I live in Maryland where gun sale transfers must go thru either an FFL or thru Maryland State Police directly. I was wondering if many States allow their Citizens to do face to face gun transfers. Is it often legal to sell guns person to person with no paperwork at all? Thank you.
How do "face to face" gun sales work?
- Thread starter RM
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Coyote3855
Member
Legal in Wyoming. Private party to private party requires no paperwork. It's the dreaded "gun show loophole" that has the gungrabber's knickers in a twist.
El Tejon
Member
Sure, as long as I am not buying from a FFL. In Indiana happens every day (someone tell Boston T. Party, he mucks this up in his Bible, one the many pet peeve errors in his work).
Happens like this: I see gun, I pay for gun, I go home with gun.
Happens like this: I see gun, I pay for gun, I go home with gun.
burrhead
Member
Here in Texas I give you money, you give me the gun. We smile, shake hands and go our separate ways.
NORTEXED
Member
Per burrhead, but I usually ask for a crude, signed Bill Of Sale, to prevent a "somebody stole my gun" claim.
Shawnee
member
Hi RM...
I'm pretty sure "Face to Face" private sales of firearms (as described by the other posters) is legal in all but about ten (or fewer) states.
You just happen to live in one of the few states where it is not legal.
The reason(s) you have so many gun restrictions is because Maryland has the 3rd highest number of murders in the nation and Baltimore, which has 5 times as many murders as the rest of Maryland, ranks 3rd in the per capita murder rate in the nation. And your "neighbor", Wash. D.C. which has even more anti-gun laws than you do ranks 1st in the nation for per capita murder rate. Another interesting statistic - of the 570 murders in Maryland last year, two (count 'em, 2) were committed with rifles. Yet another bit of trivia - Maryland had more murders last year than the total of Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, N. Dakota, S. Dakota and Nebraska.
So, as you can see, the people of Maryland have been forced to pass a lot of restrictions against guns in order to make the state safe.
I'm pretty sure "Face to Face" private sales of firearms (as described by the other posters) is legal in all but about ten (or fewer) states.
You just happen to live in one of the few states where it is not legal.
The reason(s) you have so many gun restrictions is because Maryland has the 3rd highest number of murders in the nation and Baltimore, which has 5 times as many murders as the rest of Maryland, ranks 3rd in the per capita murder rate in the nation. And your "neighbor", Wash. D.C. which has even more anti-gun laws than you do ranks 1st in the nation for per capita murder rate. Another interesting statistic - of the 570 murders in Maryland last year, two (count 'em, 2) were committed with rifles. Yet another bit of trivia - Maryland had more murders last year than the total of Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, N. Dakota, S. Dakota and Nebraska.
So, as you can see, the people of Maryland have been forced to pass a lot of restrictions against guns in order to make the state safe.
ChiefThunderstick
Member
I am going to sell a .22 rifle at the next gunshow in Salem, VA. I want to CMA so I'm issuing a BOS with the date, serial # and name of buyer and seller in print as well as both signatures on the document. I think that someone at some govt. agency has to be informed that the firearm has been sold and it's serial number must be disclosed. Does anyone know what agency gets this report of a weapon sold?
Falconeer
Member
Florida is FTF
I've sold and purchased several guns face to face. I bring a bill of sale listing what's included in the sale, serial numbers, and either a driver's license number or concealed carry permit number for both parties. We both sign, each gets a copy. That way everyone knows exactly what went down.
I've sold and purchased several guns face to face. I bring a bill of sale listing what's included in the sale, serial numbers, and either a driver's license number or concealed carry permit number for both parties. We both sign, each gets a copy. That way everyone knows exactly what went down.
Bart Noir
Member
Hey Chief, isn't it hard to type on the keyboard when you are bending over so far?
I mean, you don't even know of a law saying you must "sell and tell" yet you want to obey such? Just get a receipt after seeing ID, on which the names match, and keep it squirreled away for when the federal agents come calling. Yeah, I've BTDT and they eventually got tired of seeing receipts from gunshops where I sold off guns.
