 10 rounds of 9mm.
 
Though, if someone got hit COM with a Bowling Ball travelling at 147 fps, I am pretty confident it would knock them down.

Parts of the US Military did try the Luger Pistol in the very early 1900s, and it was well thought of.

The Colt-Browning .38 Automatics, similarly.


As far as I understand it, part of what decided the matter, were the various Trails where the Pistols were subjected to various rigors, intentional chemical corrosion, mud, hardship of various sorts, for seeing about reliability under duress, combined with the influence of the desire underneath it all, to return to a .45 Caliber Arm.


A hundred years ago, or in the First World War as well, the majority of Soldiers on any side were much smaller physically than now. Quite a few would have been about average size for now, but, most were not.

If an average Soldier on any side was probably around 5' 4" and weighed 125 pounds, a .45 ACP Bullet had a certain ratio which it would no longer have now, when an average Soldier, or adversary, is much larger, thicker and heavier.

The M1911 in many cases, was about as far as most smaller size people could be expected to reasonably operate/handle. Bearing in mind, all instruction then was for one handed Shooting.

I am sure this was a consideration in the election of it's details, power, and size-weight-recoil-power and so on.

For the ratio to remain about the same, we should probably have moved onto a version of the M1911 at some point, which would fire a .50 Caliber Bullet weighing around 300 - 350 Grains, @ the same old lovable 800 FPS.
 
Let's see, a bowling ball at 147 fps? Okay a 16lb ball is 112,000 grains. Let's compare it to a 800 gr. .50bmg traveling at 2,895 fps. The ball weighs 140 times the weight of the bullet and is traveling 1/20 the speed of the bullet. Therefore, the bowling ball will have 7 times the momentum of the .50bmg at the muzzle.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that would knock you on your a**.
 
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