How effective is .223 against cars?

[MD_Willington]

You know even "crappy" old 123gr wolf 7.62x39 FMJ can make a mess out of 1/4" mild steel plate... Car doors would be like paper... Even older domestic cars... We demo derby so we're used to the varying thickness of rolled steel used in autos... trust me, in a newer car it is nothing.

 

[EHCRain10]

does anybody have penetration data on a 12ga slug?
seems to me that one well aimed shot at the driver would be effective, why disable the car when hitting the driver and maybe even the front passenger would more than get your point across?

 

[junyo]

Of the weapons onhand, I think I'd go with the shotgun. Again, you're really not interested in stopping the car, so much as stopping the operators of the car. Getting lead into the passenger compartment as efficiently as possible. Extended tube, 00 buck and slugs; each trigger pull is putting 9 projectiles in the general area, or a slug, which will go through most car construction like butter and retain enough energy to ruin someone's day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4KsHeRN56A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HK9IcN734I

The other question is tactics. Regardless of weapon, do you have a plan for responding to a vehicle borne threat? Simply dumping bullets into the car ain't the answer by itself. Even something that can immediately crack the engine block or take out the driver won't really do you a whole lot of good if the vehicle's already headed for you at 60 miles per and you've got no place to run. Whether the occupants are shooting or not, the vehicle itself is a massive projectile that doesn't readily stop. It can be driven into your living room if someone's crazy enough. In the event of a problem, it will likely be at fairly close range, and assuming they're somewhat rational actors, they'll attack when they perceive that you're least prepared, getting the mail or doing yard work. Got a plan for what happens if you get caught with only your sidearm, or made provision so that can't happen?

 

[camslam]

I've had people ask me:

"What do you need a semi-auto, Barrett .50 cal rifle for?"

To which I would reply:

"For just such events as these."

-----------------------------------------------------------

In all seriousness, this is why I have 3" 12 gauge slugs that fire 1 1/4 oz lead slugs. Those have some serious penetration power.

I would get an AK or semi-auto .308 as well.

But that Barrett is the way to go if you can afford it, I have hunch not many of us can.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Forget about the engine with a poodle shooter - Just as the way to stop an animal dead in its tracks is to hit the computer room controlling the animal (brain or spine), the way to stop a car full of thugs is to focus solely on the "brain" of the car until it stops - the driver. Then you will have time and opportunity to go to work on the remainder of the occupants. Once there's 150 lbs or more of (literally) dead weight in the driver's seat, with blood splattered all over, and probably glass too, it would take awhile to remove him and get the car going again.

Hornady Tap will reliably go through doors and car winshield. No .223 will reliably stop an engine. You would want a .50 bmg or an AP .30-06 round to reliably kill the engine block.

 

[sinistr]

wow,you are in a tight spot.you say you are in a frame house?i would have an internal barrier of some kind(sand bags?)one camera,if possible to see them coming.as far as arms go,if this isn't a case of someone needing a drum fed saiga 12,i don't know what is.of firearms you described,i would use m1 2 3/4 inch mag 000.you would get a good pattern at that range.then go to the garand if needed.im pretty sure you can get '06 ap still.if you have the flow or can trade get a .308.fn,m1a,91....it doesn't matter.personally,if i were in that situation, it would be buckshot and slugs,lots of them.multiple weapons around the house. semi auto if possible.

 

[ChopMeat]

I saw a guy fire a 5.56 incendiary round (M889) into an old car with four dummies inside it. The round went in the passenger side window and quickly started a fire inside the car. My thoughts were, dam that would be messed up, if someone used one of these rounds in that situation. I have look for these rounds, but have not been able to find any lately. Oh yeah, the car burned up. Bang Pop and Burn.

 

[rcmodel]

Since you said you have an M-1 Garand, why even ask about anything else?
Especially anything else in .223?

We had a shooting here many years ago.
Guy found his buddy in bed with guy's wife. Buddy ran out the door and drove off. (And this was when men were real men, and cars were real cars!)

Guy stepped out the door with a Johnson semi-auto & AP ammo and double-tapped the car from about 100 yards as it sped away.

The result = Two holes through the trunk lid, back seat, front seat, Buddy, dash, firewall, and grill.

Buddy was DRT.
Guy is/was in prison for murder.

rcmodel

 

[Boats]

This is one application where those pictured AKs in 7.62x39 with a reliable drum mag backed by 30 rounders in a commie ammo vest, with a 15-18 shot 9mm pistol as the NY reload might be the best medicine.

Being able to bring a high rate of sustained fire as a lone defender against multiple assailants is about the best way to even bad odds. The Garand and the shotgun are too capacity limited and the Kahr and Mini too ammo weak for my comfort in like circumstances.

An Arsenal SLR-107 with 124gr FMJ and a Smith M&P9 with 147gr Winchester Ranger Bonded would be my battery for the OP's scenario.

 

[atlanticfire]

Like what KingJoey said, I have loaded some back tip tungsten core rounds into my 308 and shot through ¾ plate steel without any problems. I keep a few on hand just for some weird scenario. One never knows when they might some in handy.

