how did the myth of the .45 acp come about?
- Thread starter uspJ
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Flat out.... it's bigger thus leaving a bigger wound channel, thus the argument that it's better.
Philo_Beddoe
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People believe all kinds of silly things about guns.
I had a co-worker once tell me that a hit to the arm with a 45 acp will knock a man off his feet and was more effective then a 9mm round center mass.
Umm ok.
I had another co-worker try to tell me that 44 magnum out of a revolver was overkill for a white tail dear, as he then proceeded to tell me how he killed a doe with a 12 guage slug.
Um yeah.
I had a co-worker once tell me that a hit to the arm with a 45 acp will knock a man off his feet and was more effective then a 9mm round center mass.
Umm ok.
I had another co-worker try to tell me that 44 magnum out of a revolver was overkill for a white tail dear, as he then proceeded to tell me how he killed a doe with a 12 guage slug.
Um yeah.
The word "disingenuous" implies deliberate deception, by the way--feel free to disagree, but I don't assume that anybody is being deceptive here. I don't believe that the small difference in hole size will make a big difference in stopping people quickly, which depends primarily on what the bullets actually hit (aided by achieving sufficient penetration), along with other factors that are unrelated to bullet diameter.
I know that well and even said it myself, but the implication is that both .45 ACP and 9mm, for example, have enough energy or momentum rather (when combined with their sectional densities) to penetrate sufficiently. I can't say that I blame people back then for doubting .38 Long Colt because even if it were just as effective on humans in the vast majority of cases, it shoots a lot lighter and can't do absolutely everything .45 Colt or .45 ACP can do (i.e. when encountering hard barriers), but 9mm is different because it is much closer in "power" to .45 ACP.
Both damage precious little tissue in terms of volume--you have to hit something vital in order to make a stop (psychological factors aside), even one that takes minutes to occur. Given the difference in bullet diameter, I would estimate that in FMJ form .45 ACP offers on the order of a several percent increase in the odds of at least nicking a vital structure, which while not nothing is not a big difference, either. This estimate is based on the typical size of vital structures in the body compared to the small absolute difference in the diameters of the calibers in question, and like I said, all of these bullets are small. .45 ACP's advantage in this regard is more significant with hollow-points, but this thread is in regard to how the legend was created, so FMJ is more relevant for historical reasons (or if you wish to discuss military considerations in general, obviously).
If I had only one shot, sure, I'd take the larger bullet, but the difference in one's odds of hitting something vital is small and there are other tradeoffs to consider. This is hardly the stuff of legends--myths such as literally knocking down Moros without hitting anything vital is the stuff of legends, but they are still myths.
Sure, and with the bias for "bigger is better" firmly established, one might be inclined to view such an incident as an example of amazing resilience on the part of the enemy; on the other hand, if a smaller caliber (even of similar basic potential) were involved, then one might be inclined to blame the ammunition instead and wish loudly for something larger (though still small compared to the human body). Over time, this disparity only grows, at least for some people. I used to drink that Kool-Aid until I learned more about wounding with handguns.
And while he usually doesn't shoot, when he does he shoots .22 Short because he can hit you in the eye every single time. In fact, he doesn't use a gun but blows the entire .22 Short cartridge through a soda straw with lethal force. Most of the time, however, he just points his finger and says "BANG!", and you'll be dead before you even hit the ground.
There's that, too.
If that was truly the case, then it is the truth behind the legend, that .45 Colt and .45 ACP are more penetrative than .38 Long Colt. I think that 9mm would have done just as well in such a scenario, and .40 S&W (if it could travel back in time) probably would have been the most effective overall by some miniscule margin. That said, I don't know exactly what to believe about that conflict.
