How effective is .223 against cars?

[Blacksmoke]

We have a somewhat urgent situation prompting this question. Recently, a shoot out took place between a neighbor defending his teenage son and a gang from another town. The gang members perped a driveby shooting of the neighbors house. The neighbor was waiting inside with an AK47 and when the gang members opened fire on the house with handguns, he emptied a full magazine on the car creating a lot of damage but, as far as I know, did not hit the occupants. Why is another story.

Now, I do not have an AK. I do have a Mini 14 with 30 and 20 round clips and a whole bunch of 67 grain FMJ ammo. Is this round effective against unarmoured civilian type cars and trucks? Range would be within 100 feet. I wonder if there is a lot of deflection with the light .223 on a steel target. Alternatively, I do have a Garand. Which is likely to be more effective in returning fire the higher capacity Mini-14 or the harder hitting Garand?

I suspect the leading Drive-by A-hole will be out of circulation for some time as the State Police (from fifty miles away) are serving a warrant on him right now. They arrested his son about a week ago.

 

[Eric F]

I have shot some 3 gun matches where you had to shoot threw cars. I had the ss109 ammo at the time and it went in one side but did not reliably go threw the other side. I would shooting cars I suggest 308 but since you are not asking that but some surplus ap ammo. Or go with the 30-06.

 

[kingjoey]

Standard .223 ball isn't terribly effective against vehicles, it tends to disintegrate when passing thru body metal. A .223 with a penetrator would work better. Given a choice I would opt for the 7.62x39, they'll go thru body metal reliably. I suspect your neighbor was using HP or SP ammo, milspec ball ammo should go thru the car door and anything behind it. The Garand would be a better choice than the Mini IMO, although it has less capacity it will punch thru without a problem. I have a pair of Maadi Hakims that I would use in that capacity, with AP ammo they will punch thru cars, tires, and motors without a hiccup.

 

[Eric F]

and motors

ok lets not get carried away here. its not a cannon round.

 

[GigaBuist]

I have shot some 3 gun matches where you had to shoot threw cars. I had the ss109 ammo at the time and it went in one side but did not reliably go threw the other side.

That seems to jive with the Box O Truth testing done on a Buick: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot4.htm

Of course, I'm not sure it's a good idea to try shooting at a passing car. Seems like getting to proper cover would be a higher priority if not the only priority.

 

[bgeddes]

Why not shoot at the glass (and heads behind it)? It seems even if the glass were to obstruct the first shot, the second would be traveling through a far less sound structure.

Just my $0.02

 

[Float Pilot]

I have had the opportunity to fire a M249 using 62 grain M855 ball ammo into moving vehicles. While eventually having an effect upon the drivers / occupants, the 5.56mm round leaves much to be desired as far as stopping a small pickup truck heading your way at high speed.

Sounds like you live in a similar place,,, what State is that in? I need to stay clear..

 

[General Geoff]

This whole situation reminds me of the alternate 1985 timeline in Back to the Future Part II, where Stricklin gets ambushed by a bunch of punks who do a driveby, and he shoots back with his shotgun yelling "SLACKERS!!".

Funny on screen, but not something I'd want to be involved in for real.

 

[jackdanson]

I wouldn't trust .223 if I was strictly using it against a car. 30.06 would work better, but you if you are just spraying into the car you might be better off with the .223. Anyone know how a 12gauge slug would fair?

 

[GigaBuist]

f you are just spraying into the car you might be better off with the .223

Actually I think you'd be better off with rocks. Dumping a mag of .223 at a moving object with the fire concentrated in an area covered by asphalt isn't very respectful of Rule #4.

 

[Gingerbreadman]

Do you have returning fire if it comes your way in mind, or are you preparing to shoot at a vehicle containing folks who are shooting at a neighbor? If the latter is the case, are you covered legally? Also, do you live in a densely populated area or is everyone more spread out?

 

[sarduy]

i'm sure that a 7.62x39 will go right thrugh a newer car door.

 

[kingjoey]

Quote:
and motors

ok lets not get carried away here. its not a cannon round.