 

[kcmarine]

No one posted it!!! YESSSSSSSSSS!!!

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/thebuickotruth.htm


Everything you want to know about combat rounds and what happens when they meet a car.

 

[Funderb]

Methinks it is better to maim/kill the people shooting at you than to try and keep the car from moving. If you do that you now have the armed occupants of the car shooting at you more because they are now stuck and, in turn, returning defensive fire.

Judging by the every day thug, who knows where that sh$% it going to go.

 

[CYANIDEGENOCIDE]

tungsten eh? where might one pick up something of that variety?
'06 I've shot has been steel penentrator from a 18" barrel that punches through 5/8" steel if its a direct hit. A glancing shot of more than 15 degrees will still make a hole through and through but the penetrator sticks in the plate

 

[strat81]

Hornady Tap will reliably go through doors and car winshield.

Not all TAP is the same. I would not trust 55gr TAP FPD (V-Max) to get the job done.

 

[Andras]

I know that M855 will go through the car door and both sides of a propane tank in the backseat, out of a 20" A2.

 

[GLOCKADODADOO]

Jackdanson

Back in the day when men where men & sheep where nervous.... Oh! Sorry bout' that ! But when I was about 19 back in the ol' 70's when cars where made out of real body metal " thicker " then today's beer can body's. My dad had a single shot 12 guage & @ the time we had a ol' junker car my dad was partin' out.

I asked the ol' man if I could see if a deer slug would go thru it. Which shootin' @ about 40 yrds. & with 2 3/4 inch shells proceed to go thru the left rear quarter panel, thru the front & rear seats & out the right front quarter panel. Just like a drill bit !!

Oh! It will also go thru a railroad tie @ that distance also !

OH ! Teenage memories !!!

 

[Blacksmoke]

Things have only gotten worse in rural NM huh? Is this about drugs, race, old fued? If I were you I would get with the sheriff unless he's in on it, then go to state police they don't f around. Anyway let them know whats happening and maybe ask for some sort of restraining order against them. This at least will document your problems with this gang so when they are swelling up in the hot sun in front of your house you can say I told you so. NM politics is nasty as I'm sure you know so if these punks have somebody in high places you might as well just move and live or go out in a blaze. Some here might think this is BS but the old south and its cronyism doesn't have jack on The Land of Entrapment.

-X rap

The State Police District Captain told me in 2005 (following an enormous burglary loss) he does not have to man power to perform routine plice patrols, aks "Community Policing". Today, I learned from the family that was the target of the drive-by that they called the NM State Police to complain about the car crusing back and forth in front of their house with rifles and pistols brandished out the windows and threats being hollered by the occupants. She was told that since the State Police does not have enough funds for fuel they cannot respond to a call for help unless there is a violent felony in process or an accident involving serious injury of loss of life. So, no cops came.

Last night, after the State Police found the funds to fill their tanks and drive out here to arrest the shooter/driver father, his son ( who had been arrested previously for attempted murder and released) was cooking methamphetamine in the kitchen. An explosion resulted and their house burned down. The son has not been seen since but neighbors reported a stream of young men leaving the burning house.

The target of this drive by shooting last Sunday is a 78 year old retiree, his wife, son, daughter-in-law, and grandkids.

 

[Blacksmoke]

Since you said you have an M-1 Garand, why even ask about anything else?

-rcmodel

Eight rounds compared to 30 in an AK fired by the badguys. Oh, do I wish for a BAR.

 

[BobCat]

Do you sleep? If so, are there other people in your home who will either wake you promptly, or return fire in your stead, if your home is the subject of a drive-by? I'm not asking for an answer, it is none of my business, just raising the issue that no one individual, no matter how well armed, can confidently foresee prevailing against an attack that can come at any time.

The Garand (and I hope to G-d the cops don't take it if you need to use it, but they will) is your constant companion. Eight rounds, yes, but it is fast to reload and even surplus M2 ball will get into the car, no problem.

No reason not to have the little gun ready to go - 30 rounds of .223 (any load - 55 grain ball or one of the more special rounds everyone is mentioning) is at least enough to make the attackers keep their heads down and spoil their aim. But the Garand is potent, reliable, and plenty accurate for this task.

I am personally amazed and appalled that you are receiving so little support from local law enforcement. Maybe I've just lead a very sheltered life.

I wish you well, and furthermore hope you are really just teasing everyone here. That is, I hope your story is not true, that there is no criminal gang of halfwits about to shoot up your house with you and your family in it. If it is indeed true, may John Moses Browning and John C. Garand hold you close. All the best.

Regards,
Andrew

 

[bwavec]

Time to drag the "ma deuce" up out of the basement and set it up on the roof

 

[Blacksmoke]

This story is dead true. I have written a lengthy email to the city editor of the Albuquerque Journal North Edition- M. Easterling. My next letter will be to the Governor. This end of the county is largely low to moderate income Hispanos- farmers, molybendum miners, building tradesmen. The government at all levels could not give a lesser hoot about us here as is evident from the almost total lack of government dollars in this community. This area is very much like nearby Tierra Amarilla, the seen of the 1967 armed uprising of "Tejerinistas" in which a District Attorney and State Police Officer died in a gun battle. The Army Guard eventually was dispatched, complete with M60 Tanks, to recapture the county courthouse building and arrest the Tejerinista insurgents. This story was covered by national media at the time.