On the contrary, by the numbers .45 ACP has a larger advantage, per round, over smaller calibers with modern JHP ammo. It's still not a major difference, to be sure, and hardly worthy of legend, but it's more than the tiny differences between the different FMJ rounds. In my opinion, most people have all of this backwards, and the reason is that they are comparing the bullets to one another in isolation, whereas I try to factor in the relevant characteristics of the target.
christcorp
Member
Some of you are mentioning larger bullet holes, hitting arteries, etc... That's not the traditional "MYTH" we're talking about. The traditional myth of the 45acp is it's "KNOCK DOWN POWER". I was simply stating basic physics. That is: In my previous example, one round (9mm) with more energy because of velocity, could more easily pass through the intended target. As such, NOT ALL OF THE POTENTIAL ENERGY will be absorbed by the target. Some will remain with the bullet when it passes through. With the much slower and heavier 45acp; (Traditionally the 230 grain); all things being equal, it has a much less chance of the bullet going through the intended target than the small/lighter bullet. Therefor, if the bullet doesn't exit the body, ALL remaining energy on the bullet WILL be transferred to the intended target. This is not up for debate or argument. It's a fact. It's basic physics.
So, in theory, the 45acp and it's much slower and heavier bullet WILL TRANSFER MORE ENERGY to it's target than most any other round. That's why the "Slow and Heavy" vs "Fast and Light" debate has been going on for years. We're not talking about actual stopping as in blood loss and tissue damage. If that's what we're talking about, I'll take the 357 magnum with a 125 or 158 grain hollow point, at 1300-1400 fps ANY DAY OF THE WEEK. It will cause more "damage" than anything else. The only reason most people have gone away from the 357 magnum, is because of their belief (probably through hollywood and others) that they NEED to have 10, 15, 18 rounds in their magazine. But again, we're not talking about this type of stopping power. We're talking about the 45acp myth of knock down power. And a slow 45acp, 230 grain, 850 fps, which DOES NOT exit the target; DOES have more energy transfer to the target, than a lighter faster bullet. Matter of fact, for a much lighter bullet, such as the 9mm, to have the same type of energy that the 230 grain 850 fps 45acp has; the 9mm would have to be traveling 300-400 fps faster. The extra speed, and the smaller mass, (Not just weight), means the 9mm would have a greater chance of exiting the target compared to the slower heavier mass 45acp. (All things being equal).
No way however does all this "Extra Energy Transfer" to the target of the 45acp compared to the 9mm or whatever, mean it's enough to knock them on their butt. Nope, ain't going to happen. As already said by many others; if there was enough energy to knock the target (human) down, the same energy would knock down the shooter. But, the extra energy in the target definitely could have advantages.
That's why I personally believe, that the 45acp 185 grain +P traveling at 1150fps and 543 ft/lbs is the BEST defensive round there is. At least that's my opinion. Granted, some times the 45acp isn't the most practical caliber to carry. But when I can, that's what I want. I get all the penetration I need. It's still slow enough to most likely not exit. If it does exit, there's very little energy remaining and not transferred to the body, so secondary damage is lessoned. It's the largest diameter hole which will cause more damage through blood loss. You get the ballistics of a standard 357 magnum, but with a heavier and larger diameter bullet.
So, in theory, the 45acp and it's much slower and heavier bullet WILL TRANSFER MORE ENERGY to it's target than most any other round. That's why the "Slow and Heavy" vs "Fast and Light" debate has been going on for years. We're not talking about actual stopping as in blood loss and tissue damage. If that's what we're talking about, I'll take the 357 magnum with a 125 or 158 grain hollow point, at 1300-1400 fps ANY DAY OF THE WEEK. It will cause more "damage" than anything else. The only reason most people have gone away from the 357 magnum, is because of their belief (probably through hollywood and others) that they NEED to have 10, 15, 18 rounds in their magazine. But again, we're not talking about this type of stopping power. We're talking about the 45acp myth of knock down power. And a slow 45acp, 230 grain, 850 fps, which DOES NOT exit the target; DOES have more energy transfer to the target, than a lighter faster bullet. Matter of fact, for a much lighter bullet, such as the 9mm, to have the same type of energy that the 230 grain 850 fps 45acp has; the 9mm would have to be traveling 300-400 fps faster. The extra speed, and the smaller mass, (Not just weight), means the 9mm would have a greater chance of exiting the target compared to the slower heavier mass 45acp. (All things being equal).
