I don't think you want to be talking about this quite so much in public. A discussion about terminal ballistics is fine in deer camp, and fine in general terms for self defense. This is about a specific person or persons. I wouldn't buy a gun especially for this. Don't set traps. What you have is fine.
How effective is .223 against cars?
- Thread starter Blacksmoke
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mljdeckard
Member
(I'm not reading all the other pages of posts,)
Here's the tricky part. A 30-06 BLACK-TIP armor piercing bullet might be better than a 62-gr steel-core 5.56 for penetration, but they are difficult to come by these days.
Another thing to consider is why the military dropped the 30 caliber rounds for 5.56 in the first place. You are in the exact same dilemma. Which delivers more effective fire? Your Garand is limited to 8 rounds. It is a VERY heavy, bulky rifle. If it was ME, I could aim a mini faster, fire it faster, and probably deliver more fire on target much faster than I could with a Garand. If you had to reload it, you could reload at about the same speed, but with a much higher capacity than a Garand.
I have had the opportunity to shred a car with a M-4, using 5.56 steel-core ammo. I hosed the same car with an SKS. the 5.56 penetrated everything except the bell housing, engine block, axles, and brake rotors. The 7.62 was less likely to go out the other side. I have an AK and an M-4. I would definitely grab the M-4 with a mag of ss-109 first.
Here's the tricky part. A 30-06 BLACK-TIP armor piercing bullet might be better than a 62-gr steel-core 5.56 for penetration, but they are difficult to come by these days.
Another thing to consider is why the military dropped the 30 caliber rounds for 5.56 in the first place. You are in the exact same dilemma. Which delivers more effective fire? Your Garand is limited to 8 rounds. It is a VERY heavy, bulky rifle. If it was ME, I could aim a mini faster, fire it faster, and probably deliver more fire on target much faster than I could with a Garand. If you had to reload it, you could reload at about the same speed, but with a much higher capacity than a Garand.
I have had the opportunity to shred a car with a M-4, using 5.56 steel-core ammo. I hosed the same car with an SKS. the 5.56 penetrated everything except the bell housing, engine block, axles, and brake rotors. The 7.62 was less likely to go out the other side. I have an AK and an M-4. I would definitely grab the M-4 with a mag of ss-109 first.
Thin Black Line
Member
It's time for some practice. Understand your shot patterns as distance
increases. Opt for the safety of cover rather than immediately returning fire
and watch what the dogs do.
Good luck.
BammaYankee
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What MartinS said. Also, since you say they already killed one of your dogs, I would keep trying to get law enforcement involved.
This issue won't simply end after one shootout (hopefully it will never come to that) and forming a positive working relationship with LE early on can only help down the road.
In the mean time, you are more than well armed already should it come to it. I would focus more on figuring out methods of early bad guy detection and rapid self extraction.
My $.02
This issue won't simply end after one shootout (hopefully it will never come to that) and forming a positive working relationship with LE early on can only help down the road.
In the mean time, you are more than well armed already should it come to it. I would focus more on figuring out methods of early bad guy detection and rapid self extraction.
My $.02
TCB in TN
Member
At ranges at or under 50 yards I would go with a 12ga and 00buck. Put a couple through the drivers side glass and most of your problems will go away. BTW as for rate of fire, I am not a big shotgun shooter, but can easily empty my mossy 12ga (5 rounds) in under 3 seconds, if I were in your shoes I would add an extended tube and be sending 8 rounds down range real quick. I would also keep my handgun on my hip and a probably that garand strategically placed. But the shotty would be my first choice. BTW if you decide to get another gun, I would try to get the Saiga 12 ga and plenty of mags (20 rd drums).
OP
OP
Blacksmoke
Member
I found out this afternoon that the main perp of the drive-by who was arrested Friday evening was released Saturday morning and all charges were dropped. I do not know if that decision was made by the State Police, the Sheriff or the DA. I emailed the DA today asking him to explain why it was a good idea to release this guy. I also understand that he vowed retribution on the people who burned his house down. The cops thought it was a meth pot explosion but the perp seems to think it was the neighbors he shot at last week in the drive-by.