So, this is no joke. I loaded the Mini-14 with ammo labled "Lake City M885". The tips have some kind of green coating. I do not know much about this ammo. Can anyone fill me in? I also have the Mossberg 835 loaded with 3.5 inch "OO", 16 pellet buckshot, two Series 80 Colts, a Colt Trooper with 200 grain jacketed flat point bullets and a S&W Mountain Gun in .45 Colt with 255 grain lead flatnose rated at 900 fps.

 

[Blacksmoke]

Time to drag the "ma deuce" up out of the basement and set it up on the roof

-bwavec

Right now I would settle for that BAR I keep praying for.

 

[Z-Michigan]

So, this is no joke. I loaded the Mini-14 with ammo labled "Lake City M885". The tips have some kind of green coating.

That should be M855. That is current mil-spec ammo and is your #1 choice if you're going to use your Mini-14. It is 62gr FMJ with a steel penetrator tip. It will do as well on cars as anything in .223 will that you can realistically get*. As Lake City ammo it is the same as what is used by the US military and should be high quality, at least in terms of reliability. (Accuracy is not there with match ammo, but will be as good or better than your Mini-14 will shoot.)
[* the military may have access to M995 AP ammo with a tungsten penetrator. I don't think this is in much military use and I'll be astonished if it's available to civilians.]

You're in a terrible situation and honestly I'm really glad I'm not there. Of your current choices I personally would use the M1 Garand, with as many 8-rd clips loaded as I had available (or at least 10-15 if you have dozens of them).

But, if your situation possibly allows, I would get either a .308 battle rifle, or a semiauto 12ga shotgun with as much capacity as possible, and loading 000 buck (8 pellet each).

On the shotgun side, a Saiga 12 would be your best choice - good luck finding one. Runner up would be a Mossberg 930SPX, FN SLP, Winchester's tactical model (same as the FN), or a Remington 1100 tactical.

On the rifle side, any of: PTR91, FN-FAL, AR10 (including LAR-8, DPMS model, SAR-25, etc.), or a Saiga .308, again if you can find one. CDNN is in Abilene and has the PTR's at a good price. I don't know if they have a retail store, but they could certainly ship to your local FFL quickly. Any of these would compare well to the BAR, though aren't as heavy. I think the Saiga, PTR and FAL would be tops in reliability, and among those I'd choose based on price and availability.

Before seeing the test results of 000 buck on sheet metal and gelatin I would have chosen the rifle, but after seeing those the shotgun looks pretty compelling.

I would have all responsible family members armed with a rifle or shotgun at all times. The Mini-14 would be perfect for someone who can't manage the recoil of the bigger stuff.

 

[X-Rap]

Well smoke watch your ass and keep us informed. I wish I lived closer but I must be a good 350 mi. away in west cent. Co. sounds like you could use some help.
You got more advice than you can shake a stick at from all us Mall Ninjas but stick to the guns you got when you need em and use em well.
Good Luck and be careful.
PS don't use to much duct tape sticking those skillets to your chest and back

 

[Blacksmoke]

On the rifle side, any of: PTR91, FN-FAL, AR10 (including LAR-8, DPMS model, SAR-25, etc.), or a Saiga .308, again if you can find one. CDNN is in Abilene and has the PTR's at a good price. I don't know if they have a retail store, but they could certainly ship to your local FFL quickly. Any of these would compare well to the BAR, though aren't as heavy. I think the Saiga, PTR and FAL would be tops in reliability, and among those I'd choose based on price and availability.

-z Michigan

I am not familar with any of these. The FN, was that the British Army's rifle after the SMLE? What about these Springfield M1As I read about. They are expensive but much the same as the Garand which I understand.

I have about 80 rounds (4 X 20) of this M855 or M885 Lake City. The boxes are printed M885, maybe that was a misprint and why the distrbutor had them to sell? I do not know. They do have a green tip. I also added a Ruger Redhawk to the list of stuff here. Everything else is locked up in safes.

Hopefully, the idiot son- Marco, has fled the area for the safety of another state or Old Mexico and his father will not be released anytime soon. Busted on a Friday night should mean all week-end in jail with arraignment on Monday at the earliest.

No family here. Just me and five dogs and the livestock. The dogs all want to sleep inside except my Black and Tan Hound. He stays at the front gate. I also have four "Attack Geese" in the back yard. No ****, they are trouble for the unwary. Besides clacking at the slightest disturbance, the gander (male) will attack anything strange in the daytime. It may not sound like much but you should see how people react to an angry goose flying across the ground at them with wings spread. Well, they will make noise if disturbed. So, that is about it. Thanks for all the helpful suggestions and kind thoughts. Many of my neighbors are doing about the same as me and waiting for the next incident with guns loaded, primed and locked. Speaking of loaded and primed I just remembered four pounds of FFFg powder in the barn. I wonder if I should construct an explosive device that can be hurled?