No way however does all this "Extra Energy Transfer" to the target of the 45acp compared to the 9mm or whatever, mean it's enough to knock them on their butt. Nope, ain't going to happen. As already said by many others; if there was enough energy to knock the target (human) down, the same energy would knock down the shooter. But, the extra energy in the target definitely could have advantages.
That's why I personally believe, that the 45acp 185 grain +P traveling at 1150fps and 543 ft/lbs is the BEST defensive round there is. At least that's my opinion. Granted, some times the 45acp isn't the most practical caliber to carry. But when I can, that's what I want. I get all the penetration I need. It's still slow enough to most likely not exit. If it does exit, there's very little energy remaining and not transferred to the body, so secondary damage is lessoned. It's the largest diameter hole which will cause more damage through blood loss. You get the ballistics of a standard 357 magnum, but with a heavier and larger diameter bullet.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
christcorp...Absolutely. Newton 3 would dictate that if the bullet is carrying enough momentum to knock a man off his feet, the shooter would be knocked off his feet when he pulled the trigger.
Physics just doesn't support the "Knockdown Power" theory.
Physics just doesn't support the "Knockdown Power" theory.
mljdeckard
Member
I absolutely agree. The idea is to cause as many cm3 of tissue damage as quickly as possible, thus increasing the likelihood of hitting something critical. A bigger bullet has a higher likelihood of doing this, but you do this the same way no matter what gun you are using.
I think that bullet energy MAY in SOME circumstances HELP to knock someone over, but you can't plan on this. Basically, under the same circumstances where a person is standing off-balance and is sucker-punched. If your weight is shifted the wrong way, and then you are hit by a bullet that hits a heavy bone, it MAY knock you over. This is why we shoot from a fighting stance, where you can't be knocked over with a nudge.
I think that bullet energy MAY in SOME circumstances HELP to knock someone over, but you can't plan on this. Basically, under the same circumstances where a person is standing off-balance and is sucker-punched. If your weight is shifted the wrong way, and then you are hit by a bullet that hits a heavy bone, it MAY knock you over. This is why we shoot from a fighting stance, where you can't be knocked over with a nudge.
DFW1911
Member
Because we won.
Otherwise it could be the Luger or the Walther P-38, or the Nambu.
I prefer the 1911.
Otherwise it could be the Luger or the Walther P-38, or the Nambu.
I prefer the 1911
.KodiakBeer
member
In war, both the training and the veterans ingrained physical response to a shot is to hit the ground and most likely away from the direction the shot came from. So, I imagine most people shot with a .45 immediately hit the ground and in a direction away from the shooter. Some of them died and some of them didn't, but to the shooter, especially in the re-telling, the .45 knocked him down.
Phantom Captain
Member
I love my 1911 and love the .45 ACP round too. But still my nightstand pistol is an 1873 repro SAA .45 Long Colt with my own hand loads of pure soft lead 250gr bullets in front of 30 grains 3f GOEX bp. I cast and load them and they always go bang. Lots of thump in those honeys and IMO and experience they hit harder than anything else. Second choice would surely be the .45 ACP before any of the other calibers I own though.
KodiakBeer
member
With similar slug characteristics (ball vs hollow-point, etc) the .45 is the probably best "stopper" until you start getting into some of the magnum loadings. The .357 is probably equal or better, the 10mm Mag is certainly better, but in your standard semi-auto rounds it's still probably the best choice. With the modern high velocity hollow-points available today the difference can't be very great, so I wouldn't worry about it much.
In the old days with just ball ammo, I think the wise man bought a .45.