No its not, but it is a very heavy bullet and with an AP projo it is surprisingly hard to stop. We were firing 196gr AP's at the back end of a Nissan car (Altima IIRC) and the rounds were going thru the car, thru the firewall, and knocking holes in the engine block. I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it. We also tested some 124gr 9mm ball ammo at it from the side from a MAC-11 and a couple other SMG's and we recovered some of the bullets from the B-pillar and inside the doors, really disappointing performance. M855 ammo out of an AR was getting thru the doors but not much past that. The downside to using a .223 in the situation that the OP described is that the windows will be down so the pane and lifting arms will also be in the way of the bullet going thru the door. Glass causes bullets to deform and fragment pretty quickly so about the only thing that would probably make it into the passenger compartment with a M855/SS109 would be the penetrator since the jacket and lead would have stripped off. Best option would be to aim for the windows, since they're down anyways about the toughest thing in the way of the bullet would be a baseball cap

 

[Blacksmoke]

If I was not clear in my original post, I appologize. The situation presented involves returning fire on a passing motor vehicle, the occupants of which are shooting at my house. This is the situation a neighbor found himself in this past Sunday evening. He chose an AK47. I do not own one. My choices are .223, .30-06, 12 guage OO, .45 APC ball (out of a Kahr Thompson Model 1927) and a bunch of hunting cartridges out of bolt action long guns.

This is a small rural village (population 400). I have a clear field of fire from the front of the house across open pastures backed by a mesa or a grouping of trees along a river. Nearest house is about 1/2 mile. No other houses in line of fire in the direction of the road.

Police assistance is unlikely. Nearest State Police office is fifty miles. They are closed on weekends and nights. The next staffed office is ninety miles. There are no routine police patrols. Response time can be measured in hours and sometimes days. So, we are on our own when a crime is in progress.

The perpetrator and his father have a long career of violent criminal activity. I am on their "list" of enemies as I led police from Colorado (who pursued him over the border into our village) to his home after he fled from their pursuit. New Mexico has a reciprical cross border pursuit agreement with Colorado.

The indicated preference for the .30-06 was my initial choice but I wanted to know if the .223 has any application here. Personally, I think my Mini-14 with a 4X scope is great for varmits and coyotes and that is about all. Since that cartridge is our army's main battle rifle round, it seems a question worth asking.

Anyone have a semi-auto BAR for sale? I mean a Browning Model 1918 like Ohio Ordinance produces. I guess a Springfield Armoury M1A would work about as well and be more affordable. Although I have a lot of confidence in the Model 1918.

 

[Golden Hound]

I hate to sound like a coward but if someone was pulling a drive-by on my house, I think the only thing I would do is hide. Stepping outside to confront a moving car filled with guys with guns (possibly automatics) isn't something I would try. If I could get a shot at them from an upstairs window - maybe.

 

[kingjoey]

I have some black-tip 30.06 AP ammo floating around here somewhere, that'd take care of any pesky car 'problems'. Empty the Garand into the hood then follow up with the Mini-14 or Thompson

 

[Blacksmoke]

Golden Hound is not wrong. The situation that occured involved a lot of cruising back and forth. The neighbor in the house followed this from his window. WHen the villages idiots opened fire on his house, he returned fire. Houses here tend to be small without basements. If he did not shoot back, the attacks would just continue until the occupants are dead.

 

[Blacksmoke]

Empty the Garand into the hood then follow up with the Mini-14 or Thompson

-kingjoey

Not a bad tactical response. The Ruger is more reliable. The Kahr Thompson has some feeding problems I need to work out. It tends to jam.

 

[Golden Hound]

I have a basement, but if I didn't, I think I'd go to an upstairs window and get out my SKS, and open fire with FMJ's as long as I was sure that I could get a clean shot at the car and that there was nothing behind it. Thing is, it might be difficult to do that on a moving target, and the risk of hitting someone accidentally might be too great. It'd be a tough call. Mostly I just thank God that I live in a safe, small town.

I think after a few quick and powerful shots from a rifle, the drive-by thugs would be hauling ass. Gangbangers are not known for their courage.

 

[leadcounsel]

Well, there are a few questions here to be answered. The first is the obvious, how effective is a .223 against moving vehicles.

One of my jobs is to review foreign claims submitted by Iraqis under the Foreign Claims Act. In doing my job, I see hundreds of photos from Soldiers shooting disabling shots at vehicles - cars, pickup trucks and vans. I'm here to tell you that the .223 does a pretty fine job at making people and vehicles dead. It easily punches through doors, windows, seats, etc. and I've seen the damage it does to the human occupants. And while I've never seen the inside of an engine and haven't measured the stopping distance, the .223 appears to be pretty effective at disabling the mechanics of a car in addition to the drivers and passengers. Shots to the driver compartment, engine and tires seem to immobilize cars rather quickly. Sure, sometimes it's coming from a SAW, but many times just your plain old M4 semi-auto.

From personal experience, I've shot my AR15 .223 through rather thick scrap pieces of steel and iron and am pretty confident in its ability to move through all but the thickest parts of the car without even slowing down. I would be confident that the .223 could punch holes in the engine block.