Bart Noir
I mean, you don't even know of a law saying you must "sell and tell" yet you want to obey such? Just get a receipt after seeing ID, on which the names match, and keep it squirreled away for when the federal agents come calling. Yeah, I've BTDT and they eventually got tired of seeing receipts from gunshops where I sold off guns.
Bart Noir
Novus Collectus
Member
Maryland does not, I repeat, does NOT require "transfers must go thru either an FFL or thru Maryland State Police directly." They only require it for transfer of regulated friearms in Maryland. If you have an unregulated long gun (unregulated in MD), then a person to person transfer can occur without a background check as long as the transferee is not prohibited from owning a firearm.
As far as "regulated" long guns go, an example of what requires a background check when a non FFL licensee sells (not including 03 C&R FFLs) to another non-licensee is if you sold a Heavy barrel AR15 to another MD resident you would not need to go through an FFL or the state police because it is not a regulated long gun, but sell an AR15 without the heavy barrell, then you need to go through an FFL or the state police because it is regulated.
All non-antique handguns sold within the state must go through alicensed MD dealer or through the State Police, period. A C&R handgun (according to the current MD Attorney General) must go through the State Police or a MD licensed dealer as well when sold within the state, but a C&R licensee can order a C&R handgun from out of state using their license without having to go through the state or an other FFL (bogus inerpretation not allowing a C&R handgun purchase within the state IMO). A MD C&R licensee can also use their license to buy a C&R handgun while out of the state as well and the restriction only applies to someone selling it to them within the state lines (mail order does not count as in state purchase either apparently).
As far as "regulated" long guns go, an example of what requires a background check when a non FFL licensee sells (not including 03 C&R FFLs) to another non-licensee is if you sold a Heavy barrel AR15 to another MD resident you would not need to go through an FFL or the state police because it is not a regulated long gun, but sell an AR15 without the heavy barrell, then you need to go through an FFL or the state police because it is regulated.
All non-antique handguns sold within the state must go through alicensed MD dealer or through the State Police, period. A C&R handgun (according to the current MD Attorney General) must go through the State Police or a MD licensed dealer as well when sold within the state, but a C&R licensee can order a C&R handgun from out of state using their license without having to go through the state or an other FFL (bogus inerpretation not allowing a C&R handgun purchase within the state IMO). A MD C&R licensee can also use their license to buy a C&R handgun while out of the state as well and the restriction only applies to someone selling it to them within the state lines (mail order does not count as in state purchase either apparently).
skipjack
Member
I live in Maryland, and we used to do transfers with "regulated" firearms, as well as long guns. It has been a dozen or so years since the law was passed to require paperwork.
When I did sell a handgun (regulated firearm is a result of the inclusion of "assault weapons" to the handgun category), I just got a receipt, and gave one for the cash. No serial number, etc. Same for long guns.
I have bought one handgun under the new law ftf. It involved me, the seller and the firearm going to the state police barracks for transfer. The firearm had to stay with the seller until the transfer was "not disapproved" and received by both parties.
When I did sell a handgun (regulated firearm is a result of the inclusion of "assault weapons" to the handgun category), I just got a receipt, and gave one for the cash. No serial number, etc. Same for long guns.
I have bought one handgun under the new law ftf. It involved me, the seller and the firearm going to the state police barracks for transfer. The firearm had to stay with the seller until the transfer was "not disapproved" and received by both parties.
Shawnee
member
Another interesting bit of trivia comes from Wisconsin's 9-day deer/gun season this year. There were no accidents the opening day and in spite of 366,000 deer taken during the season there were just three injury accidents, and none were firearm related.
In contrast, the city of Milwaukee alone reported nearly 20 injuries among shoppers on the day after Thanksgiving.
Time for Shopper Safety Education classes? Registration of Shopping Carts?
Good Lord! Where is Senator Fat Kennedy and Sarah Brady?
In contrast, the city of Milwaukee alone reported nearly 20 injuries among shoppers on the day after Thanksgiving.
Time for Shopper Safety Education classes? Registration of Shopping Carts?