In the old days with just ball ammo, I think the wise man bought a .45.
I've owned and shot most popular HD calibers. These days, I choose the .38 Special out of a S&W Model-10. Partly because I'm much more proficient at shooting since I bought my first gun in 1979. My weapon is just that, a weapon. If I need it, I will be vicious unmerciful and deadly. I'll never forget what unarmed victims of violent offenders look like after the slaughter. Caliber is secondary to me and the will to prevail is foremost.
BTW, loved the Last Man Standing link what a load of Hollywood bulloney.
BTW, loved the Last Man Standing link what a load of Hollywood bulloney.
christcorp said:
This is exactly what the 10mm does.
.357 magnum type ballistics in a pistol caliber.
The biggest problem with .45acp was that it lacked the necessary velocity to expand the early HPs. One reason for the legendary "stopping power" of the .357 magnum was it was one of the few calibers that could effectively use the early hollow-point designs.
HPs needed to reach a certain velocity to expand properly and the 230gr was just to big to reach a good velocity for HPs. Hence the lighter 185gr bullets to up the velocity.
Now 9mm had the velocity for expansion with light weight bullets but these light weight bullets generally had poor pentration with an expanded bullets. The 147gr bullets were like heavy .45 bullets just too slow for good expansion.
Enter the 10mm with 175gr loads going at 1200-1300 fps. Perfect velocity for the proper expansion of and heavy bullets that would penetrate deeply.
However this has became a far less critical factor as the technology of hollow-point bullets improved and nowadays we have big heavy .45 bullets that expand just fine and light 9mm's that get good penetration.
It's become all lot harder to define "best" since they all work well with HPs.
Still a .45acp with good HPs will always give you a higher volume than good 9mm HPs.
Same as with FMJ the bigger bullet is going to leave a bigger wound.
One question you can always ask yourself is would you rather be shot wth a 9mm or a .45........
......or a 10mm????
I just peed a little.
KodiakBeer
member
They tried to design a .45acp mortar, but the launch concussion always killed the mortar crew.
kopcicle
Member
I like others have used the .45 since birth (sic) . It works . Some of what we learned has rubbed off on the younger generation . The kid (long story I might get into another time) has made 5 trips into the sand box now , 2 as enlisted and 3 commissioned . On his third trip his command attempted to relieve him of his .45 side arm and ammunition as contraband . He resigned his commission on the spot and voluntarily surrendered himself to custody .
There is a back story to this . As an enlisted intelligence liaison between the Navy and the Marine Corps he was attached to a reconnaissance unit to gather information about improvements in fire support from Navy vessels . He , his lieutenant and a forward observation team came upon an ambush of a light convoy (no 240 or .50 cal) and assisted in repelling the ambush from one side of the column . From the other side of the road several un-friendlies crossed between vehicles , spotted the small detachment and opened fire . The kid took one of the first rounds square on the receiver of an AR rendering it inop . Without hesitation he drew his (even in '91 contraband) .45 and finished the fight . The 6 man patrol survived with two minor wounds and one AR KIA . The three un-friendlies succumbed to two-taps from the .45 and multiple other non fatal wounds from other (quite possibly erratically aimed) 5.56 NATO rounds .
He was not allowed to resign his commission for a number of reasons . First for having been previously decorated as an enlisted combatant and second because he had not at that time fulfilled his active commitment but most importantly because he spent all of a night in hack prior to being returned to duty with his .45 and all the ammunition the command was able to scrounge up on short notice .
Not only have we learned that the .45 works but so have those we have taught . I am alternately saddened by the straight legged , knee jerk , administrative f-wit that took it upon himself to declare the kid in violation of regulations and subject to UCMJ for possessing the .45 outside of TO&E and gratified that command structure saw fit and right to immediately correct this gross misapplication of military bureaucracy .
My grandfather first put 1911 Gov in my hands when I was 9 . Will (the kid's father) and I first took the kid shooting when he was 6 and he first handled and fired an ACE conversion at 9 .