Now lets discuss the legal dangers of shooting at a moving car in your neighborhood. You would probably, at minimum, be arrested for reckless endangerment of others with a dangerous weapon. You could do serious property damage by unleashing a magazine of ammo outside in your street at a speedinig car. If you killed the driver or disabled the car and that led to an accident, you could be jointly liable for the consequences in a lawsuit. And finally, God forbid you killed an innocent person with an errant shot, you would likely be prosecuted and end up in prison.

So, I think it would be incredibly stupid to fire at a moving car in your 'hood. If you have gangbangers doing drivebys in your 'hood you need to notify the police and if it doesn't improve you need to move.

Edited to add: I reread the clarification post - if the OP has complete safety in field of fire behind the perps in the car, with no danger of hitting innocent people, and the OP has notified the police and they are unable to help him, then he has both legal grounds to defend himself and the ability to do so resposibly. A mans home is his castle and he should defend it responsibly.

 

[SomeKid]

I would say 30 rounds of .223. Volume more than anything else.

More important though, how much warning are you going to get?

 

[MTMilitiaman]

+1 on your own M1A suggestion. Either that or a FAL would work well.

The 5.56 does okay as a military round because of the tactics employed, and because it is used at a much higher volume and supported by much larger weapons than civilians are likely to have access to. For the civilian looking for a rifle to hold down the fort, the limitations of the 5.56 are more appreciable, and its advantages, less so, since few civilians are ever going to be able to afford a legal select-fire rifle. I strongly feel that a 7.62mm battle rifle clone is the most logical choice as it is the most firepower a civilian is likely to get their hands on legally. Twenty rounds of 147 gr M80 ball in a semi-automatic rifle is the best chance a civilian has to turn cover into concealment.

If the situation calls for less penetration, there are HPBTs and specialty rounds like Hornady's 155 gr TAP round. But save for the opportunity to post up behind a Barrett, an M1A is about as good as it is likely to get for this scenario.

Of course, if we are talking about buying new rifles, the AK would be cheaper than the M1A. And while being less effective, it will still be an improvement over the poodle shooter.

Until then, I would find some SS109 to load in the Mini-14. It will be about as effective as you can make the 5.56...

 

[dagger dog]

The glass area is the most likley target area if you are shooting at some one in the vehicle, the doors, have "guard rails" inside to make them stand up to federal crash standards, coupled with electric motors and regulators for the power windows.

Shooting well aimed shots through the glass intending to stop the driver or shooter insde could be done with the .223 and FMJ rounds. But shooting well aimed shots in the heat of being shot at is usually not what happens. It will be most likley spray and pray, the '06 0r .308 Nato will go where 223 rounds never tread, including through both doors and any thing between, and through the trunk and lodge in the engine.

The old 30'06 or .308 nato is the way to go here .

 

[Thin Black Line]

Now lets discuss the legal dangers of shooting at a moving car in your neighborhood. You would probably, at minimum, be arrested for reckless endangerment of others with a dangerous weapon. You could do serious property damage by unleashing a magazine of ammo outside in your street at a speedinig car. If you killed the driver or disabled the car and that led to an accident, you could be jointly liable for the consequences in a lawsuit. And finally, God forbid you killed an innocent person with an errant shot, you would likely be prosecuted and end up in prison.

So, I think it would be incredibly stupid to fire at a moving car in your 'hood. If you have gangbangers doing drivebys in your 'hood you need to notify the police and if it doesn't improve you need to move.

+1. This is reality and not the movies. Once that car passes by (even if
the occupants were shooting 300 rds a second ago) and one of your bullets
enters the back of one of their heads, you (and/or the neighbor) are
going to have a lot of explaining to do. It sounds like you are in a very small
rural county so keep in mind you will probably be occupying the same jail as
the gang members when everyone is later arrested.

Yes, it sucks to be where you're at with scarce police presence and this is just
going to get worse as gasoline prices go up (I remember when our county
sheriff dept was limited to 3 gals per day for one officer to do his nightly
patrol --no he couldn't do the entire county and it was a drive and sit at
one random location unless called).

I would suggest parking piece of cr@p vehicles randomly up and down both
side of your street --far enough out in the road to be obstacles and then
placing Hesco Barriers in front of your houses.

This is the future.

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

Get an AK47 or SKS. Those rounds will damage a car like you wouldn't believe. Get milsurp ball that is proven and functional. I have inspected military equipment coming back from iraq that took damage from Those AKs and since Ak rounds are the same being fired through an SKS then go and get an SKS.
Those rounds penetrated steel like hot butter.