Good Lord! Where is Senator Fat Kennedy and Sarah Brady?
orionengnr
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...
Boy, I hope that was sarcasm...if so, it was quite subtle. I recommend adding a
...otherwise someone might think you were serious(ly misguided).Shawnee
member
Hi Orion...
Lots of people think I'm seriously misguided.
But, just in case, Yes, there was a wee dram or maybe two of sarcasm there. No offense to RM though. He doesn't make the laws there.
Lots of people think I'm seriously misguided.
But, just in case, Yes, there was a wee dram or maybe two of sarcasm there. No offense to RM though. He doesn't make the laws there.
eastwood44mag
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In IL:
Both parties must have a Firearms Owner Identification Card (FOID)--no, no, we don't register guns...just the owners
All FTF sales require a BOS to be kept by both parties for 10 years, including date, make, model, caliber, serial, etc.
Longguns require a waiting period of 24 hours, handguns 72 hours.
I want to move to a free state.
Both parties must have a Firearms Owner Identification Card (FOID)--no, no, we don't register guns...just the owners
All FTF sales require a BOS to be kept by both parties for 10 years, including date, make, model, caliber, serial, etc.
Longguns require a waiting period of 24 hours, handguns 72 hours.
I want to move to a free state.
Sistema1927
Member
Same here in your neighboring state to the West.
Isn't freedom wonderful?
yhtomit
Member
Don't most states require that both parties be same-state?
I used to wonder (but never looked deeply into) this permutation of the laws ... I know (I *think* I know, that is) that in many states face-to-face private sales are allowed, but only between residents of the state where the transfer takes place.
Is that not true across the country? Some of the responses I see to this thread imply that it is not. I used to drive regularly from El Paso to Seattle, and occasionally I'd scan classified ads and drool just a bit along the route ... Western states' classified ads would cure most Maryland politicians' collective constipation if they only be taught to read well enough to appreciate them.
Could I have bought face to face private sale guns (with a Texas DL / residence) in Utah? Oregon? Washington? Idaho? New Mexico? Arizona? Please say No, or I'll have yet another thing in life to regret
timothy
I used to wonder (but never looked deeply into) this permutation of the laws ... I know (I *think* I know, that is
) that in many states face-to-face private sales are allowed, but only between residents of the state where the transfer takes place. Is that not true across the country? Some of the responses I see to this thread imply that it is not. I used to drive regularly from El Paso to Seattle, and occasionally I'd scan classified ads and drool just a bit along the route ... Western states' classified ads would cure most Maryland politicians' collective constipation if they only be taught to read well enough to appreciate them.
Could I have bought face to face private sale guns (with a Texas DL / residence) in Utah? Oregon? Washington? Idaho? New Mexico? Arizona?
Please say No, or I'll have yet another thing in life to regret timothy
SniperStraz
Member
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- Nov 13, 2006
- Messages
- 871
Fine in GA
Its fine to do in Georgia so long as the buyer is over 18.
Its fine to do in Georgia so long as the buyer is over 18.
Shawnee
member
"Don't most states require that both parties be same-state? "
That usually applies only to sales by FFL holders. And it applies to handguns but not rifles (except a few listed "controlled" rifles).
In most states, a private individual (not holding an FFL) can sell any firearm he/she owns to any other private individual (not holding an FFL) no matter where they are from and no matter the gun type.
At gun shows there will be some exhibitors who hold FFLs and they will tell you they can sell only to residents of the state in which they (the exhibitors)reside. But you will also come across exhibitors who do not hold an FFL and are there to sell their private guns - and they can sell to anyone regardless of where they are from.
Have run into this in Ohio, Kentucky, Tennessee, Georgia and Florida. In Ohio, I was not even allowed to bid on guns at a farm auction (conducted by a licensed auctioneer) because I had not yet gotten an Ohio Driver's License.
But guns owned in private collections and sold by the owner are private property, which is treated differently from the guns bought for the purpose of resale by a dealer with an FFL.
Still, always best to double-check the laws of the state where one is thinking of buying a firearm.