The .45 is , as am I an anachronism from the previous century . I have no desire to go away from what works for me. Unfortunate that I have polluted so many young minds with the manual of arms that is the Colt 1911 , or is it ?
So the original question was where did the mythology of the 1911 originate ? It originated with it's effect on the Moro tribesmen , the effect on those that have used it in anger and defense for over a century , the effect it had on my grandfather , myself and the kid . It is a testament not only to the engineering genius of John Moses Browning but the willingness and vision of Colt to commit to a new idea . The result is for the ages . A tool that has survived more than 100 years , equal to the task intended .
That is no myth
~kop
There is a back story to this . As an enlisted intelligence liaison between the Navy and the Marine Corps he was attached to a reconnaissance unit to gather information about improvements in fire support from Navy vessels . He , his lieutenant and a forward observation team came upon an ambush of a light convoy (no 240 or .50 cal) and assisted in repelling the ambush from one side of the column . From the other side of the road several un-friendlies crossed between vehicles , spotted the small detachment and opened fire . The kid took one of the first rounds square on the receiver of an AR rendering it inop . Without hesitation he drew his (even in '91 contraband) .45 and finished the fight . The 6 man patrol survived with two minor wounds and one AR KIA . The three un-friendlies succumbed to two-taps from the .45 and multiple other non fatal wounds from other (quite possibly erratically aimed) 5.56 NATO rounds .
He was not allowed to resign his commission for a number of reasons . First for having been previously decorated as an enlisted combatant and second because he had not at that time fulfilled his active commitment but most importantly because he spent all of a night in hack prior to being returned to duty with his .45 and all the ammunition the command was able to scrounge up on short notice .
Not only have we learned that the .45 works but so have those we have taught . I am alternately saddened by the straight legged , knee jerk , administrative f-wit that took it upon himself to declare the kid in violation of regulations and subject to UCMJ for possessing the .45 outside of TO&E and gratified that command structure saw fit and right to immediately correct this gross misapplication of military bureaucracy .
My grandfather first put 1911 Gov in my hands when I was 9 . Will (the kid's father) and I first took the kid shooting when he was 6 and he first handled and fired an ACE conversion at 9 .
The .45 is , as am I an anachronism from the previous century . I have no desire to go away from what works for me. Unfortunate that I have polluted so many young minds with the manual of arms that is the Colt 1911 , or is it ?
So the original question was where did the mythology of the 1911 originate ? It originated with it's effect on the Moro tribesmen , the effect on those that have used it in anger and defense for over a century , the effect it had on my grandfather , myself and the kid . It is a testament not only to the engineering genius of John Moses Browning but the willingness and vision of Colt to commit to a new idea . The result is for the ages . A tool that has survived more than 100 years , equal to the task intended .
That is no myth
~kop
clem
Member
I can testify to casefull's report of .45 rounds bouncing off the skulls of deer or elk. My GF is a LEO in NH who has had hundreds of cases where she has had to shoot deer. She unloaded an entire clip from her .45 into one one time and the rounds all bounced. When faced with similar situations now, she reaches only for the shotgun.
xXxplosive
Member
A 9mm and .357 may expand but a .45 will never shrink........that's it.
I always thought it was Jeff Cooper and the ISPC crowd. These guys worshipped the M1911 and the 45 ACP bullet. They put both on a pedestal.
I remember they worshipped Hatcher’s stopping power formula. Which was a simple formula based on momentum with a shape factor. The assumption that Hatcher used was that momentum was equivalent to stopping power. I do not disagree that momentum is more closer correlated to stopping power than kinetic energy, but the formula was simplistic and favored rounds like the 45 ACP.
I remember they worshipped Hatcher’s stopping power formula. Which was a simple formula based on momentum with a shape factor. The assumption that Hatcher used was that momentum was equivalent to stopping power. I do not disagree that momentum is more closer correlated to stopping power than kinetic energy, but the formula was simplistic and favored rounds like the 45 ACP.