Just to clarify some of the questions askes, I am not planning on stopping the car should there be a drive-by with me as the target. I plan one stopping the people inside the car from continuing to shoot at my house. That is self defense, as far as I can tell.
The State Police refused to respond until the crime of shooting at the neighbors house occured. They did not want to come out while the guys were cruising back and forth brandishing weapons out the window and making threats.
Now in July 2005 we had a drive by with eleven 7.62 mm rounds striking a different neighbors house. "911" was called and the Sheriff sent one rather nervous Deputy who looked about 17 to investigate. The neighbor called me and I went over to the crime scene to show the Deputy where the shell casings were. I doubt he would have even looked for them on his own. What can I expect? Deputy pay starts at $8 per hour. If the Deputy has law enforcement certification he gets $11 to start. Certification is not required for two years following start date.
Just to clarify some of the questions askes, I am not planning on stopping the car should there be a drive-by with me as the target. I plan one stopping the people inside the car from continuing to shoot at my house. That is self defense, as far as I can tell.
The State Police refused to respond until the crime of shooting at the neighbors house occured. They did not want to come out while the guys were cruising back and forth brandishing weapons out the window and making threats.
Now in July 2005 we had a drive by with eleven 7.62 mm rounds striking a different neighbors house. "911" was called and the Sheriff sent one rather nervous Deputy who looked about 17 to investigate. The neighbor called me and I went over to the crime scene to show the Deputy where the shell casings were. I doubt he would have even looked for them on his own. What can I expect? Deputy pay starts at $8 per hour. If the Deputy has law enforcement certification he gets $11 to start. Certification is not required for two years following start date.
So, enjoying your little slice of the old west up there?
Since it is too late to recommend not getting involved in other folks' business, please keep in mind that feuds are very real and last generations in that part of the state. Whatever you do, do not get on the Sheriff's bad side, you want to be on good terms with him.
As far as firearms and ammo questions, any of your rifles should do fine car or no. With shotguns I would prefer 2 3/4" slugs for outdoor use. Keep a pistol on or nearby at all times. The geese are better than any alarm, so you have that covered.
You do not want anyone to get close enough to light your house on fire, and you should have several fire extinguishers handy in the house. Incendiaries should be a big no-no, fires in the wilderness are hard to fight. Matter of fact, you should probably clear the brush away from the house for at least 50 yards.
For those not familiar with New Mexico, yes it can really be like this. No need for belt fed weapons or anti tank rockets, but common sense will save your bacon where firepower will fail.
Good luck!
Since it is too late to recommend not getting involved in other folks' business, please keep in mind that feuds are very real and last generations in that part of the state. Whatever you do, do not get on the Sheriff's bad side, you want to be on good terms with him.
As far as firearms and ammo questions, any of your rifles should do fine car or no. With shotguns I would prefer 2 3/4" slugs for outdoor use. Keep a pistol on or nearby at all times. The geese are better than any alarm, so you have that covered.
You do not want anyone to get close enough to light your house on fire, and you should have several fire extinguishers handy in the house. Incendiaries should be a big no-no, fires in the wilderness are hard to fight. Matter of fact, you should probably clear the brush away from the house for at least 50 yards.
For those not familiar with New Mexico, yes it can really be like this. No need for belt fed weapons or anti tank rockets, but common sense will save your bacon where firepower will fail.
Good luck!
RockyMtnTactical
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The best load for penetrating cars, windshields, etc... would be trophy bonded bear claws by Federal (Tactical - LE223T1 or Premium P223T2).