That usually applies only to sales by FFL holders. And it applies to handguns but not rifles (except a few listed "controlled" rifles).
In most states, a private individual (not holding an FFL) can sell any firearm he/she owns to any other private individual (not holding an FFL) no matter where they are from and no matter the gun type.
At gun shows there will be some exhibitors who hold FFLs and they will tell you they can sell only to residents of the state in which they (the exhibitors)reside. But you will also come across exhibitors who do not hold an FFL and are there to sell their private guns - and they can sell to anyone regardless of where they are from.
Have run into this in Ohio, Kentucky, Tennessee, Georgia and Florida. In Ohio, I was not even allowed to bid on guns at a farm auction (conducted by a licensed auctioneer) because I had not yet gotten an Ohio Driver's License.
But guns owned in private collections and sold by the owner are private property, which is treated differently from the guns bought for the purpose of resale by a dealer with an FFL.
Still, always best to double-check the laws of the state where one is thinking of buying a firearm.
ChiefThunderstick
Member
"Hey Chief, isn't it hard to type on the keyboard when you are bending over so far?"
No problem at all, I type with my teeth!
Now bite into this:
"Yeah, I've BTDT and they eventually got tired of seeing receipts from gunshops where I sold off guns."
Bart Noir
We were discussing face to face non FFL sales, not the carefree type of transaction you made with gunshops.
I don't bend over, the world bends up. It's all a matter of perspective.
No problem at all, I type with my teeth!
Now bite into this:
"Yeah, I've BTDT and they eventually got tired of seeing receipts from gunshops where I sold off guns."
Bart Noir
We were discussing face to face non FFL sales, not the carefree type of transaction you made with gunshops.
I don't bend over, the world bends up. It's all a matter of perspective.
Here in Iowa
a person without an FFL can legally sell long guns and handguns to other private parties. If the gun is a handgun the seller is required to make sure that the buyer has a "Permit to acquire a handgun." That is all that is necessary. As far as sales to a resident of another state I do not know what the law would be on that. FYI, the "Permit to Acquire a Handgun" form is obtained from the Sheriff of the County of residence and is good for one year and all the handguns you want to buy with no waiting period. It costs $15 to get one in my county and the Sheriff simply does a criminal background check and then issues the permit. Be aware, this is wholly different than a permit to carry...it is only a permit to acquire.
a person without an FFL can legally sell long guns and handguns to other private parties. If the gun is a handgun the seller is required to make sure that the buyer has a "Permit to acquire a handgun." That is all that is necessary. As far as sales to a resident of another state I do not know what the law would be on that. FYI, the "Permit to Acquire a Handgun" form is obtained from the Sheriff of the County of residence and is good for one year and all the handguns you want to buy with no waiting period. It costs $15 to get one in my county and the Sheriff simply does a criminal background check and then issues the permit. Be aware, this is wholly different than a permit to carry...it is only a permit to acquire.
The statement above is entirely wrong. From the ATF's website:
(emphasis added)
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b3
You could have, but only if you had it shipped to a FFL holder in your state (making it not really a FTF sale). From the ATF's website:
Here is a question for all Marylanders
I live in California and have a C&R license. I want to sell my buddy in Maryland a gun. Either an SKS Yugo M59 or a K31.
Do I need to send it to a FFL1 holder or can I send it straight to him (he does not have a C&R)? Can I hand-carry it to him and do a FTF transfer? Is there a list of "regulated" firearms for Maryland?
I have always planned to send it to a FFL that will transfer to him, but if it can be done easier and is legal, I would like to save my friend the transfer fees.
Thanks.
I live in California and have a C&R license. I want to sell my buddy in Maryland a gun. Either an SKS Yugo M59 or a K31.
Do I need to send it to a FFL1 holder or can I send it straight to him (he does not have a C&R)? Can I hand-carry it to him and do a FTF transfer? Is there a list of "regulated" firearms for Maryland?
I have always planned to send it to a FFL that will transfer to him, but if it can be done easier and is legal, I would like to save my friend the transfer fees.
Thanks.
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