Correct. A handgun bullet destroys a couple of ounces of tissue in a person--less than one tenth of 1 percent of their body mass.
So lets say (purely for the sake of argument) that one caliber reliably destroys twice the tissue that another one does. Say that one destroys 2 ounces while the other only destroys 1 ounce. So now we're saying that one bullet destroys 0.035% of a 180lb person while the other destroys 0.07% of the person.
Clearly the fact that one bullet can destroy an extra 0.035% of the person is immaterial--what matters is what part of the person is being destroyed.
CAN it make a difference? Yes, one FBI expert provided a rough estimate saying that it "may" make a difference in 1 out of 100 shootings. That figure agrees well with the results from the simple monte carlo experiments I have carried out.
Nicodemus38
Member
- Joined
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- 583
the history of the "myth"
1. the army adopts the .38 caliber cartridge for service revolvers
2. the phillipine insurrection starts. front line soldiers find that the .38 caliber revolvers have a hard time penetrating the leather/wood/metal/bamboo body armor worn by moro tribesmen. common to find reports indicating 6-12 rounds of .38 revolver ammo needed to stop ONE moro attacker.
3. us army reissues a good number of 1873 model SAA revolvers in 45 long colt for use in the phillipines. Front line soldiers report "45 lc bullets penetrate through armor and the person wearing it. fewer shots needed to stop a single attacker
4. us army institutes a search for new handgun. they specify ballistics as close to the .45sw cartridge as possible in bullet weight, diameter, and velocity
5. the US ARMy adopts the model 1911 in 45acp as standard issue handgun. the handgun is sent to the phillipines. soldiers like its similar penetration to the 45lc. Phillipine conflict is official listed as "over". The 1911 is given credit for being "handgun that stopped the drugged up, armored moros FAST".
6. WW1 starts. americans send 1911s and the sw model 1917 chambered in 45acp to england. English love it, better then the webley ammo in regards to penetration. American soldiers still like it. however lugers are very popular to use, less recoil, lighter weight weapon and ammo.
7. prohibition starts in america. police have issue using .38 caliber handguns to put down criminals inside vehicles. 200 grain .38 caliber bullets introduced as stop gap measure. Still not completely helpful. Gangsters start heavy use of 45acp handguns and burpguns in large numbers. Police realize that 45acp weapons are doing more damage to police vehicles and personell then 38s are doing to criminals. Police switch to thompson burp guns, and are HAPPY. although BARS are FAR BETTER for anti vehicle use.
police like the rapid firing high capacity 45acp. just evens the score out.
finally, in the 1990s a medical tv show featured la county er doctors stating on film that they prefered the small bullet wounds created by fmj 9mm due to "small holes with very little secondary damage due to bone fragmentation." they admitted they hated the 45acp due to its "large holes in bone and tissue, and its tendency to smash through bone and create lots of bone fragments on the exit side."
the greatest reason for the ove of the 45acp and the 1911 comes from the hell that was vietnam. when no one really even had any confidence the damn m16 was actually even going to shoot, they knew that when they had an emergency, they could draw a 1911 and it would shoot as long as they had ammo in it. that kept many men alive and confident in thier ability to survive. As a result the men who carried 1911s, and actually stayed alive because of one have a great loyalty to it.
1. the army adopts the .38 caliber cartridge for service revolvers
2. the phillipine insurrection starts. front line soldiers find that the .38 caliber revolvers have a hard time penetrating the leather/wood/metal/bamboo body armor worn by moro tribesmen. common to find reports indicating 6-12 rounds of .38 revolver ammo needed to stop ONE moro attacker.