Merledog
Member
I've been following this thread with no small amount of interest. Couple of suggestions for what they're worth. What about putting a piece of scrap plate steel under a window, or some other method of stopping incoming, and being able to return fire protected other than your upper body while taking aim? I'd keep the garand loaded with whatever load your able to decide on for penetration to disable the vehicle. Then clean up the soft targets with your benelli and a mag full of 00? If this would happen after dark I'd rather have the margin of error afforded by the greater impact area of the shotgun. But in full daylight the greater magazine capacity of the .223 might come into play. No matter what you do you should probably run some drills so your familiar with where all your gear is and where your targets are likely to be.
Rifleman 173
Member
A few years ago Hamilton County police officers in Indiana were serving a drug warrant on a guy's house. The suspect was not at home when the drug raid began. When he arrived a little while later, the suspect tried to run over officers with his Chevrolet Suburban. Officers using AR-15 rifles had their .223 bullets defeated by the windshield of the big SUV. Officers shooting their .40 S&W pistols had their bullets go through the windshield to stop the suspect cold. In the follow-up investigation, the Hamilton County officials found that the .223 caliber ammo either deflected off of the windshield or lodged in the glass but most of it failed to penetrate the glass. As a result of that information, some police agencies are upping their rifle calibers to allow for some more effective punching tools to be in their arsenals. One agency I know of is letting some officers, not all officers, carry .308 caliber rifles in either the M-1A or AR-10 forms. The officers have to qualify with their rifles and pass shoot-don't shoot training courses before being allowed to carry these rifles. I think that eventually you will see police officers carrying handguns, .223/5.56 tactical rifles or .308/7.62 NATO rifles spread out over shifts and departments based upon needs and training requirements.
There are alot of cases where 5.56/.223 did not penetrate windshields. Many times the angles of the windscreen and the rifle make for a round not penetrating. As for the drive by... SS109 rounds will go through the car door, remember there is not only the door but the glass when the window is down, and then the door panel and all the mechanical things inside the door, either shoot high, upper chest or shoot low towards the legs. Door panels have the arm rests that are typically foam filled and most of the mechanical items are just below the arm rest.
variablebinary
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My Self Defense load is Federal 62gr bonded JSP and it will jack you up through auto glass big time. Good barrier penetration, soft tissue damage and expansion
Ignition Override
Member
Along with a semi-auto, how about a compact Mosin Nagant 44 near the front door?
With Bulgarian HB ammo, I plinked at a large, depleted steel oxygen bottle, and the steel-core rounds came out the other side (rear steel wall) with a hole twice the diameter of the entry hole! Classicarms Inc should ship fairly quickly, as they did to my store back in December.
As for semi-automatics, your M-1 should do pretty well. It allowed our guys in WW2 to sometimes out-shoot the enemies' Mauser rifles.
If you develop a warning system with your neighbor and a plan as to who shoots which weapon, this might help.
How about a light sensor built into the road (maybe run a detector beam over the road-if they would come from one direction) , to switch on a' burglar type' of bright light, which somebody will always notice?
With Bulgarian HB ammo, I plinked at a large, depleted steel oxygen bottle, and the steel-core rounds came out the other side (rear steel wall) with a hole twice the diameter of the entry hole! Classicarms Inc should ship fairly quickly, as they did to my store back in December.
As for semi-automatics, your M-1 should do pretty well. It allowed our guys in WW2 to sometimes out-shoot the enemies' Mauser rifles.
If you develop a warning system with your neighbor and a plan as to who shoots which weapon, this might help.
How about a light sensor built into the road (maybe run a detector beam over the road-if they would come from one direction) , to switch on a' burglar type' of bright light, which somebody will always notice?
You might not be able to find Hesco barriers, but any decent construction supply house can get you gabions: http://www.gabions.net/products.html
Fill them with rocks and you have an effective barrier.
Fill them with rocks and you have an effective barrier.
Hiaboo
Member
http://www.brassfetcher.com/M-855 (FBI Car Door test).html
This is just interesting data which applies to this thread, is all.
This is just interesting data which applies to this thread, is all.
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