3. us army reissues a good number of 1873 model SAA revolvers in 45 long colt for use in the phillipines. Front line soldiers report "45 lc bullets penetrate through armor and the person wearing it. fewer shots needed to stop a single attacker
4. us army institutes a search for new handgun. they specify ballistics as close to the .45sw cartridge as possible in bullet weight, diameter, and velocity
5. the US ARMy adopts the model 1911 in 45acp as standard issue handgun. the handgun is sent to the phillipines. soldiers like its similar penetration to the 45lc. Phillipine conflict is official listed as "over". The 1911 is given credit for being "handgun that stopped the drugged up, armored moros FAST".
6. WW1 starts. americans send 1911s and the sw model 1917 chambered in 45acp to england. English love it, better then the webley ammo in regards to penetration. American soldiers still like it. however lugers are very popular to use, less recoil, lighter weight weapon and ammo.
7. prohibition starts in america. police have issue using .38 caliber handguns to put down criminals inside vehicles. 200 grain .38 caliber bullets introduced as stop gap measure. Still not completely helpful. Gangsters start heavy use of 45acp handguns and burpguns in large numbers. Police realize that 45acp weapons are doing more damage to police vehicles and personell then 38s are doing to criminals. Police switch to thompson burp guns, and are HAPPY. although BARS are FAR BETTER for anti vehicle use.
police like the rapid firing high capacity 45acp. just evens the score out.
finally, in the 1990s a medical tv show featured la county er doctors stating on film that they prefered the small bullet wounds created by fmj 9mm due to "small holes with very little secondary damage due to bone fragmentation." they admitted they hated the 45acp due to its "large holes in bone and tissue, and its tendency to smash through bone and create lots of bone fragments on the exit side."
the greatest reason for the ove of the 45acp and the 1911 comes from the hell that was vietnam. when no one really even had any confidence the damn m16 was actually even going to shoot, they knew that when they had an emergency, they could draw a 1911 and it would shoot as long as they had ammo in it. that kept many men alive and confident in thier ability to survive. As a result the men who carried 1911s, and actually stayed alive because of one have a great loyalty to it.
KodiakBeer
member
Around here we call that "missing". Your GF needs some training. Or maybe her antique clip-using .45 has the barrel burned out. What she does shoot - a converted Broomhandle Mauser?
An interesting observation I have made over the years taking care of gunshot wound victims:
I have operated on many people shot by 380's, 9mm, and 38 specials. Most of these people lived.
I have operated on very few people shot by 45's and 357 mags. Survival after surgery was less predictable.
I take this to mean one of two things: either 45s and 357s are not used very often in shootings, or if they are used often, they work better than 380s, 9mm, and 38 specials.
When I first realized this, my bedside gun was a Beretta 92 9mm. Now it is a Glock 21.
Another thing I would point out is that although there is little difference in diameter of 9mm/357 caliber bullets, versus 45 caliber bullets, the 45 caliber bullets have a 50% larger cross sectional area, and the rate of bleeding depends on the cross sectional area, not bullet diameter.
I have operated on many people shot by 380's, 9mm, and 38 specials. Most of these people lived.
I have operated on very few people shot by 45's and 357 mags. Survival after surgery was less predictable.
I take this to mean one of two things: either 45s and 357s are not used very often in shootings, or if they are used often, they work better than 380s, 9mm, and 38 specials.
When I first realized this, my bedside gun was a Beretta 92 9mm. Now it is a Glock 21.
Another thing I would point out is that although there is little difference in diameter of 9mm/357 caliber bullets, versus 45 caliber bullets, the 45 caliber bullets have a 50% larger cross sectional area, and the rate of bleeding depends on the cross sectional area, not bullet diameter.
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Guillermo
member
45 ACP simply transfers more energy into the target than a 9mm, 32ACP, 38Spl
The 357 transfers even more energy into the target but follow up shots are harder than a 45. Because of being more controllable than the 357, 45 is the preference of many.
The 357 transfers even more energy into the target but follow up shots are harder than a 45. Because of being more controllable than the 357, 45 is the preference of many.
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